CT Only: The overwhelming utility of grav vehicles

[Carlobrand]

Can you fly a flight simulator on your PC? You can fly an air/raft. ...

Actually, I can't. Weird thing about heights that carries over into simulations if they're good enough. Makes me feel dizzy and disoriented. I go down stairs with a grip on the handrail. Those TV shows where someone looks over the edge of a roof, they give me the willies. On the other hand, I can fly as a passenger just fine - except that part of takeoff and landing where things are getting tinier, that's pretty uncomfortable until we get high enough.

But I'm an outlier case. Other people could, I'm sure, but it's harder. It's not like putting your kid behind the wheel in an empty parking lot. Landing wrong could damage the undercarriage. Inadequate attention to speed could lead to a stall - though grav vehicles wouldn't face that.

...
Don't worry the autopilot has you covered.
...

Yep. But coming from a society in which children do shooter drills in school, I have full faith in the perverse ingenuity of my fellow man.

...
Regulate, not control. The future doesn't have to be a socialist authoritarian state.
...

The game seems to think differently, if I interpret the government level generation formula correctly. Large populations seem to favor authoritarian government. I agree that much will depend on local culture and government type.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Rating upgraded from LOL to Love upon realizing that the car is a Citroen 2CV (Deux Chevaux, i.e., "Two Horses").

(It's an engine output thing: 2 horsepower.)

 

[Tobias]

Here you go ... BACKWATER (CT PbP) ... a small group of Spacers are temporarily stranded on a backwater planet (TL 11; LL 7; Civil Service Bureaucracy) and decide to take a job advertised on the local news. A relay station at the Arctic Circle has gone off-line and needs to be repaired. The repair crew from the Corporation that owns it disappeared without a trace ... well, except for a large frozen blood stain on the tarmac. Given the -40C temperatures and Predator Megafauna, most arctic locals and all Corporate Repair crews refuse to go near the JOB. Given the offer of One Million Credits to the first independent contractor to repair the station and reestablish the Satellite Link, lots of "individuals" are racing to claim the prize.

Arctic, snowstorm, winter, mega-fauna, winner take all contest ... what could go wrong! That MCr 1 is just the nest egg to help buy a ship and get off this BACKWATER. All using CT Rule 68A and LBB2/S4 Characters.

What's that got to do with the game role of grav vehicles?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Rating upgraded from LOL to Love upon realizing that the car is a Citroen 2CV (Deux Chevaux, i.e., "Two Horses").

(It's an engine output thing: 2 horsepower.)

I KNEW that make of vehicle looked familiar!

 

[infojunky]

Ok, consider this, wheeled vehicles will exist, they are the cheapest small transport solution available.

Heavy farm/construction equipment will exist either wheeled or tracked, it has to do with the requirement of Mechanical Advantage and traction.

Couple that to local roads are relatively cheep.

Larger than that rail and ships are cheaper still in terms of amount of material moved. Again this comes down to the most economical solution.

Harking back to Piper, I can see grav ships, if they can match the above in price per ton moved.

But since we are looking at a CT base here, Rail is pretty much the heavy transport solution.

Again this all is subject to local conditions.

 

[whartung]

I KNEW that make of vehicle looked familiar!

Thats my favorite Bond movie.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Rail is pretty much the heavy transport solution.

Steel wheel on steel rails.
Then you do maglev.
Then you do gravlev.

 

[atpollard]

What's that got to do with the game role of grav vehicles?

Nothing at all … it was a tangent to meet your expressed need for evidence that Classic Traveller was an actual Game that people played rather than a sandbox for accountants to debate in. That was a CT Game being played (as evidence that it can and does happen).

(… but it does have both GROUND and GRAV vehicles, however most local transportation is via “Nike” since the second largest city is only 10,000 people and most activity occurs within a 500 person neighborhood.)

 

[GypsyComet]

however most local transportation is via “Nike”

"How does one get from place to place in this town?"
"VICTORY!"
"Uh, okay."
"No really. The Nike light rail reaches all over. We do the Victory thing to newcomers because it's hilarious."

 

[Condottiere]

For traction, you could put the air/raft in reverse, and increase gravity.

Which, if I recall Formula One Lotus, is one way to ensure that something light doesn't fly off the track.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, interesting way to increase down force for racing cars...

 

[Krikkitone]

Hmm, interesting way to increase down force for racing cars...

There would definitely be wheeled grav races (wheels just to keep it from skidding, and the grav to accelerate/keep it stable)

 

[Condottiere]

Could also have magnetic variant, with super conductors making it frictionless.

 

[atpollard]

"How does one get from place to place in this town?"
"VICTORY!"
"Uh, okay."
"No really. The Nike light rail reaches all over. We do the Victory thing to newcomers because it's hilarious."

Actually, this does touch on a point worth discussing. Is TRANSPORTATION really even NEEDED in most places.

