The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[aramis]

'Huscarles' in the Imperium means what the Imperium means by 'huscarles'. Which is not the same thing as what early medieval Scandinavians meant.


Hans

And some Heorthganete and Huscarles were used away from the lords, many Thegns wrre vassals, thegns were never huscarles, and most stereotypical "viking" elements owe more to Maestro Wagner than to History. Same with Feudalism and Sir Thos. Mallory.

The 3I concept is close enough to 6th C Scandinavian for valid comparisons.

But let's unpack a fww terms for them.

• Jarl: the noble class. Men were usually warriors.
• Thegn: a social class of high-born warriors. Equivalent to Knights or Gentry, relatively, but less aloof than later medieval gentry due to harsher conditions.
• Ceorl or Carl: social class of Freedman or freeborn, could be warriors or craftsmen. Degraded thegns might be allowed to be Ceorls, but might not.
• Heorthganete: Hearth Guards, could be house thegns, ceorls, even trusted bondsmen.
• Huscarls: literally, ceorls of the house. Freeman paid to fight for the lord, usually including lodging, food, and loot. Full time professionals, usually. Sometimes also used for skilled ceorl craftsmen on patronage, but if that's period use, I can't verify.

Keep in mind that the huscarles might be the only full time soldiers, that lords seldom sent troops without going too, and there begins the "eliteness of the huscarles. "

Illegitimi non corborundum.

 

[LeperColony]

since it defines all squadrons in the numbered fleets as either colonial or regular, and makes it clear regulars are not in the reserve fleet, there is no basis for the rest of your speculation.

The squadrons are called Colonial. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily part of the Planetary Navy, any more than if they were called Cheese squadrons then it would mean they are made of Gouda.

It says local systems MAY raise their own jump capable warships which would be Colonial squadrons. It also says the Imperium maintains Reserve Fleets, one per subsector, which are crewed by people in the service of the Imperium.

That makes it pretty clear that not all Colonial Squadrons are necessarily raised by local worlds. Pretty good basis for speculation, actually.

Local planets may be buying or even seconded IN vessels, but the squadrons are colonial, and thus belong to one or more local worlds.

There is no evidence that the Reserve Fleet comes solely from Planetary Navies. In fact, the opposite is true. All we know is that the Reserve fleet is grouped into units called Colonial Squadrons, some of whom come from local navies.

In fact, the very nature of the Reserve Fleet tends to militate the concept that all Colonial Squadrons are locally raised, for several reasons:

1) Reserve Fleets are made up of "obsolescent but still useful" ships. If the Reserve Fleet is an Imperial structure (which it is), consisting of surplus IN vessels then it makes sense that the ships are older. Either the IN puts them in the Reserve Fleet when the ship is withdrawn from frontline service, or the ship is sold/granted to a world as part of its Planetary Navy (and is then organized into one of the Colonial Squadrons). However, many worlds would be capable of raising front line vessels of TL-15 caliber.

2) If you look at the counter mix for FFW, the Colonial Squadrons are a very robust force. While border planets may have a need to raise an entire Batron, most do not (and many who have the need probably lack the means). Unless you contemplate the Imperium directing Planetary Naval construction, which I don't, then the only way you can be sure to meet your strategic goals if you're the Imperium is to maintain a reserve structure under your own direction.

3) The Rebellion Sourcebook specifically states that the Imperium maintains the Reserve Fleets. While maintains is not defined, what I take it to mean is that it is part of the Imperial Naval structure, and it is funded by the Imperium from the 30% military tithe.

 

[rancke]

Supplement 3 says Jewell is administered as part of the Regina Subsector government. That is circa 1105. SMC says the same (p 18). Counts are not part of interstellar government in CT nor MT. (other than moot votes.)

Counts are admittedly not usually part of Imperial interstellar government. But then, subsectors are not usually not run by dukes. Jewell, however, is not run by a duke. At least, I don't think the person in charge of Jewell would be a duke. If you want to insist that a single line about how the Imperium is organized absolutely does not allow for any exceptions whatsoever, go right ahead, but I'm going to believe that exceptions do occur, and to me "an Imperial region answering to the Duke of Regina" (which is the exact quote) sounds pretty much like it would probably be a county.

