The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN
- Thread starter RainOfSteel
- Start date
All you need is a political subdivision with a degree of autonomy. Both the member worlds and the duchies (but not the counties, marquisates, and baronies) are political subdivisions with a degree of autonomy. So they all want their own navies.
"Hi! Want to joing the Imperium? All you have to do is pay us 3% of your GWP and we'll take care of all your defensive needs."
"How about we pay you 1% and you coordinate defense angainst common enemies while we keep 2% and take care of the rest ourselves?"
Hans
It is maintained at the subsector level, sure. But it is stated flat out in Rebellion Sourcebook that it is part of the Imperial Navy.
Basically you and I are both picking the parts of canon that we feel makes the most sense[*]. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Repeating the same bits of undeniably canonical material that you prefer again and again is not going to disprove the bits of equally canonical material that I prefer (nor vice versa).
[*] Plus, I think that a duchy navy run as a separate organization offers more dramatic possibilities than a reserve fleet, but that's pure gut feeling.
Hans
You know, it's really a letdown to post a big chunk of references that one think are highly relevant, not to mention interesting, only to have it sink without a ripple... 
How about this: A sector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is a Grand Admiral in the sector or direct orders from the Imperial Admiralty apply.
A subsector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is sector admiral in his duchy or direct orders from the Imperial or sector Admiralty apply.
Hans
It's not something I would ever have thought of myself, but this might be a good model for explaining the relationship of dukes and the rest of the Imperial High nobles to the Imperial Navy.
How about this: A sector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is a Grand Admiral in the sector or direct orders from the Imperial Admiralty apply.
A subsector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is sector admiral in his duchy or direct orders from the Imperial or sector Admiralty apply.
Hans
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Bruce,
As Rob Davenport continually points out, the Spinward Marches are not indicative of the Imperium as a whole. Neither is the Solomani Rim and neither is Gateway.</font>[/QUOTE]I personally don't have every piece of Traveller material ever written. Nor do I have the time, energy and money required to collect the pieces I am missing. (Though I wouldn't say no to getting my hands on the Reaver's Deep Sector.) I do have the Spinward Marches, The Solomani Rim, The Gateway Domain (Ley, Gateway, Glimerdrift Reaches and Crusis Margin) and Vland sectors. I have found, even with the popularity of T20 and the Gateway Domain material that the Spinward Marches is still the most common denominator. Further since Gateway was published without desiginating the Subsector Capitals, (Ooops!) that really only leaves 3 Sectors to talk about. My copy of Vland is from DGP's Vilani and Vargr, which not everyone has and apparently isn't going to be re-released.
That leaves us with only two Sectors to discuss when talking about Naval Bases and Subsector Capitals. The generalizations I have made happen to apply. You can say that those Sectors aren't indicative to the Imperium as a whole, but they are indicative of two important border regions. The structure of the Navy, on the border is much more important than it is in the Interior someplace.
So you can poo-poo us looking at the Spinward Marches all you want. However if you are going to do so then please, by all means, provide us with another point of reference.
IN the mean time the argument holds that the Subsector Capitals are generally on the more important worlds in a Sector. The choice of a Subsector Capital appears to be planets with a Class A Starport, on an XBoat Route, with the highest TL, and generally, though not always, with a Navy Base, in the Subsector. (Presents some interesting choices when trying to figure out the Subsector Capitals in Ley and Glimerdrift Reaches Sectors.)
Now you are more than welcome to show me a Canon Sector where those generalizations don't apply.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
There are about 270 of them. They're called dukes.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]But I have yet to hear them, officially, called Warlords.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually I paid attention. I was working on a similar principal. I can handle the Sector Duke, sharing power with the Grand Admiral (Or the guy in charge of the Sector Fleet and the Sector Reserve Fleet, if he isn't a Grand Admiral.) for a Sector.
Since the Dukes have their own Navies, the Colonial Forces in their individual SubSector, (Call it whatever you want.) I don't see them needing the same kind of authority.) Let them have authority over the Colonial Naval Assets in their Subsector but only under extrodinary, and narrowly defined, circumstances should they be allowed to task Imperial Navy assets without going through channels.
There are and will of course be exceptions. The bigest, most obvious, exception being when the Duke also happens to be a serving officer in the Imperial Navy. Then his Imperial Naval Rank would be his level of authority, within his chain of command, unless he also happens to be the Sector Duke.
(One would think the Sector Duke would retire from active service.
) (The picture of a newly elevated young Duke, wearing the uniform of an Ensign trying to assume command of a BatRon has put a smile on my face this morning.
)
Now of course Direct Orders from the Admiralty, Domain High Command (Whatever you want to call that level.) the ArchDuke (if any) or the Emperor, to include in the form of a Warant, would supercede the Sector Dukes Authority, and every other Yahoo down the line.
How about this: A sector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is a Grand Admiral in the sector or direct orders from the Imperial Admiralty apply.
A subsector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is sector admiral in his duchy or direct orders from the Imperial or sector Admiralty apply.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]
Since the Dukes have their own Navies, the Colonial Forces in their individual SubSector, (Call it whatever you want.) I don't see them needing the same kind of authority.) Let them have authority over the Colonial Naval Assets in their Subsector but only under extrodinary, and narrowly defined, circumstances should they be allowed to task Imperial Navy assets without going through channels.
There are and will of course be exceptions. The bigest, most obvious, exception being when the Duke also happens to be a serving officer in the Imperial Navy. Then his Imperial Naval Rank would be his level of authority, within his chain of command, unless he also happens to be the Sector Duke.
