The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Hal:
Guys? Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but I think it needs to be asked. Structure does not evolve without reason. To debate a structure requires an idea of the reason behind it. So what is the reason behind it? 5FW states specifically that there are colonial fleets. CT states specifically that there are subsector fleets (We want to call them Duchy fleets). MT states specifically that there are reserves (implying non-frontline forces). Even the latest fighting ships pdf adds to what was not before by saying "Reservists" for D20.

So rather than just say "There are jabberwockies and bandersnatches" willy nilly - lets ask what purpose a jaberwocky serves with its existence and determine if it is a flight of fancy or a needful thing that nature would have created. Or, to stop using analogies - why would a structure evolve to permit the existence of a colonial fleet. What exactly has to exist within the Imperium for a colonial fleet to exist? After all, it is FAR too easy to have built an Imperial Navy that is both Defensive of the Imperium (such as the Imperial navy is described to be) and internal as the subsector navies are thought to be. So WHY have the form/structure? How would that structure need to be built in order to function?

Hal,
What you are saying makes perfect sense. I also think it hits at the heart of the question of Nobles tasking Imperial Navy Fleets.

Given the following information on structure.

The Imperial Navy CT, MT, T20, etc.):
Charged with general defense of the Realm. The Emperor's Big stick. Used for Diplomatic pressure both within and without the Imperium. THe main force for conducting Imperium level war.
Numbered Fleets at the Subsector Level, Named Fleets at the Sector Level. Named Fleets at the Sector Level are comprised of both Normal Numbered Fleets and Reserve Fleets.

The Subsector Navy (CT) aka, unofficially, the Duchy Navy:
The Local Dukes' big stick. Used for local problems and missions. (Piracy suppression, keeping trade routes open, Commerce protection within the Subsector) The first line of defense.
Capable of being called into Imperial Service in times of "need."

The Planetary Navy (CT, MT, T20, etc.):
Usually consists of System Defense Boats, Monitors and other non-jump capable vessels. Some systems may also have Jump capable ships as part of the Planetary Navy.(T20, CT Adventure 7.)

Reserve Fleet (MT, T20):
Comprised of older but still useful ships, and Colonial Squadrons. Crewed by Reservists (T20). Provides backup to the Imperial Fleet. Numbered Fleets at the Subsector Level part of the Named Lfeet at the Sector Level.

Colonial Squadrons (CT, MT, T20)
Locally raised and crewed squadrons that make up part of the Reserve Fleets of the Imperial Navy. Can be comprised of locally produced ships or older yet still useful Imperial Navy ships or a combination of the two.

Those are the broad brush strokes provided thus far in the OTU. Have I missed any? Or have I miscategorized anything?

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Hal:
Or, to stop using analogies - why would a structure evolve to permit the existence of a colonial fleet. What exactly has to exist within the Imperium for a colonial fleet to exist?

The condition for the existence of colonial fleets is quite simple: powerful local warlords with independent military forces.

While any particular warlord can be crushed, their collective power is such that the Imperium finds it preferable to co-opt them rather than try to eliminate them.

Not coincidentally, the Moot has the ability to dissolve the Imperium.

The reserve fleets are (largely) composed of these warlord fleets drafted into Imperial service. Of course they have been heavily regularised and rationalised (hence the hand me down vessels), but at heart they still reflect the power of the local elites, who provide most of the High Nobility.

I gather T20 has explicitly gone with a more complicated interpretation, so my view has been explicitly repudiated in canon. There ya go.

 

[aramis]

hans: Easier answer:Some bigwig changed the titles between the 5FW and 1116; a reorgnization.

 

[Hal]

So what legal rights does a subsector fleet have in light of the fact the Imperial Navy has freedom of movement in ALL portions of Imperial space.

