CT and MT both have Reflec, a suit designed to defend against lasers. Base defense of Reflec is 10 against lasers specifically, which is considerable: a TL9 laser rifle has a penetration of 9. Here's where things get interesting: reflec can be worn with other armor, and Striker provide a bonus for stacked defenses. Wear reflec with a Combat Environment Suit, and you have an effective defense of 16 per the Armor Combination Table, rendering lasers of questionable value when a simple rifle has a better chance of doing damage against the CES. The only combat value of the low tech laser is as a targeting weapon for missiles or artillery or if you happen to be facing opponents who are poorly armored. I'm not sure if reflec is any good against the later TL13 lasers.
General The infantry laser problem
- Thread starter Carlobrand
- Start date
There are way more problems.
Lasers come in different wavelengths- visual, IR, UV etc.
Goggles that block one wavelength won’t block for another. Presumably reflec would have a similar problem actually reflecting a wavelength it wasn’t designed for.
While one could get into specific reflec for this or that wavelength and be a subgame, I decided reflec was just a misunderstanding of what the material does, and is actually a hyper effective heat dispersal and barrier material.
Lasers come in different wavelengths- visual, IR, UV etc.
Goggles that block one wavelength won’t block for another. Presumably reflec would have a similar problem actually reflecting a wavelength it wasn’t designed for.
While one could get into specific reflec for this or that wavelength and be a subgame, I decided reflec was just a misunderstanding of what the material does, and is actually a hyper effective heat dispersal and barrier material.
casquilho
SOC-13
A shirt of polished space shuttle tiles, and if you differentiate the colors you have a chess/checkers board.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Polychromatic,
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
This.
reflec is not a suit of shiny tin foil, that wouldn't work.
So it instead of being shiny it has to be the blackest of black, with carbon nanotubes spreading the incident laser light across the entire suit. It is very thin which is why it can be worn over or under any other armour. If you are wearing IR goggles hitting someone in reflec armour with a laser is quite a light show. To cope with x-ray lasers at TL13 you add nanoparticles of superdense to the carbon nanotubes.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
It's only an issue in Striker.
In Striker, the laser rifle is TL-9, Reflec and CES are TL-10, and the superior laser rifle TL-13.
Laser Rifles works at TL-9 and TL-13+, at TL10-12 armor wins.
The TL-9 laser rifle can still do damage, is silent, and recoilless. As Reflec can be worn UNDER armour, a hit should still be a problem in vacuum or under NBC threat.
A TL-10 ACR has better penetration and better range.
Take your pick...
In Striker, the laser rifle is TL-9, Reflec and CES are TL-10, and the superior laser rifle TL-13.
Laser Rifles works at TL-9 and TL-13+, at TL10-12 armor wins.
The TL-9 laser rifle can still do damage, is silent, and recoilless. As Reflec can be worn UNDER armour, a hit should still be a problem in vacuum or under NBC threat.
A TL-10 ACR has better penetration and better range.
Take your pick...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Not every military wants to spend six thousand bux for rainbow underwear, for each grunt.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
If we can afford a kCr5 laser rifle, we can afford a kCr1.5 armour.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Reportedly, one military issued their conscripts with airsoft armour.
And helmets last used a biblical generation ago.
And helmets last used a biblical generation ago.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Seems odd that Combat Armor would need to be augmented specifically for lasers.
Either lasers are uncommon and not worth defending against, or they're prevalent and would need to be always considered. Something like CA and above I would think would always have lasers on the designers mind.
Either lasers are uncommon and not worth defending against, or they're prevalent and would need to be always considered. Something like CA and above I would think would always have lasers on the designers mind.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There's always ablative.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Yes, but ablat is BULKY (and therefore, heavy) and it's only really "good" for the first hit (because, ablative). Against sustained incoming fire ... not so great (death of a thousand cuts and "all that jazz").
MegaTraveller had a lot of issues. I would have counted this among them. I don't think having the armor work when the reflec isn't there and then ignoring the fact that the laser has to burn through mass to get to the reflec when the reflec is there is a defensible solution.
Given the varied-tech nature of the Traveller setting, TL8-9 lasers are essentially obsolete at their inception given that spacefaring opponents are likely to have access to better-than-TL9 equipment. They're only really useful on your own world against opponents of TL9 or less and only if you've got lots of money to spend on your troops.
well, 1500, but not every military wants to spend Cr250 on cloth, either. If you're some despotic government drafting people into an army whose only purpose is to hold down the seething masses, you're likely to go cheap on your regulars and focus your money on elite highly indoctrinated units intended primarily to deal with potential coup attempts.