But even if Jewell is an Imperial Region under a Lord High Muckytimuck appointed by the Duke of Regina rather than a county, it is still not a duchy, so my point stands: Subsectors are not always duchies despite Traveller material treating the two terms as synonymous. This is sloppy and subject to misunderstandings, so distinguishing between the two would be a good habit to get into.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Counts are admittedly not usually part of Imperial interstellar government. But then, subsectors are not usually not run by dukes. Jewell, however, is not run by a duke.

Why aren't counts part of Imperial interstellar government? In MT:Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 13, it says High Nobles "directly administer Imperial territories and are responsible to the emperor."

On pg. 15 it says counts are "associated with two or three worlds in a subsector."

 

[aramis]

Jewell has a duke, Hans... the Duke of Regina. (smc, 18)

Aramis might not. .. the castle in TTA is for the Marquis. Or, there might also be a Duke, as well, who might or might not be related. (IMTU, the Duke of Aramis uses the Marqisate of Aramis as the heir title, but also divulfes world rep duty to the Marquis.)

 

[whulorigan]

Unified Armies of the Imperium

Well, under the terrible Unified Armies concept of GT:Ground Forces, all armies contribute directly to the central Imperial Army.

I believe this idea was made explicit in T4: Milieu 0.

GT: Ground Forces merely expanded upon the concept.


T4: Milieu 0, p.33-34:

Role of the Imperial Army
.
.
.
The training of world armies is a major occupation much valued by the member worlds. Whereas the Imperial Navy is growing to be a centralized force, with only minor local, or “colony” squadrons, the Army is already heavily decentralized. Each world maintains its own army, but commits a number of battalions for off-world duties. The whole world army is trained by the Sylean cadre, or the now much expanded Imperial Army, so as to bring it up to a common standard. Major maneuver units are pulled together as and when needed, with battalions drawn from a multiplicity of worlds. It is the Marines who bear the brunt of any ground combat, and so far the Imperium has seen few wars of the scale which would require significant Army intervention.

 

[LeperColony]

I believe this idea was made explicit in T4: Milieu 0.

GT: Ground Forces merely expanded upon the concept.


T4: Milieu 0, p.33-34:

That sort of system makes sense at the dawn of the Imperium, because it allows for the rapid absorption of newly incorporated regions in a way that increases, rather than decreases, the ability to expand.

 

[aramis]

Why aren't counts part of Imperial interstellar government? In MT:Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 13, it says High Nobles "directly administer Imperial territories and are responsible to the emperor."

On pg. 15 it says counts are "associated with two or three worlds in a subsector."

because the JTAS article on the law in the 3I explicitly states that interstellar government begins at the subsector level, as does TTB. There are canonical exceptions, bodies political that joined as a polity, and captive government worlds not owned by the Imperium.

Note that a sector or subsector duke makes laws. no lesser noble does so off his fiefs. "associated" =/= rules. The law article implies a role as chief prosecutor and chief tax collector.

 

[savage]

In a discussion of Colonial forces, we need to be careful to determine which Canon texts we use as the foundation and what is being built.

Rebellion sourcebook is covering that time during 3I's demise. They would be different than during the height of the 5th Frontier War. During Rebellion Colonial forces would not be Imperium sponsored but noble house to expand their influence. On a different scale, in the series Dune noble military forces are capable of putting a duke on the throne. Earlier in 3I their purpose would be expansion and may be financially supported by the Imperium not only the noble house.

Reserve forces described earlier are typically mothballed and on hold waiting for reactivation. The DG Journal scenario where one faction enters a Depot to steal 20+ capital ships is a perfect example. And perhaps the unwillingness of Depot's to cooperate in the downward spiral of the Great Third Imperium.

Although, it could have gone farther the GT Nobles book does a nice job of adding detail to the mysterious nobles of the Imperium. A discussion of Huscarles is extremely interesting but sources need to be a concern. These forces changed their goals, resources and makeup during the Rebellion.

