General The infantry laser problem

[Tobias]

Well, as I see them, Laser weapons have their uses, at least on MT

At TL8-9, they don't have too high penetration, and they disperse quite quickly (attenuation 2), but see taht in vacuum the attenuation is quite increased, and they have good ranges and are quite useful in zero-g. I guess their uses are mostly for forward observers (where they can use them to mark the tagets for artillery) and in shipboard actions, where you're likely to fight in zero G (gravity plates are TL 10= and against troops armored only by vacc-suits (as they must be protected against vacuum).

At TL13+ they can even be useful against BD, at short ranges, as the laser rifle has pen 20, and their "ammo" is quite high (200 shoots), while keeping their useful in zero-G and their increased attenuation in vacuum.

In Striker, the TL 13 laser rifle should by rights be the standard infantry weapon for non-PGMP/FGMP troops at TL 13+. The Gauss Rifle, which according to Book 4 is still standard at higher TLs, can do nothing against other than pointlessly flatten 4mm ammo against impenetrable BD/combat armor at TL 14-15 - at an impressive rate of fire, of course. Oh, sure, it can fire RAM grenades, but then, better just give every man a RAM grenade launcher.

 

[kilemall]

The most underrated and forgotten type of armor in CT.

I worked out rules for them for starships, just cause.

Could maybe be one time streamlining for reentry or escape.

 

[kilemall]

In Striker, the TL 13 laser rifle should by rights be the standard infantry weapon for non-PGMP/FGMP troops at TL 13+. The Gauss Rifle, which according to Book 4 is still standard at higher TLs, can do nothing against other than pointlessly flatten 4mm ammo against impenetrable BD/combat armor at TL 14-15 - at an impressive rate of fire, of course. Oh, sure, it can fire RAM grenades, but then, better just give every man a RAM grenade launcher.

In a way, PG/FGMP are spitting out encased munroe effect bolts and more RAM grenade then rifle, laser or otherwise.

 

[Condottiere]

Each military has to figure out what works best for them.

It's quite possible that specialists use laser carbines, and going by Mercenary, if you're hunting down a forward observer, then you might want either ablative or reflec.

 

[mike wightman]

And if you are fighting in the peninsula war you want an assault rifle - laser carbine TL8, ablat TL9, reflec TL10

 

[Condottiere]

All around, best bang for buck is advanced combat rifle.

 

[McPerth]

In Striker, the TL 13 laser rifle should by rights be the standard infantry weapon for non-PGMP/FGMP troops at TL 13+. The Gauss Rifle, which according to Book 4 is still standard at higher TLs, can do nothing against other than pointlessly flatten 4mm ammo against impenetrable BD/combat armor at TL 14-15 - at an impressive rate of fire, of course. Oh, sure, it can fire RAM grenades, but then, better just give every man a RAM grenade launcher.

I don't know Striker, but in AHL the penetration level of a GR and a Laser Rifle are equivalent...

 

[Carlobrand]

I don't know Striker, but in AHL the penetration level of a GR and a Laser Rifle are equivalent...

That's interesting. Looks like they nerfed all the energy weapons and the VRF and 4 cm HEAP as well.

 

[Tobias]

I don't know Striker, but in AHL the penetration level of a GR and a Laser Rifle are equivalent...

They're not in Striker. To be precise, those of the TL 13(!) laser rifle and the Gauss rifle aren't. The former has a penetration of 20 (which incidentally means it will automatically kill every non-BD/CA wearer in one hit), the latter has one of 7. Considering that TL 14-15 combat armor/battle dress is armor 18, you can burst-fire your Gauss rifle at a wearer all day long (net damage DM -11) to zero effect.

 

[Tobias]

That's interesting. Looks like they nerfed all the energy weapons and the VRF and 4 cm HEAP as well.

I actually much prefer AHL's condensed and slightly different penetration scale. Among other things, because of the narrow window between "always killed" and "never hurt" in Striker illustrated by the example above.

 

[chipla]

I think one of the greatest limitations for laser weapons in Traveller is the backpack for laser rifles. While it's clearly (at least in MgT) light enough that the backpack isn't effecting you in combat (or doesn't provide penalties for being bulky) the fact that you're having to use the backpack for the laser's power cell means you're not using the same space for carrying supplies etc.

In general in MgT the laser weapons are ideal for shipboard fighting/raids - they're all Zero-G, have 100 shots per pack and are very damaging (5D+3 at TL11) without being armour piercing but the second you need sustained combat, or have a long supply chain their utility starts to fall apart (expensive to have secondary packs incase you need to charge one and fight and the inability to have a laser rifle pack and a standard patrol pack/bergen means that the infantry man lacks self sufficiency.

 

[Rupert]

All around, best bang for buck is advanced combat rifle.

In Striker it's somewhat competitive with the gauss rifle, but at a lower TL (the gauss rifle is still better, though). In Book 4 the gauss rifle is vastly better (the gauss rifle being a Wand of Death in LBB4). The gauss rifle might cost more, but I think it's worth it, especially in LBB4.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Nowadays, I'm thinking that a "battery belt" around the hips would be a better choice than a backpack.
To borrow imagery from City of Heroes costume options, you want a "belt of batteries" that looks something like this:

Plug THAT into your Laser Pistol/Carbine/Rifle instead of a backpack.

