CT Only: The overwhelming utility of grav vehicles

[mike wightman]

HG80
TL7
3900t
m2 pp2 bridge pp fuel 663t
model 2 computer 665t
3,235 tons to play with.
~40 crew (LBB2 crew formula for brevity) 160t
3,075 to play with.

 

[coliver988]

M Drives suffer the same problem.

A 1G drive makes spacelift REALLY cheap.

Its like all of the hard stuff (things that you mentioned) are crammed in late TL-7/early TL-8, relying on fractional gains in technology until one of the major breakthroughs happen and wipes them all out.

sudden paradigm shifts do have that tendency. this is an interesting book to read (though it's been a few years since I read last read it and to be honest, not sure I even completed it): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

 

[Tobias]

Well, there is a loophole to build a really cheap air/raft.

Since I don't think that Vehicles has been updated, it probably hasn't been removed.

Well, I'm talking mostly CT here. Using Striker, at TL 11 I can do a MHD-powered grav family car for 6 people (including a driver) and 600 kg of luggage, cruise speed of 180 kph, for Cr 26,000. Endurance is 7 hours at full power.
The big price driver in grav vehicles is having a fusion PP.

 

[Marcatlas]

For the price described in certain sources, which seem to imply fusion power, which is by no means necessary. We can clearly make affordable grav vehicles in Striker and MT using batteries or non-fusion power sources. There's every reason to expect the first civilian grav vehicles will use the power sources most affordable and most familiar to the civilian market.

As this is a CT only thread I'm talking about those prices. Prices are also different in MgT & Cepheus

 

[Condottiere]

If you're looking at the air/raft at a personal level, then sure, the player party will try to get what they perceive is the most versatile vehicle for their needs.

If it's part of an overall planetary transport network, then it's likely only the rich have them, and those utilizing them as actual utility vehicles, will be finding ways for cutpricing.

 

[Tobias]

Well, Striker is CT. (In fact it's the only official CT vehicle design system).
The vehicle I mentioned above is completely rules-legal.

However, I am quite sympathetic to the price argument in a world-building sense. It just doesn't help much with the game perspective. Player characters will often control or even outright own starships. Grav vehicles, while expensive, are much less expensive than ships. Thus, they they are not out of PC reach, and are in fact standard shipboard vehicles for more than one type of possible PC ship.

 

[Marcatlas]

However, I am quite sympathetic to the price argument in a world-building sense. It just doesn't help much with the game perspective. Player characters will often control or even outright own starships. Grav vehicles, while expensive, are much less expensive than ships. Thus, they they are not out of PC reach, and are in fact standard shipboard vehicles for more than one type of possible PC ship.

The argument isn't whether PCs are rich and can own starships. That's a completely different topic. It is the false statement that grav vehicles would be ubiquitous, unless one is arguing that 90% of the population is very wealthy.

 

[Condottiere]

First responders are going to have them.

High school prommers will hire them.

 

[Tobias]

It is the false statement that grav vehicles would be ubiquitous,

Book 3 says in no uncertain terms that they are. "Beyond tech level 10, other vehicle types are rarely seen except in a few specialized situations." It's not a "false" statement, it's not a would be, it's what CT canon says.

I almost wish I had not even included that snippet of canon because it seems to be all most people here want to talk about, ignoring 90% of the OP.

And no, I'm obviously not wed to canon. It's just that saying "nuh, they would not be ubiquitous because they are expensive" has zero impact on grav vehicles being overwhelmingly superior in all game-relevant applications to all other vehicle types at their TL of introduction onwards.

 

[Dragoner]

My solution of choice, too ... but very NOT OTU.

Thus IMTU.

Book 3 says in no uncertain terms that they are. "Beyond tech level 10, other vehicle types are rarely seen except in a few specialized situations." It's not a "false" statement, it's not a would be, it's what CT canon says.

I almost wish I had not even included that snippet of canon because it seems to be all most people here want to talk about, ignoring 90% of the OP.

And no, I'm obviously not wed to canon. It's just that saying "nuh, they would not be ubiquitous because they are expensive" has zero impact on grav vehicles being overwhelmingly superior in all game-relevant applications to all other vehicle types at their TL of introduction onwards.

You are right it does, though I feel it was doing it like in some Dumarest sort of way where you would run across a horse drawn grav floater. It is sort of like in the Spinward Marches Ruie and Regina have sat next to each other for hundreds though only recently been in contact. One has to accept the way it is or not, ubiquitous grav everything is more of a consideration of setting flavor. Edit: As Marc put it, he simply did things for flavor, and people such as Frank came along to fill in the blanks, so much of this is conscious choice for feeling without things being thoroughly thought through.

 

[Condottiere]

I think were you a clear, heavily used route, you're going to have railways.

Intercontinental, spacecraft.

The question would be, if you have an extensive road network.

If not, people will figure out how to afford air/rafts.

I tend to think they become family heirlooms, and letting your teenager drive/fly one, represents a tremendous deal of trust in their skill and reliability.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The question would be, if you have an extensive road network.

If not, people will figure out how to afford air/rafts.

You can either maintain the "roadways" (as a public service) or you can maintain the grav vehicles ... because where we're going, we don't need roads.

 

[whartung]

I think were you a clear, heavily used route, you're going to have railways.

No way.

Nope, sorry.

If they had existed before the paradigm shift, then "maybe".