A detailed product to feed canon on these other forces is long overdue.
I think one of the challenges is variation. They'll consist of every option unless mandates and limitations are set within Imperial law.

 

[rancke]

Why aren't counts part of Imperial interstellar government? In MT:Imperial Encyclopedia, pg 13, it says High Nobles "directly administer Imperial territories and are responsible to the emperor."

It's a passage from LDAM, p. 7:

"...Interstellar government begins at the subsector level -- on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke..."​

On pg. 15 it says counts are "associated with two or three worlds in a subsector."

It says "associated with" not "rules". The passage above implies that counts do not as a general rule exercise governmental authority over their clusters.

Jewell has a duke, Hans... the Duke of Regina. (smc, 18)

By that logic Jewell is ruled by an emperor. Jewell is not ruled by a duke at the subsector level. Jewell is explicitly the subsector capital and the Duke of Regina does not have his capital on Jewell. Whoever does have his capital on Jewell rules Jewell Subsector.

Aramis might not. .. the castle in TTA is for the Marquis. Or, there might also be a Duke, as well, who might or might not be related. (IMTU, the Duke of Aramis uses the Marqisate of Aramis as the heir title, but also divulfes world rep duty to the Marquis.)

IMTU the Marquis of Aramis is a vassal¹ of the Count of Celepina who is a vassal of the Duke of Rhylanor. This also happens to be how things are in the OTU.

¹ In the meaning of the term used in the Imperium, which is not actual vassalage but a part of a chain of authority for Imperial nobles.​

Hans

 

[LeperColony]

It's a passage from LDAM, p. 7:
"...Interstellar government begins at the subsector level -- on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke..."


It says "associated with" not "rules". The passage above implies that counts do not as a general rule exercise governmental authority over their clusters.

It says Interstellar governmet, but not Imperial government. So counts can be involved in administering Imperial interests on specific worlds (even several such worlds), but as there is no level of interstellar organization smaller than the subsector, they are not involved in interstellar government.

 

[rancke]

It says Interstellar governmet, but not Imperial government.

It's talking about Imperial government. I didn't quote the whole paragraph (as indicated by the ellipses).

So counts can be involved in administering Imperial interests on specific worlds (even several such worlds), but as there is no level of interstellar organization smaller than the subsector, they are not involved in interstellar government.

Imperial interests, yes, quite plausible¹, but usually planetary affairs are run by planetary governments.

¹ Though there is also an Imperial bureaucracy around and the relationship between that and Imperial nobles are not explained anywhere until GT:Nobles (Where the bureaucracy (staffed partly by honor nobles) runs the day-to-day affairs and the high nobles acts like a kind of ombudsmen and step in when things goes wrong).​

Hans

 

[savage]

It's talking about Imperial government. I didn't quote the whole paragraph (as indicated by the ellipses).


Imperial interests, yes, quite plausible¹, but usually planetary affairs are run by planetary governments.

Hans

I completely agree with this simply put it keeps the noble in power. If the noble is in the day to day governing he can be pulled into stability and popularity issues.

 

[rancke]

I completely agree with this simply put it keeps the noble in power. If the noble is in the day to day governing he can be pulled into stability and popularity issues.

Plus he violates Article 1 of the Imperium's founding document: "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world."


Hans

 

[savage]

Plus he violates Article 1 of the Imperium's founding document: "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world."


Hans

Hans, good point! However, I must caveat this stating the Universe and the Imperium are not perfect places. I suspect there are many violations that are not recognized formally.

Also, this is why I don't buy into the Regency successfully disposing of it's TNE nobility. IMTU it resulted in widespread corruption. Nobles form an important role in an interstellar empire beyond leadership. They establish direction for world growth and often the grease needed to move the gears.

 

[rancke]

Hans, good point! However, I must caveat this stating the Universe and the Imperium are not perfect places. I suspect there are many violations that are not recognized formally.

Oh, absolutely. One dodge that we know of from canon is the 'two hats" setup. It's not the Imperial noble who exercises direct governance of the world, it's the world ruler who just happens to also be an Imperial noble. Delphine of Mora and Leonard of Aramis are examples. I suggested a couple of other dodges in an earlier post. One that I didn't mention is that the Imperium would be able to exercise direct governance over worlds that are not members.


