The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[rancke]

Naval Bases and the structure of the fleet fall under fleet ops and planning.

But the location of the subsector admiralty falls under ducal whim.

Thanks for the correction. I admit I took a quick look at the subsector. This was a random subsector choice for continuing discussions.
Also note in the Wiki it is Voeggr and on travellermap Alfive.

On the wiki map it's Voegrr; in the data list it is Alfive.

So 6 bases and two fleets. The question still remains. I'd say that each Fleet maintains 2 B starports and is headquartered in an A starport.

The senior admiral will have to stay on Lemish, within comm call of his political master. The other fleet admiral can be argued either way, he can either be on Lemish too or he can be somewhere in the trailing half of the duchy covering that half. Flip a coin or roll a die. Or select the option you think will give whatever narrative results you prefer.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Naval Bases and the structure of the fleet fall under fleet ops and planning.
Thanks for the correction. I admit I took a quick look at the subsector. This was a random subsector choice for continuing discussions.
Also note in the Wiki it is Voeggr and on travellermap Alfive.

To my knowlege Marc has assigned no sector/subsector Duke patents. He did offer Archduke patents but there we're no buyers.

So 6 bases and two fleets. The question still remains. I'd say that each Fleet maintains 2 B starports and is headquartered in an A starport.

Any other thoughts?

Wait, 4 fleets? The 1060 and 1105 reserve fleets are around here somewhere. Are they based in Lemish subsector or with the reserves at Depot? I get the impression they are co based with the regular fleets but I could be mistaken.

So, one possibility is 1 fleet at Ginning and one fleet at Lemish, as home port, and the rest of the bases as support? Hmmm, let me think on it. Again these are questions above my paygrade

I've noted some discrepancies in the Travellerwiki, but I am sure that is based on conflicting published information. Offering updates to the relevant articles on Travellerwiki is on my to do list, once I get Lemish all fleshed out. Whoever is running the site must be up to his eyeballs in alligators.

 

[Drakon]

Wait, what?!? Lemish is the subsector capital!?!

Holy guacamoly, you're right! I never realized that. No wonder you think the baron would have a duke hovering over him.

I wonder why Strephon chose Lemish over Alfive (2209), a world with a population 500 times that of Lemish (albeit with a technology two levels lower). But at least Alfive is on the X-boat network¹.

It is somewhat confusing to me as well. But one must assume that the Emperor and his dukes know what they are doing in making such decisions.

Lemish, like Naadi and Khukish are all within 6 parsecs of Kaasu. Perhaps that is one reason? (Strand, Kouth and Ian are not within 6 parsecs of the capital)

 

[savage]

Wait, 4 fleets? The 1060 and 1105 reserve fleets are around here somewhere. Are they based in Lemish subsector or with the reserves at Depot? I get the impression they are co based with the regular fleets but I could be mistaken.

So, one possibility is 1 fleet at Ginning and one fleet at Lemish, as home port, and the rest of the bases as support? Hmmm, let me think on it. Again these are questions above my paygrade

I've noted some discrepancies in the Travellerwiki, but I am sure that is based on conflicting published information. Offering updates to the relevant articles on Travellerwiki is on my to do list, once I get Lemish all fleshed out. Whoever is running the site must be up to his eyeballs in alligators.

There is evidence to suggest a majority of the Reserves are mothballed in Corridor.

 

[savage]

But the location of the subsector admiralty falls under ducal whim.

The senior admiral will have to stay on Lemish, within comm call of his political master. The other fleet admiral can be argued either way, he can either be on Lemish too or he can be somewhere in the trailing half of the duchy covering that half. Flip a coin or roll a die. Or select the option you think will give whatever narrative results you prefer.


Hans

There is no evidence to suggest the Duke has a overruling statement on the location of naval/scout bases. Even if they do it is up to the admiralty to determine strength and unit. The Duke does not hold naval rank automatically. A noble may have influence on his local military assets in MT. We have seen signs of it. When command chain collapses (Rebellion) DG has suggested the Archduke/Dukes have a greater role in holding the military together.

That being said Hans. There are a number unknowns in naval command. However, what we do know is;
1. The Admiralty has jurisdiction over the navy.
2. Reserve fleets are, at least in part, in Depot Mothballs for economics reasons. As discussed in CT.
3. Corridor Fleet consists of elements from all subsectors.
4. There are numerous admiralty positions in the Imperium Naval Forces.