But after?

That's like stringing land lines in the world of solar panels and cell towers.

A modern box car is just over 1/10th of a dTon in capacity. That means the off the shelf generic Free Trader that you can find in a blister pack at the Walmart checkout line, next to the gum, can carry the rough equivalent of 800 box cars.

Just way to much time, money, and effort to carve the railbed (not to mention the joys of maintenance, weather, collisions, and, of course, switchyards).

Newer worlds won't even have highways to connect the cities. There were be internal paths, between buildings, to be sure. There's all sorts of reasons to have space outside of buildings, not just ground traffic. But there's no reason to carve through the wilderness with cheap, ubiquitous, safe flight.

 

[Carlobrand]

As this is a CT only thread I'm talking about those prices. Prices are also different in MgT & Cepheus

Whup, good point. CT sources do paint a conflicting picture. On the other hand, if those things last half as long as spacecraft manage, they'd still be a profitable investment for the transport and passenger traffic industries. I would consider it sufficiently ubiquitous to have the airline industry gradually replaced with something that can go suborbital for quicker long distance flights. Long distance trucking is also likely to be displaced.

 

[Grav_Moped]

PS: LBB5 places it at TL 7 for MD w/ Fusion PP Small Craft]

IMHO, I think that's a mistake that was overlooked because nobody ever bothered building TL-7 ships because why would you?

In '77 (B2) through '79 (HG1), all maneuver drives were either implicltly (B2) or explictly (HG1), reaction drives, until HG2 explicitly made all of them grav drives that didn't use any appreciable amount of fuel.

Maneuver drives in HG1 would/should have been non-fusion rockets (hydrolox or kerolox) without inertial compensation, hence being limited to 2G over a 20-minute combat turn. Fuel burn rate should have been something stupid like 10%*Td per G per turn since it would be chemical rather than nuclear.

But, again, who'd bother? And then notice the issue?

 

[whartung]

The problem with the TNE model is that you have these vehicle wandering around ejecting molten plasma out the back. Fine in deep space, not so much in an elementary school parking lot, not to mention what they do to your wifes roses on the side of the driveway.

 

[Tobias]

A modern box car is just over 1/10th of a dTon in capacity. That means the off the shelf generic Free Trader that you can find in a blister pack at the Walmart checkout line, next to the gum, can carry the rough equivalent of 800 box cars.

A standard container, which fits on a railroad car, is about 5 dtons, volume-wise. And there are railroad cars which can carry two, and longer than standard models, too.

A typical freight train carries several hundred dtons of cargo and requires <10 Mw of engine power to move. A spaceship cannot compete unless time is so critical that investing in 100 times as much engine power is worth it.

 

[Condottiere]

There's capital investment, and then there's operational cost.

Without a highway system, it is possible that early adopters of the air/raft would get subsidized.

And then there's that forty year mortgage.

 

[infojunky]

I've been thinking a bit IMTU on how grav vehicles should work in CT and how they should compare to other types of vehicles.

CT canon is generally that grav vehicles start being ubiquitous at TL 10. All grav vehicles are effectively orbital spacecraft (including the humble Air/Raft), making other forms of vehicles generally However, according to Book 4, grav vehicles only gradually gain these capabilities over TLs 9-13. However, this is not supported by design rules from Striker onwards, which again give fusion-powered grav vehicles their full potential at TL 9.

Going back to the Book 4 model, which I find a lot more attractive, since it leaves a longer TL window for other types of vehicles to be relevant, I'm envisioning this general guideline for the technological maturation of grav vehicles.
TL 9: Standard grav vehicles perform similar to hovercraft. High performance vehicles perfom similar to helicopters.
TL 10: Standard grav vehicles perform similar to helicopters. High performance vehicles perfom similar to subsonic VTOL aircraft.
TL 11: Standard grav vehicles perform similar to subsonic VTOL aircraft. High performance vehicles perfom similar to supersonic VTOL aircraft.
TL 12: Standard grav vehicles perform similar to supersonic VTOL aircraft. High performance vehicles perfom similar to orbital spacecraft.
TL 13+: All grav vehicles perform similar to orbital spacecraft.

I have been staring that bit of Book4 for years.

Thoughts?

My current solution is there different flavors of Grav. Expensive power hungry free flight grav and cheaper not so power hungry limited to NOE grav skimmers... I.e. Grav driven Hovercraft... (In Striker terms the second are 10-25% cost in power and price)

Weirdly T5 kinda supports this view as well.

In the end, this is all because I want Landspeeders darn it...

 

[kilemall]

Well, Striker is CT. (In fact it's the only official CT vehicle design system).
The vehicle I mentioned above is completely rules-legal.

However, I am quite sympathetic to the price argument in a world-building sense. It just doesn't help much with the game perspective. Player characters will often control or even outright own starships. Grav vehicles, while expensive, are much less expensive than ships. Thus, they they are not out of PC reach, and are in fact standard shipboard vehicles for more than one type of possible PC ship.

Desired game effect first, world building second.

For CT legal, you got another choice- LBB8 Robots. Plenty of little fusion plants, fuel cells, batteries etc built for small sized chassis, and different ranges of grav lifters for everything from a zippy gravcycle to a grav sled for pushing around items.

Plus robot brains right there to incorporate auto drivers, auto gunners, repair droids or master/slave setups for world grid vehicle control.