For instance, does a subsector (Ducal?) Fleet have the right to enter the subsector belonging to another Duke? Could a fugitive fleeing from a Subsector navy cross the boundary into another subsector and the subsector pursuing it can no longer pursue? Is a subsector like a jurisdictional boundary much like a town boundary delineates the authority of of police officer as valid in one region, but invalid in the next?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
Or, to stop using analogies - why would a structure evolve to permit the existence of a colonial fleet. What exactly has to exist within the Imperium for a colonial fleet to exist?

The condition for the existence of colonial fleets is quite simple: powerful local warlords with independent military forces.

While any particular warlord can be crushed, their collective power is such that the Imperium finds it preferable to co-opt them rather than try to eliminate them.

Not coincidentally, the Moot has the ability to dissolve the Imperium.

The reserve fleets are (largely) composed of these warlord fleets drafted into Imperial service. Of course they have been heavily regularised and rationalised (hence the hand me down vessels), but at heart they still reflect the power of the local elites, who provide most of the High Nobility.

I gather T20 has explicitly gone with a more complicated interpretation, so my view has been explicitly repudiated in canon. There ya go. </font>[/QUOTE]Now I have yet to see any mention of Powerful Multi-system Warlords in any canon source. Or even Powerful Warlords.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Hal:
So what legal rights does a subsector fleet have in light of the fact the Imperial Navy has freedom of movement in ALL portions of Imperial space.

For instance, does a subsector (Ducal?) Fleet have the right to enter the subsector belonging to another Duke? Could a fugitive fleeing from a Subsector navy cross the boundary into another subsector and the subsector pursuing it can no longer pursue? Is a subsector like a jurisdictional boundary much like a town boundary delineates the authority of of police officer as valid in one region, but invalid in the next?

I would think that in peacetime a subsector/ducal fleet would be limited to its own operations area, unless prior arrangements had been made. Wartime is different, of course.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't there something written somewhere that Imperial jurisdiction begins at the 100D planetary limit?
Everything inside 100D is planetary territory and jurisdiction.
A Duchy Naval squadron could face the same restriction.
As to jumping into another Duchies area of operation, it is probably allowed in certain circumstaces, but is considered impolite...

 

[aramis]

Types of Fleets:

Those Colonial fleets/system squadrons are
a) point of pride for the raising system
b) sometimes used for internal suppression of (Piracy/rebellion)
c) a way to get people where you can indoctrinate them.

The Duchy Fleet/subsector fleet/reserve fleet is to the Duchy and the Duke as the Colonial Fleet is to the world. Same reasons exist, plus some more
a-c) as above
d) part of the duty of the Duchy
e) an internal comm-network.
f) a way of preventing friction with the imperial navy by negating their need to intervene.

Just for reference, I completely disagree with the reserve fleets being different from the subsector fleets. (That would add yet another level of redundancy and confusion.) However, I would agree that they might have a less than 100% overlap in mission; some SSFleet ships might be outside the Reserve fleet. But the reserve fleet is maintained by the subsector, not the IN.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now I have yet to see any mention of Powerful Multi-system Warlords in any canon source. Or even Powerful Warlords.

You must be reading with your eyes closed, then.

 

[mike wightman]

If the Reserve fleet is maintained by the subsector/Duchy then that could be the source of the Duchy Navy squadrons, plus the "Duchification" of planetary/Colonial squadrons in time of Duchy need.
Regular Naval squadrons could then stay under sector orders, unles the Duke declares an emergency and uses his mandate to command them.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now I have yet to see any mention of Powerful Multi-system Warlords in any canon source. Or even Powerful Warlords.

You must be reading with your eyes closed, then. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I am always for reading more. Please, show me where to read with my eyes open.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If the Reserve fleet is maintained by the subsector/Duchy then that could be the source of the Duchy Navy squadrons, plus the "Duchification" of planetary/Colonial squadrons in time of Duchy need.
Regular Naval squadrons could then stay under sector orders, unles the Duke declares an emergency and uses his mandate to command them.