Now of course Direct Orders from the Admiralty, Domain High Command (Whatever you want to call that level.) the ArchDuke (if any) or the Emperor, to include in the form of a Warant, would supercede the Sector Dukes Authority, and every other Yahoo down the line.
It's not something I would ever have thought of myself, but this might be a good model for explaining the relationship of dukes and the rest of the Imperial High nobles to the Imperial Navy.Originally posted by rancke:
You know, it's really a letdown to post a big chunk of references that one think are highly relevant, not to mention interesting, only to have it sink without a ripple...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
The governor of Virginia, for instance, had authority over regular troops only when there were no general officer of the crown in the province.
How about this: A sector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is a Grand Admiral in the sector or direct orders from the Imperial Admiralty apply.
A subsector duke has authority over the Imperial Navy unless there is sector admiral in his duchy or direct orders from the Imperial or sector Admiralty apply.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I agree, and that is why I prefer the TA7 characterization that both the Reserve Fleet, belonging to the Imperial Navy, comprised of "older yet still useful ships," and Colonial Forces, belonging to the individual worlds and Subsectors that can be called into Imperial service at need, (coincidentally under the Reserve Fleet when called up) is a good way to look at it.
Sorry to bust your bubble, Bill, but some of us are trying to work out a coherent picture that doesn't necessarily contain every bit of previously published canon. It would be nice if it did, sure, but the main thing is to create a interesting, useful, and self-consistent background. Trying to do that is not only fun in itself (and thus sufficient justification for doing it even if we never played the game at all), it is also conductive to good gaming.
Oh, and I do have a life, thank you very much (Hint: Just because you don't think something is fun doesn't mean that nobody else think it's fun).
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree completely.
If a sector Duke can appoint a sector Admiral then the Grand Admiral must be an appointment made by the Emperor. The Grand Admiral, acting under Emperor's orders could thus ignore even a sector Duke - unless an Imperial Warrant is invoked or the Duke's request doesn't conflict with his other orders.
Again, I agree completely with this.
Mike
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Norris resigned his commission when his brother died and he was elevated to Duke.Originally posted by Bhoins:
There are and will of course be exceptions. The bigest, most obvious, exception being when the Duke also happens to be a serving officer in the Imperial Navy. Then his Imperial Naval Rank would be his level of authority, within his chain of command, unless he also happens to be the Sector Duke.(One would think the Sector Duke would retire from active service.) (The picture of a newly elevated young Duke, wearing the uniform of an Ensign trying to assume command of a BatRon has put a smile on my face this morning.)
I don't think a member of the high nobility can be any other career once they have come into their inheritance - being a high noble is a full time job.
And Strephon was promoted from midshipman straight to Grand Admiral
I agree.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Norris resigned his commission when his brother died and he was elevated to Duke.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
There are and will of course be exceptions. The bigest, most obvious, exception being when the Duke also happens to be a serving officer in the Imperial Navy. Then his Imperial Naval Rank would be his level of authority, within his chain of command, unless he also happens to be the Sector Duke.(One would think the Sector Duke would retire from active service.) (The picture of a newly elevated young Duke, wearing the uniform of an Ensign trying to assume command of a BatRon has put a smile on my face this morning.)
I don't think a member of the high nobility can be any other career once they have come into their inheritance - being a high noble is a full time job.
And Strephon was promoted from midshipman straight to Grand Admiral
</font>[/QUOTE]Just goes to show it isn't what you know it is who you know.
There has been a long tradition of Nobles serving in the service. Though usually in command.
Norris' resignation was a choice, it need not have been a requirement. If it were a requirement then having a Social Standing of a certain level would either preclude military service or cause you to muster once reached.
Besides, I like the Honor Harrington feel of having an Ensign who happens to be a Duke.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You could have a Duke serving, even enlisted, in the armed forces. Not all Dukes are members of the high nobility.
Also, wouldn't the sons of Archdukes have the title of Duke until they inherit?
Anyway I doubt if a subsector Duke could be a full time serving member of the military due to the administrative demands of his position.
How about a reserve commission of fleet Admiral (and/or Major General of course )?
Also, wouldn't the sons of Archdukes have the title of Duke until they inherit?
Anyway I doubt if a subsector Duke could be a full time serving member of the military due to the administrative demands of his position.
How about a reserve commission of fleet Admiral (and/or Major General of course
)?good luck. ferreting out that in real life is tough. creating it in a poorly-defined empire spread across 11,000 poorly-defined systems and 2000 years of poorly-defined history (all of it fantasy) will require ... well, it will require many posts.
what do the players want?
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Just because it is a lesser title doesn't make it less than a high noble. Lets say, for example that the Duke of Regina, also happened to include the title of Marquis Regina. (Makes sense given the location of the Ducal Seat.) So if whoever he inherited from, was Duke of Regina, perhaps daddy gave him the title before he inherited the Ducal Seat of Marquis Regina. That is still a high noble but with someone else performing the duties he was free to be elsewhere. Archduke Norris, would still be Duke of Regina. Besides that is what Regents are for. Not all Regencies are a good thing, for example King Richard and Prince John, but the ones that run smoothly daily wouldn't make the news or the history books.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
You could have a Duke serving, even enlisted, in the armed forces. Not all Dukes are members of the high nobility.
Also, wouldn't the sons of Archdukes have the title of Duke until they inherit?
Anyway I doubt if a subsector Duke could be a full time serving member of the military due to the administrative demands of his position.
How about a reserve commission of fleet Admiral (and/or Major General of course
As for the Children of an Archduke, that would depend on what other titles the Archduke had around. To follow the example above, Archduke Norris could Create one Kid Duke of Regina, another Marquis Regina, etc. Kind of like England's Royal Family having titles like Prince of Wales, and Duke of York to pass out to the children.