Out of 2000+ Kickstarter participants I seem to be the only one to build a job role on the patent into my naval character. There are many dukes floating about SM. I did not choose grandpooba... However, I did see one Order of the Arrows from another patent.

IMTU,
My character, Flt Adm John C. Savage, is the only surviving member of the Corridor's Admiralty in TNE. He is not king, emperor or anything of the sort. Perhaps the only survivor outside of the Regency. So, I am asking questions for opinions to better address the characteristics of Corridor that are not in Canon.

Once again, Anyone want to venture a guess on how to break up naval forces in our example, Lemish subsector? Other subsectors are easier.

Thanks much!

 

[savage]

It is somewhat confusing to me as well. But one must assume that the Emperor and his dukes know what they are doing in making such decisions.

Lemish, like Naadi and Khukish are all within 6 parsecs of Kaasu. Perhaps that is one reason? (Strand, Kouth and Ian are not within 6 parsecs of the capital)

As a high risk region for 500 years, it makes military and economic sense to put numerous bases, subsector capitals within jump range of the sector capital and the depot.

These things would have transpired after the Vargr Wars, but seriously not the best planning. But let's look at our own capitals. Also not the best, locations.

 

[savage]

I've noted some discrepancies in the Travellerwiki, but I am sure that is based on conflicting published information. Offering updates to the relevant articles on Travellerwiki is on my to do list, once I get Lemish all fleshed out. Whoever is running the site must be up to his eyeballs in alligators.

In T5, Depot dropped from TL15 to TL14 which makes no sense. This was a CT problem. All Depots are not the same, but they should be Imperium standard TL. Population was another concern. Traveller is riddled with "huhs".

 

[savage]

...
Duke: "Your Imperial Majesty, I'm at a loss for words."

Strephon: "I bet you are...Frog in my throat."[/INDENT]
Or perhaps the duke was a filthy rich honor duke that spent his money in ways that annoyed Strephon. If so, he could actually afford a brigade or two of huscarles.


Hans

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Ok. I am speachless. That's great.

I seem to be reading threads backwards today.

 

[rancke]

There is no evidence to suggest the Duke has a overruling statement on the location of naval/scout bases.

The duke, the sector duke or the Emperor. That's how it has usually been done when the civilian government directs the military. The military asks the government for money and the government parcels out the money. An admiral doesn't decide where to build a major fleet base, because the budget he controls is far too meager for that sort of expenditures.

Even if they do it is up to the admiralty to determine strength and unit. The Duke does not hold naval rank automatically.

I think he does, actually. Note how in the FFW game Duke Norris, without the warrant, has command authority over all the other one star admirals in or out of Regina Subsector. And Norris had left the Imperial Navy with the rank of commander. I can't think of any other source of his command authority than his ducal rank.

But be that as it may, he doesn't need military command authority over units assigned to his own personal duchy. He just needs civilian authority over them. Which I admit isn't spelled out anywhere, but is a logical power to give a direct representative of the Emperor with a great deal of autonomy. And it just makes sense that a duke would want his top military henchman stationed within arm's reach.

That being said Hans. There are a number unknowns in naval command.

I tend to look to Age of Sail conditions on the similar problems create similar solutions principle, though keeping firmly in mind that the Classic Era is NOT the Age of Sail cut and pasted into the Far Future, some solutions may be influenced by the practices of later centuries.

However, what we do know is;
1. The Admiralty has jurisdiction over the navy.

The emperor has jurisdiction over the navy and exercise it through the Admiralty at Capital. The sector duke has civilian oversight over the navy stationed in his sector. Logically, although it isn't mentioned anywhere, a subsector duke should have oversight over the navy stationed in his subsector.

During the Age of Sail, the Admiralty at London decided what ships and admirals to assign to a station and to recall from a station. The provincial governor had no say in that. But for as long as he was assigned to a station in a province, an admiral took instruction from the governor.

Note that a ship or a squadron could be under admiralty orders, in which case they were not assigned to any station and neither governor nor local admiral could interfere with them.

2. Reserve fleets are, at least in part, in Depot Mothballs for economics reasons. As discussed in CT.

The term 'reserve fleet' is used in two different ways. As reserves and as replacement for the subsector navies. Any discussion in CT about reserves would pertain to the first kind, since the second kind didn't exist in CT material.