Hans

 

[savage]

The next good fleet question would be fleet division. You have 4 naval bases in Lemish subsector and two Fleets, 105th and 60th. There are several ways to break up these fleets. What do you think would be the best? Each fleet has 2 bases or 4?
1. A batron/cruron... in each port
2. A fleet primary and secondary base
3. Something else.

 

[Drakon]

The next good fleet question would be fleet division. You have 4 naval bases in Lemish subsector and two Fleets, 105th and 60th. There are several ways to break up these fleets. What do you think would be the best? Each fleet has 2 bases or 4?
1. A batron/cruron... in each port
2. A fleet primary and secondary base
3. Something else.

6 naval bases.
Lemish Class A Starport
Weyland Class B
Ginning Class A
Alfive Class B
Tamilaa Class B
Aurolee Class B

Tamilee and Aurolee appear to be essentially forward bases and seem that, depending on what the Vargr have been up to, would have the heavy hitters of forces deployed up there. There would be a naval presence at each of the other bases.

How exactly the fleets are made up, and exactly where they are homeported needs to be discussed with the duke. I have assumed that fleet headquarters would be in Lemish since the duke has his subsector capital here.

 

[savage]

6 naval bases.
Lemish Class A Starport
Weyland Class B
Ginning Class A
Alfive Class B
Tamilaa Class B
Aurolee Class B

Tamilee and Aurolee appear to be essentially forward bases and seem that, depending on what the Vargr have been up to, would have the heavy hitters of forces deployed up there. There would be a naval presence at each of the other bases.

How exactly the fleets are made up, and exactly where they are homeported needs to be discussed with the duke. I have assumed that fleet headquarters would be in Lemish since the duke has his subsector capital here.

Naval Bases and the structure of the fleet fall under fleet ops and planning.
Thanks for the correction. I admit I took a quick look at the subsector. This was a random subsector choice for continuing discussions.
Also note in the Wiki it is Voeggr and on travellermap Alfive.

To my knowlege Marc has assigned no sector/subsector Duke patents. He did offer Archduke patents but there we're no buyers.

So 6 bases and two fleets. The question still remains. I'd say that each Fleet maintains 2 B starports and is headquartered in an A starport.

Any other thoughts?

 

[rancke]

How exactly the fleets are made up, and exactly where they are homeported needs to be discussed with the duke. I have assumed that fleet headquarters would be in Lemish since the duke has his subsector capital here.

Wait, what?!? Lemish is the subsector capital!?!

Holy guacamoly, you're right! I never realized that. No wonder you think the baron would have a duke hovering over him.

I wonder why Strephon chose Lemish over Alfive (2209), a world with a population 500 times that of Lemish (albeit with a technology two levels lower). But at least Alfive is on the X-boat network¹.

¹ Not that that would matter if the Duke gets his orders and sends his reports by IN courier. :devil:​

Perhaps Strephon was well and truly annoyed by the duke-to-be. I can just see the audience for me:

Duke-to-be: "Thank you for the audience, Your Imperial Majesty. Let me begin by apologizing once more for that unfortunate inci..."

Strephon: "Get up, get up, don't give it another thought my dear fellow, I've forgotten all about it. In fact, I've decided to elevate you to high duke. I'm giving you the Duchy of Lemish! There's glory for you, eh?"

Duke: "Your Imperial Majesty is too kind."

Strephon: "And that's not all! I'm also giving you 128 hexes of splendid farmland on Lemish for your ducal fief. Oh, that reminds me, here is your permission to raise huscarles. Since Lemish is a border duchy, I've made it permission for TWO brigades."

Duke: "Your Imperial Majesty, I'm at a loss for words."

Strephon: "I bet you are. <snigger> <he he he> <haw haw haw> :rofl: <BWA-HAH-HAH!!!> Ahem... sorry about that. Frog in my throat."​

Or perhaps the duke was a filthy rich honor duke that spent his money in ways that annoyed Strephon. If so, he could actually afford a brigade or two of huscarles.


Hans