Further if the Duchy has a Fleet or Navy, then a Local COunt or Marquis that needs to whistle up a squadron through channels can send word to the SubSector Duke and have a Task Force on his doorstep, generally, in less than a month. The Subsector Dukes would, only rarely need Imperial Navy support as would anyone below Subsector Duke Level. Since that is the case then getting an Imperial Navy tasking cleared through Sector Command might make sense. (Aside from the obvious, "Help, stop that Pirate from jumping out of the system. My son is a hostage.")

 

[BetterThanLife]

As far as crossing Subsector or Duchy borders with a Ducal Naval element, I would think rules similar to hot pursuit rules would be in effect. Though it would be polite to inform the local command that you are chasing someone. (Preferbly before you actually cross the border, but that isn't always possible.)

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Well it might be hard to tell someone that your comeing when the fastes way to send a message is by ship since there is no FTL communication. Besides caseing someone who is jumping is a whole can of worms in and of it's self. +-30% on astrogation you could arive before or after a ship and how do you claculate how far they jumped? The GM/ refree that I played with allways had the ship jumping, faceing the relitive direction of the jump. Now lets say you have four T class patrol cruisers/escorts and are chaseing a single T class patrol cruiser/escort. Did the ship your chaseing make a jump1, jump2, or jump3. The only way for you to follow is to split for forces or hope that you guess right. Even if you where to guess right you might end up a day ahead or behind them do to the +-30% for jumps.

 

[mike wightman]

IMTU I allow the jump "wake" to be analysed.
Longer jumps require more hydrogen and energy, this should be detectable IMHO. Thus you can tell if a jump of 1 or greater has been attempted.
There's no way to tell an insystem jump from a jump 1 though

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
Well it might be hard to tell someone that your comeing when the fastes way to send a message is by ship since there is no FTL communication. Besides caseing someone who is jumping is a whole can of worms in and of it's self. +-30% on astrogation you could arive before or after a ship and how do you claculate how far they jumped? The GM/ refree that I played with allways had the ship jumping, faceing the relitive direction of the jump. Now lets say you have four T class patrol cruisers/escorts and are chaseing a single T class patrol cruiser/escort. Did the ship your chaseing make a jump1, jump2, or jump3. The only way for you to follow is to split for forces or hope that you guess right. Even if you where to guess right you might end up a day ahead or behind them do to the +-30% for jumps.

Well I did say that informing someone ahead of time was not likely to be practical in a Hot Pursuit scenario. If you knew where they were going then it is hardly hot pursuit. (Usually.) There are of course always exceptions.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If the Reserve fleet is maintained by the subsector/Duchy then that could be the source of the Duchy Navy squadrons, plus the "Duchification" of planetary/Colonial squadrons in time of Duchy need.
Regular Naval squadrons could then stay under sector orders, unles the Duke declares an emergency and uses his mandate to command them.

T20/TA7 does state that there is both a Reserve Fleet organized at Subsector Level crewed by reservists and Colonial Squadrons that, at need, are incorporated into the Reserve Fleet. So here is an OTU canon source that allows both, yet still there is no canon reference to a Ducal Navy. Not saying that the Colonial Squadrons of a Subsector couldn't be organized into such a Navy. Also not saying that it wouldn't be convient to have a Ducal Navy. (Which I like the sound better than Duchy Navy.)

I would, however, like to point out that in most Subsectors, especially on the fringes of the Imperium, there are very few high end shipyards. In the Spinward Marches there are no more than one TLF, Class A Starport per subsector. Now in the Spinward Marches all of those happen to also have a Navy Base, be High Pop and are Subsector Capitals. Ley Sector doesn't designate Subsector Capitals. (Oooops!)

The Majority of the high end ships in a Ducal Navy would be produced and manned from the Subsector Capital. So the heavy hitting part of a Ducal Navy would actually be the Planetary Navy of the Ducal Seat. Just a thought.