3. Corridor Fleet consists of elements from all subsectors.
4. There are numerous admiralty positions in the Imperium Naval Forces.

If you mean numerous admiral's billets, then I agree with you, but I don't see the relevance.

IMTU, My character, Flt Adm John C. Savage, is the only surviving member of the Corridor's Admiralty in TNE. He is not king, emperor or anything of the sort. Perhaps the only survivor outside of the Regency. So, I am asking questions for opinions to better address the characteristics of Corridor that are not in Canon.

Isn't that just what I've been providing? Opinions about stuff that is not spelled out in canon?


Hans

 

[savage]

The emperor has jurisdiction over the navy and exercise it through the Admiralty at Capital. The sector duke has civilian oversight over the navy stationed in his sector. Logically, although it isn't mentioned anywhere, a subsector duke should have oversight over the navy stationed in his subsector.

During the Age of Sail, the Admiralty at London decided what ships and admirals to assign to a station and to recall from a station. The provincial governor had no say in that. But for as long as he was assigned to a station in a province, a admiral took instruction from the governor.


The term 'reserve fleet' is used in two different ways. As reserves and as replacement for the subsector navies. Any discussion in CT about reserves would pertain to the first kind, since the second kind didn't exist in CT material.

Note that a ship or a squadron could be under admiralty orders, in which case they were not assigned to any station and neither governor nor local admiral could interfere with them.

If you mean numerous admiral's billets, then I agree with you, but I don't see the relevance.


Isn't that just what I've been providing? Opinions about stuff that is not spelled out in canon?


Hans

Good point about age of sailing and fleet locations. This was one of the early points about CT we clearly see evident in TCS. Billets was in response to the common response that it is the Sector Admiral's decision.

My original question, was the breakup of fleets in various locations with Lemish Subsector. The real problem is that we lacked naval retirees and astrophysicists in the original development of CT. the Traveller Maps is forever broken with inconsistencies in relatively consistent regions. Dividing Lemish in half and giving the 105th part of the patrol and the 60th the other half is relatively simple with the A starports as base headquarters.

The next questions is how do you draw ships into a sector fleet. I have thought about this before. But additional opinions are always good.

 

[savage]

Depot's are TL15 minimum

As I review MT i see the point about Reserve units having their own base.
I'd thought it would mimic numbered fleets, but it does not.
So numbered fleets have a forward base and HQ base. Reserve fleets have an HQ base. Probably with an old CruRon. Other resources in the mothball fleet. These are the colonial units mentioned earlier. So...the world colonial forces rally around one world. If Lemish builds a Colonial Fleet it must report to support the Reserve Fleet in time of war. hmmm...

I worked out the history once years ago but as I reread, here is how the picture unfolds. Lucan recalls the Corridor Fleet and Marches Fleet. Norris tells the fleet to stand down and recalls the Corridor assets to the Marches.
Vargr get wind of this through a spy at Kaasu and send raiders in. Everyone wants to go for loot. It gets out of control quickly. Depot cannot roll heavy assets ships for the reserve Corridor Fleet out of mothballs quick enough.

T20 Fighting Ships: "Dreadnoughts are typically constructed only in Depot systems, where the yards are kept cutting edge, whereas battleship construction is spread out throughout the Imperium. Eventually those other construction facilities will be upgraded through time and they will become able to manufacture the previous generation of dreadnought." We should not see any depots below TL 15.

TL for the Depot systems should be fixed in the Traveller Map. We do know that there are two types of Depots. Some Rimward appear to only be supply/defense Depots. Not to mention the population problem that was not fixed in T5.

 

[rancke]

So...the world colonial forces rally around one world. If Lemish builds a Colonial Fleet it must report to support the Reserve Fleet in time of war.

If Lemish has a population of 1 million, it will be building 1000T destroyers. One at a time.