Just to be argumentative...
Lasers and Reflec as designed in the rules seem silly to me. Well the implied implication of being a general soldier weapon anyways.
The price of Reflec is indeed high compared to other armor options for the benefit it provides. No soldier wants to be exposed, but yea, the military would not have expensive equipment like that available for all troops.
Backpack powerpack lasers are silly. At the TL levels they are introduced, we don't have grav belts or anti-grav support yet for weapons, like the FGMP and PGMP series. Is it all like Aliens or Starship Troopers (movie) where the troop carrier just takes you to the battle? Where is the rest of the trooper's kit for any extended engagements?
Because of this weirdness, I think Lasers as designed should thought of more like a support weapon or specialist weapon. Your job is to take out targets that are otherwise hard defended targets. The Reflec by analogy is more like a add-on defense for said specialist. It discourages a sniper war like "Enemy at the Gates" because yes yourself are an expensive target...
Lasers and Reflec as designed in the rules seem silly to me. Well the implied implication of being a general soldier weapon anyways.
The price of Reflec is indeed high compared to other armor options for the benefit it provides. No soldier wants to be exposed, but yea, the military would not have expensive equipment like that available for all troops.
Backpack powerpack lasers are silly. At the TL levels they are introduced, we don't have grav belts or anti-grav support yet for weapons, like the FGMP and PGMP series. Is it all like Aliens or Starship Troopers (movie) where the troop carrier just takes you to the battle? Where is the rest of the trooper's kit for any extended engagements?
Because of this weirdness, I think Lasers as designed should thought of more like a support weapon or specialist weapon. Your job is to take out targets that are otherwise hard defended targets. The Reflec by analogy is more like a add-on defense for said specialist. It discourages a sniper war like "Enemy at the Gates" because yes yourself are an expensive target...
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Well, as I see them, Laser weapons have their uses, at least on MT
At TL8-9, they don't have too high penetration, and they disperse quite quickly (attenuation 2), but see taht in vacuum the attenuation is quite increased, and they have good ranges and are quite useful in zero-g. I guess their uses are mostly for forward observers (where they can use them to mark the tagets for artillery) and in shipboard actions, where you're likely to fight in zero G (gravity plates are TL 10= and against troops armored only by vacc-suits (as they must be protected against vacuum).
At TL13+ they can even be useful against BD, at short ranges, as the laser rifle has pen 20, and their "ammo" is quite high (200 shoots), while keeping their useful in zero-G and their increased attenuation in vacuum.
And don't forget the pinpoint option to reduce enemy's armor, when it is too high, and the fact a good roll (or good DMs) makes automatic damage, armor irrelevant (or multiplies it, if you can penetrate armor).
Another advantage they have is that batteries may be refilled from any power source, so, I guess, easing logistics, as you don't have to bring them mroe ammo. I see them quite useful in troos taht are expected to have logistical problems, as first wave palnetary assault troops, or commandos.
At TL8-9, they don't have too high penetration, and they disperse quite quickly (attenuation 2), but see taht in vacuum the attenuation is quite increased, and they have good ranges and are quite useful in zero-g. I guess their uses are mostly for forward observers (where they can use them to mark the tagets for artillery) and in shipboard actions, where you're likely to fight in zero G (gravity plates are TL 10= and against troops armored only by vacc-suits (as they must be protected against vacuum).
At TL13+ they can even be useful against BD, at short ranges, as the laser rifle has pen 20, and their "ammo" is quite high (200 shoots), while keeping their useful in zero-G and their increased attenuation in vacuum.
And don't forget the pinpoint option to reduce enemy's armor, when it is too high, and the fact a good roll (or good DMs) makes automatic damage, armor irrelevant (or multiplies it, if you can penetrate armor).
Another advantage they have is that batteries may be refilled from any power source, so, I guess, easing logistics, as you don't have to bring them mroe ammo. I see them quite useful in troos taht are expected to have logistical problems, as first wave palnetary assault troops, or commandos.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The simplest question to ask, is, what's the likelihood at getting shot at by a smallarm laser weapon system?
Yeah, I was going to make the cost argument, but as you say correctly, it doesn't work too well.
I think the key, if you wanted to change the balance, would be to reduce the effects of stacked armor. Or to give reflec armor disadvantages outside of the field of protection. Both would make sense: If you're wearing your cloth suit above your reflec, damage you take from lasers is arguably more from the melting/exploding pieces of your outer armor than from direct, reflectable laser beams; if you wear your reflec as the outer layer, you can kiss any sort of camouflage goodbye.
The most underrated and forgotten type of armor in CT.
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