Here is an observation (from a Land Planner) based on creating the WORLD in the game. The largest cities are 1 POP digit below the world and most communities are 2 or more POP digits below the world. So for an average world that is POP 6-8 with cities of POP 5-7 and "Towns" of POP 4-6. My particular world had a TAINTED Atmosphere, so TL 11 settlements tended towards Domed Communities to provide Clean Air and a shirtsleeve environment. With a typical 500 person "neighborhood" of about 1 km diameter (a human scale for social networking), it is silly to need to DRIVE/FLY anywhere within a 0.5 km radius. Who needs a private air/raft to travel 500-1000 meters? That would be the equivalent of needing to DRIVE around inside a Mall.

That just leaves transportation between neighborhoods. So let's assume the Traveller Hex configuration of neighborhoods with a TOWN CENTER in a middle hex and six NEIGHBORHOOD hexes around it. That is 3500 people within 1 km average travel distance of the Town Center. If 50% of the people in a 500 person neighborhood commute to another neighborhood every day ... that is only 250 passengers per day each way. That is not much of a "Light Rail" or "Grav Mass Transit" system, is it? Most people would just walk or bike 1 km rather than wait or pay for a vehicle that would have storage issues in a domed community.

Note, all this assumes a "Kansas" type low and spread out density with lots of open space. If they build upward to fill the dome NYC style, then the population can increase an order of magnitude or two without increasing the travel distances ... so the 3500 person dome could grow to hold up to 350,000 [POP 5] all commuting about 1 km or less.

From this, I concluded that the most reasonable use for GRAV vehicles was high speed transportation between cities ... with Government subsidies and established routes to smaller Towns. Non-perishable freight travels cheap and slow by ground (truck or boat). There are Grav Vehicles for Charter for those with need that cost more than the Subsidized scheduled service.

I guess, my ultimate point is that TAINTED ATMOSPHERES (or other hostile environments) can be game changers for Transportation, and MASS TRANSIT (rail) requires MILLIONS of people to work and even BUSES require HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS ... so most Traveller Worlds will have too small of settlements for Mass Transit to be practical.

100% imho.

 

[Condottiere]

Anything that needs more than fifteen minutes transit, with available private transport.

Then you have the very young, and the really old.

 

[Spinward Flow]

From this, I concluded that the most reasonable use for GRAV vehicles was high speed transportation between cities ... with Government subsidies and established routes to smaller Towns. Non-perishable freight travels cheap and slow by ground (truck or boat).

Consider also that inter-urban transport will likely be widely separated, particularly in a tainted/hostile atmosphere context. The "next town" isn't going to be 10km away, it's going to be 100-1000 km distant. Building any kind of surface infrastructure (road, rail, etc.) to service that transport is going to be expensive to build and maintain (and defend if there's wildlife to worry about). MUCH easier to just use gravitic vehicles instead which need no ground transport infrastructure between destinations to be viable.

Why?
Because where we're going, we don't need roads.

 

[casquilho]

Actually, this does touch on a point worth discussing. Is TRANSPORTATION really even NEEDED in most places.
[snip]
That would be the equivalent of needing to DRIVE around inside a Mall.

Is the question really "Is transportation needed" or "Are Grav Vehicles needed"?

Is a Grav Buggy needed at a mall, of course not. But the local mall here has carts for janitorial, maintenance, security, and an assistance cart available for the handicaped and elderly. So to be honest, I think the question you really were trying to answer is "Is Grav based vehicles really even needed in most places?". And in that case, I agree, given the restrictions you outline, for the most part, no they are not.

 

[whartung]

That would be the equivalent of needing to DRIVE around inside a Mall.

Today, if they were allowed, many folks would use a small powered scooter to maneuver through something as large as a mall. In fact, they do that at the mall near me (which is an outside mall). It's eminently walkable, but, why walk when you can ride. Its faster, and takes less energy. The downside is coping with the heavy scooter. And, of course, the expense of the scooter.

There was a surge in urban centers when tiny, electric scooter companies air dropped hundreds of them on these communities, rentable with a phone app.

"Need" is a strong word, but if the transportation is available and convenient, it'll be used. We're just lazy that way.

 

[atpollard]

Is the question really "Is transportation needed" or "Are Grav Vehicles needed"?

Is a Grav Buggy needed at a mall, of course not. But the local mall here has carts for janitorial, maintenance, security, and an assistance cart available for the handicaped and elderly. So to be honest, I think the question you really were trying to answer is "Is Grav based vehicles really even needed in most places?". And in that case, I agree, given the restrictions you outline, for the most part, no they are not.

I like to go on Cruises with the family ... when we debark in a strange Port and run the security gauntlet past the Duty-Free Shops within the Port, there is no shortage of vehicles to rent or hire, That seems the most like a Starship arriving at a Down Port and what the CREW would encounter to meet their needs for reaching a destination.

 

[chipla]

That would be the equivalent of needing to DRIVE around inside a Mall.

So I live and work on a government campus around 1km by 500m (sorta). The office I work in is literally 2mins walk from my appartment (I timed it). On the campus we have a tram system, little electric buggies (when they work) as well as several 4x4s, maintainance trucks and EVs, not to mention the various personal vehicles that people own.

People (including me) drive to the main security gate to pick up packages.

Need doesn't come into it, humans are lazy, it's our great gift, it's why we invent things to make life easier for ourselves. If there is a possibility of doing something the lazy way, people will take it regardless of if it makes sense.