I've had a look at the capacity of Lemish Subsector to raise and maintain naval assets, and its tax base is less than 1% of the tax base of an average Imperial subsector. Having two standard-sized regular fleets stationed there requires massive logistical support from outside, and the local assets (whatever you call them) would be VERY small comparatively. If you posit that that logistical support will cease once Lucan strips Lemish of its fleets (which I think is extremely likely) then Lemish would indeed be left up an unsavory waterway without a maneuvering implement. It's entirely plausible that Vargr corsairs (operating at the force levels that I consider plausible for Vargr corsairs) could overrun Lemish. (Keeping Lemish once Khukish got its act together is a different matter. But then, the Vargr doesn't try to do that).

I worked out the history once years ago but as I reread, here is how the picture unfolds. Lucan recalls the Corridor Fleet and Marches Fleet. Norris tells the fleet to stand down and recalls the Corridor assets to the Marches.

Archduke Norris has no authority to order the Corridor Fleet to do anything. He can ask the sector duke to send them, but presumably the duke that obediently sends off his 16 other fleets will send off the four of the reaction force too.

Vargr get wind of this through a spy at Kaasu and send raiders in.

See, that's what I don't see happening. I don't think Vargr governments would send many raiders, because that's just throwing expensive ships away for little expected return. Instead, Captain Gruff of the light cruiser Growll hears about Corridor being defenseless and teams up with a couple of fellow captains and heads out for the Land of Beer and Steak. Where they may team up with other impromptu corsair bands or fight them over the spoils.

Everyone wants to go for loot. It gets out of control quickly. Depot cannot roll heavy assets ships for the reserve Corridor Fleet out of mothballs quick enough.

True, it takes months to reactivate mothballed cruisers and more months to reactivate battleships. But Depot would have system defenses in place to begin with.

(If there are ANY battletenders left in the sector, mothballed cruisers could be shipped to Kaasu and Khukish and reactivated there.)

T20 Fighting Ships: "Dreadnoughts are typically constructed only in Depot systems, where the yards are kept cutting edge, whereas battleship construction is spread out throughout the Imperium. Eventually those other construction facilities will be upgraded through time and they will become able to manufacture the previous generation of dreadnought." We should not see any depots below TL 15.

What book are you referring to? I didn't know T20 had a Fighting Ships.

From what I've gathered (some) depots build prototypes that are then built in bulk by shipyards throughout the Imperium. Those depots should be TL15-approaching-TL16.

After a century at TL15, 'eventually' should be here already. I definitely don't think that 200 Tigresses have been built exclusively at depots. Or at all, since I think the depots would be building prototypes of the next generation of warships.

(That last bit is, admittedly, partly because I've spent a lot of time later coming up with shipyards that built the Tigresses and there's nary a depot among them¹. In my defense, none of the Azhantis were built in depots either.)

¹ I'll be posting the results in my thread about Tigresses when I've finished or (more likely) grow tired of the project. In the meantime, here's a little sample:

No.    Name                Laid Down   First    Builder          Notes
                                       Flight
18511  Tigress              025-1078  172-1082  Semath No. 1
18512  Lioness              042-1078  218-1082  Silverring       AB
18513  Leopardess           077-1078  236-1082  Menkhakre
18514  Pantheress           092-1078  254-1082  Greyfleur        A
18515  Cougaress            120-1078  279-1082  Datta
18516  Jaguaress            144-1078  312-1082  Yard 23
18517  Cheetaess            146-1078  300-1082  Shaan Gig
18518  Ocelotess            171-1078  351-1082  Yard 19 No. 5

TL for the Depot systems should be fixed in the Traveller Map. We do know that there are two types of Depots. Some Rimward appear to only be supply/defense Depots. Not to mention the population problem that was not fixed in T5.

Yes, the population issue really needs to be dealt with.


Hans

 

[savage]

We are in agreement on most topics. I do think that with Vargr a few corsairs started it and soon thousands with entire governments being pulled in.

T20:Fighting Ships (TA0007 I think) is very good, but much of the fleet descriptions ended up in MgT Sector Fleet.

I have no problem with 10+ larger depots kicking out 200 capital ships.
These things build and repair fleets.

No Norris does not have authority over Corridor, but that does not stop him from trying to gather assets after the Duke is presumably killed.

Yes. Lemish and the other subsectors we're sitting ducks. Ships would need to leave Depot or Kaasu. There is nothing else close enough for a jump tender (J3). Once Kaasu was in trumoil, Depot becomes sector capital.

 

[Condottiere]

The more sophisticated sensors and weapons systems might be fitted in the Depots for warships farmed out to commercial yards.