 

[Whipsnade]

Bhoins wrote:

In the Spinward Marches there are no more than one TLF, Class A Starport per subsector. Now in the Spinward Marches all of those happen to also have a Navy Base, be High Pop and are Subsector Capitals.

Bruce,

As Rob Davenport continually points out, the Spinward Marches are not indicative of the Imperium as a whole. Neither is the Solomani Rim and neither is Gateway.

The Marches was developed prior to the release of LBB:6 Scouts. Indeed, portions of it were even developed prior to LBB:2 Worlds and Adventures! The intent in creating the Marches was to provide a frontier region rife with danger and adventure on either side of the Imperial border. Thus the Marches is not indicative of the Imperium as a whole.

The Rim was developed after the release of LBB:2 but with certain modifiers in place. One modifier increased planetary populations. Another narrowed the range of potential tech levels. Both modifiers gave the Rim a greater population than the mythical 'average' Imperial sector and a more uniform tech level. Thus the Rim is not indicative of the Imperium as a whole.

The fact of the matter is that the only two Imperial sectors that are detailed on any level are oddities. Because of this, we can only draw sharply limited conclusions about conditions in the rest of the Imperium from the information presented in the Marches and Rim.

We know nothing about Imperial sectors beyond the Marches and Rim. The Sunbane and Genii data sets are hopelessly corrupt, as many have pointed out; especially Chris Thrash, the DGP/MT maps didn't even implement the LBB:6 sysgen correctly, T20 is set in the past and covers yet another special frontier sector like the Marches, TNE is post-apocolyptic, the Keiths' work is set over the imperial border, and T4 is utter rubbish - every world in the Core has the same government and Vland has a population numbered in the thousands?

We've only seen the oddities. We know nothing about the Imperium. We can only draw the most basic conclusions.

Now, as to this colonial/reserve fleet squabbling, colonial fleets are present in the 5th Frontier War boardgame. Tell me, are they also present in Invasion: Earth?

Rather than futilely bashing together differing bits that were never meant to the fit together in the first place(1), has anyone bothered to think that colonial fleets are simply an oddity? That colonial fleets are the exception, just as the regions in which they are deployed are an exception?

Might colonial fleets be a force structure only present in those 'frontier' regions of the Imperium; i.e. the Marches and Gateway? Might the absence of colonial fleets in MT's Rebellion Sourcebook be due to the absence of colonial fleets in the naval force structures of those regions where the majority of fighting during the Rebellion took place; i.e. the Imperial core sectors?

Or is that too easy a solution?


Sincerely,
Bill

1 - Sorry to burst the canonistas' collective bubble, but near perfect continuity is not one of Our Olde Game's strong suits and twisting both canon and explanations into ever more complex Mandelbrot sets in a utterly futile attempt to create what wasn't present in the first place is a behavior that borders on the delusional. Get a life and play the game.

 

[mike wightman]

Larsen E. Whipsnade asked:

Now, as to this colonial/reserve fleet squabbling, colonial fleets are present in the 5th Frontier War boardgame. Tell me, are they also present in Invasion: Earth?

Mr. Whipsnade,
yes the Imperial Colonial squadrons are mentioned in Invasion Earth.
There are five numbered Colonial BatRons, and one more named as Leptus.
There are seven numbered Colonial CruRons, and one more named as Hiram.
There are lots of Colonial ground force units.

Neither of those named squadrons are world names I've come across though.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
hans: Easier answer:Some bigwig changed the titles between the 5FW and 1116; a reorgnization.

Bad answer, since the name change is the least of it. The biggest part is a fundamental organisatorial change. CT's subsector fleets are specifically distinct from the Imperial Navy; MT's reserve fleets are specifically part of the IN.

I've pointed that out several times before, BTW. The reserve fleets are not merely another name for the Subsector Navies. They're a bona fide substitution for the Subsector Navies. A substitution that I for one think was a bad idea and would like to see re-retconned.


Hans