 

[Carlobrand]

I think one of the greatest limitations for laser weapons in Traveller is the backpack for laser rifles. ...

You could play with that, reduce size and number of shots a bit, string it as several batteries on a belt rather than one battery on a pack. Those ACR clips at 0.5 kg are 1/8 the size of a TL13 laser rifle battery, so 25 shots per laser battery belt-clip and it saves you having to shove clips into the rifle or risk tossing away expensive battery clips in the heat of battle.

 

[kilemall]

If you want to go creative but RAW, just use the battery rules from CT Striker and size to go. I did backwards analysis to figure out what the power input of the listed lasers are, you can too and size accordingly.

A good dirty rule is make a one use battery to go for that power clip cartridge style if you need to get away from the wired juice. Double the potential power, throw away.

Or go really exotic and use molten salt batteries at lower tech level. Have to have something radiating that heat away.

I had suggested using the chill cans for laser MGs, I think the MgT custom gun book has a version.

 

[Rupert]

The Striker TL13 laser has a 4kg pack - heavy by Traveller standards (because of the very tight encumbrance rules), but not really that heavy and given that batteries tend to be quite dense, that won't be a very large pack. Worn as a butt-bag, there's plenty of room for a small to medium patrol pack above it. At 50 shots/kg it's got a shots/kg ratio equal to a 7mm ACR, batter than a 9mmACR, but not as good as a gauss rifle's. It seems pretty good, considering the damage and penetration the rifle has.

Given that the rifle itself is 8.8 kg, we are really looking at a support weapon, not a general issue one, especially given how expansive the rifle and especially the backpack are. You can buy a lot of gauss rifles or ACRs with plenty of RAM grenades each, and quite a few Auto GLs for support as well for the price of one TL13 laser rifle.

I'm not sure that the TL13 laser rifle actually has that much use outside zero-G combat to be honest - it's pricey, and it's heavy enough that it's competing more with light support weapons than with issue rifles, and it can't do much that a RAM grenade or even a TL6-7 disposable LAW or small recoilless can't do (and they can do things it can't). It does carry lots of ammo per kg compared to these support weapons, though, so there's that. At TL14 the PGMP-14 replaces it for people with deep pockets (or the FGMP-14 if they also have battledress).

Of course in LBB4 TL13 lasers don't exist, and gauss rifles are about equal in hit+penetration against battledress to high-energy weapons, and better against all lesser armour (and get to attack more times) so, as I find myself repeating, no need to go past them for shooting up infantry.

 

[Tobias]

Given that the rifle itself is 8.8 kg, we are really looking at a support weapon, not a general issue one, especially given how expansive the rifle and especially the backpack are. You can buy a lot of gauss rifles or ACRs with plenty of RAM grenades each, and quite a few Auto GLs for support as well for the price of one TL13 laser rifle.

The rifles themselves are completely useless against TL 14+ combat armor in Striker. Why carry them at all? A standard three-round RAM GL is more useful, but in either case, a RAM grenade weighs 500 grams, so at about ~20 rounds carried you're already looking at more weight as for the laser rifle + backpack.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In Striker, the TL 13 laser rifle should by rights be the standard infantry weapon for non-PGMP/FGMP troops at TL 13+. The Gauss Rifle, which according to Book 4 is still standard at higher TLs, can do nothing against other than pointlessly flatten 4mm ammo against impenetrable BD/combat armor at TL 14-15 - at an impressive rate of fire, of course. Oh, sure, it can fire RAM grenades, but then, better just give every man a RAM grenade launcher.

Agreed, low caliber gauss rifles and submachine-guns are ineffective against TL-14 DB.


Low-tech anti-tank/anti-materiel rifles ("crunch guns") would penetrate DB with ease.
Low-tech bazookas/panzershreck would penetrate DB with ease.
Mid-tech grenades...

The "invincible" BD is just 25 mm hard steel equivalent at TL 12 and 50 mm hard steel equivalent at TL 14. WE know how to kill BD troops, and did at TL-5.

This rifle could penetrate TL-13 DB at short range:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_1918_T-Gewehr


With Striker, a RAM grenade launcher is lighter, cheaper, and has longer range than the laser rifle. There is even an automatic version.


I give laser weapons to the Navy, because of the recoilless-ness.
They are great for snipers, because of lack of visible and auditory signature.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Reportedly, one military issued their conscripts with airsoft armour.

And helmets last used a biblical generation ago.

And they are paying for it in spades.

 

[Tobias]

In Striker it's somewhat competitive with the gauss rifle, but at a lower TL (the gauss rifle is still better, though). In Book 4 the gauss rifle is vastly better (the gauss rifle being a Wand of Death in LBB4). The gauss rifle might cost more, but I think it's worth it, especially in LBB4.

That's because Book 1 combat is bonkers, and Book 1 combat with Book 4 weapons is batshit bananas bonkers. You could make the argument that military engagements at high TLs always take place at extreme ranges, but your typical firefight on a starship using high-ish tech weapons results in everyone dead after the first round. Everyone.