 

[Drakon]

If Lemish has a population of 1 million, it will be building 1000T destroyers. One at a time.

I've had a look at the capacity of Lemish Subsector to raise and maintain naval assets, and its tax base is less than 1% of the tax base of an average Imperial subsector. Having two standard-sized regular fleets stationed there requires massive logistical support from outside, and the local assets (whatever you call them) would be VERY small comparatively. If you posit that that logistical support will cease once Lucan strips Lemish of its fleets (which I think is extremely likely) then Lemish would indeed be left up an unsavory waterway without a maneuvering implement. It's entirely plausible that Vargr corsairs (operating at the force levels that I consider plausible for Vargr corsairs) could overrun Lemish. (Keeping Lemish once Khukish got its act together is a different matter. But then, the Vargr doesn't try to do that).

My understanding is Lucan does stop supplies. That would leave the facilities in place, if not stocked, or manned.

One thing occurs to me is that most naval drydocks are constantly in use. That ships are sceduled for refit in such a manner to keep the shipyards constantly employed. There may be a Fiery or Gazell, left behind. It will be a few months before she can get out, assuming the parts required are all present and acounted for.

What prevents Khukish from being taken over? The higher population? And supposing Khukish does get its act together, why would they send a fleet to help out Lemish, when the stars around them need to be re-enforced/retaken against Vargr threat on their own system? I fear Lemish would be a low priority, at least until Khukish could secure their own neighborhood.

Archduke Norris has no authority to order the Corridor Fleet to do anything. He can ask the sector duke to send them, but presumably the duke that obediently sends off his 16 other fleets will send off the four of the reaction force too.

Corridor Sector is part of the Vland Domain. So while Duke Norris cannot, Archduke Ishuggi Tauribi of Vland can.

Oh wait, why didn't Vland stop the Corridor fleet?

See, that's what I don't see happening. I don't think Vargr governments would send many raiders, because that's just throwing expensive ships away for little expected return. Instead, Captain Gruff of the light cruiser Growll hears about Corridor being defenseless and teams up with a couple of fellow captains and heads out for the Land of Beer and Steak. Where they may team up with other impromptu corsair bands or fight them over the spoils.

Yes, I can agree this is more likely. Population dynamics might play a role, sending a bunch of young bucks out to "cut their teeth", and some of the more threatening ones to risk their lives, and possibly die valiantly in a coursair raid, instead of coming home to become a political problem.

One could end up like Pompei Magnus, when Julius Ceaser came back with the spoils of Gaul. A successful raid is politically problematic whether one backs it or not. A failed raid is problematic if you backed the losers. If the chance of success is high, one might decide to roll the dice and back the raids and deal with the consequences

Is the *expected* haul from raiding Lemish subsector that small? What are the Vargr's expectations? "Hey, the neighbors took all their ships and left themselves defenseless. Beer and Steak for all!"

(If there are ANY battletenders left in the sector, mothballed cruisers could be shipped to Kaasu and Khukish and reactivated there.)

Basically anyplace with a class A starport?

 

[Drakon]

Good point about age of sailing and fleet locations. This was one of the early points about CT we clearly see evident in TCS. Billets was in response to the common response that it is the Sector Admiral's decision.

My original question, was the breakup of fleets in various locations with Lemish Subsector. The real problem is that we lacked naval retirees and astrophysicists in the original development of CT. the Traveller Maps is forever broken with inconsistencies in relatively consistent regions. Dividing Lemish in half and giving the 105th part of the patrol and the 60th the other half is relatively simple with the A starports as base headquarters.

That will work, let the 105th take Ginning, Alfive and Aurolee. The 60th will take Lemish, Weyland and Tamilaa. I would recommend joint patrols along the border systems.

The next questions is how do you draw ships into a sector fleet. I have thought about this before. But additional opinions are always good.

My limited understanding is 10 squadrons of 10 ships.

MgT Sector Fleet, pg 42. "Subsector Fleets are tasked with maintaining the security and stabilty of their subsector. As such, their forces are mainly light patrol and destroyers, with a fleet flagship usually be a heavy or light cruiser. The presence of a handful of heavier ships allows the Subsector Admiral to deal with most problems without distracting the Sector Fleet from its assigned role of defending against a major threat."

How this applies exactly to Corridor I am not certain, as the history of trouble with the Vargr over the last few centuries, lend me to think the fleets would be strengthened.

Is Lt. Havoc around? He holds the Patent as Viscount of Courage. He might be interested in this discussion.

 

[savage]

That will work, let the 105th take Ginning, Alfive and Aurolee. The 60th will take Lemish, Weyland and Tamilaa. I would recommend joint patrols along the border systems.
My limited understanding is 10 squadrons of 10 ships.

How this applies exactly to Corridor I am not certain, as the history of trouble with the Vargr over the last few centuries, lend me to think the fleets would be strengthened.

Is Lt. Havoc around? He holds the Patent as Viscount of Courage. He might be interested in this discussion.

I know of 4 of us with Corridor patents.
It is viable to have 2 reserve fleet bases with light old tech CruRons. So, the farthest two B starports from the front line are Reserve Fleet bases. The two closest B's to the front lines are Fleet Forward bases and the A starports are the two Fleet headquarters. Yes to the CruRons but don't think there are any heavy cruisers in Lemish.

I need to rethink more of my old research but it seems logical. As mentioned in the last thread. All subsectors are not alike. Fleet headquarters tend to be close to the XBoat lines. If that helps a little bit.

 

[Drakon]

I know of 4 of us with Corridor patents.

I counted 7 of us. Although Ergodicity and Agorski are duplicates, and they and Lore are on the other side of the Reft.

Which leaves you, me, Havok, Ken (Count Khouth), Jazzlvraz(Count Irasumshu). Did I miss anyone? (posts 70, 86, 130, 146, 225, 323, 86,91, 229)

It is viable to have 2 reserve fleet bases with light old tech CruRons. So, the farthest two B starports from the front line are Reserve Fleet bases. The two closest B's to the front lines are Fleet Forward bases and the A starports are the two Fleet headquarters. Yes to the CruRons but don't think there are any heavy cruisers in Lemish.

That should suffice.

Kinunirs are light cruisers, right?

I need to rethink more of my old research but it seems logical. As mentioned in the last thread. All subsectors are not alike. Fleet headquarters tend to be close to the XBoat lines. If that helps a little bit.

Anything I can do to help, let me know.

 

[rancke]

My limited understanding is 10 squadrons of 10 ships.

Average of 8-10 squadrons of 6-8 combat vessels (anything big enough to mount a spinal weapon) plus an undefined number of auxiliaries.

The Kinunir is not a cruiser in the sense of the combat vessel definition (a cruiser is a ship with a spinal mount that is too small and fragile to stand in the line of battle (as opposed to battleships that have the same spinal mounts but are big and tough enough to stand in the line of battle)). It is an escort that is for some murky reason called a "frontier cruiser". Evidently not the same kind of cruiser.


Hans

 

[rancke]

MgT Sector Fleet, pg 42. "Subsector Fleets are tasked with maintaining the security and stabilty of their subsector. As such, their forces are mainly light patrol and destroyers, with a fleet flagship usually be a heavy or light cruiser. The presence of a handful of heavier ships allows the Subsector Admiral to deal with most problems without distracting the Sector Fleet from its assigned role of defending against a major threat."

According to Rebellion Sourcebook, p. 27, there is no such thing as a sector fleet distinct from the subsector fleets. "In the standard naval organization of the Imperium, each sector has a named fleet which is composed of one numbered fleet from each subsector."

I suspect that Sector Fleet is attempting to reduce the size of subsector fleets to a point where they're less capable of interfering with the PCs' fun, but that is both futile (a 1000T destroyer is just as capable of ruining PC fun as a 500,000T dreadnaught) and utterly implausible. Those 20,000 combat vessels that RbS says the Imperium has (62½ ships per numbered fleet on the average) are capable of accounting for the Imperial budget (30% of 3%) only by assuming that half of it is spent on bases and logistics on top of what the TCS maintenance rule would allow for. Reducing 62½ combat vessels plus attendant auxiliaries to "mainly light patrol and destroyers, with a fleet flagship usually be a heavy or light cruiser" would make the Imperial military spending so low that it's neighbors would be able to afford to build enough TL14 ships to completely outclass the Imperial Navy. In fact, it would enable the K'Kree to outclass the IN, and we really don't want that, do we?


Hans

Hans