The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

[The Oz]

Historically, the way to organize things when you had such long communication delays was to give the forward commanders all the information possible as fast as possible and trust them to make the right decision, based on the intent of their original orders and their basic mission (in this case, to defend the Imperium).

There are also standing orders: if X happens, do Y. Of course, these standing orders can be far more complex and I'd imagine it'd be a major part of the planning staff's job to draft good standing orders taking into account the planned movement of other forces, training and repair schedules, etc.

In wartime, I imagine the Imperial Navy works with a "hands-off" approach to command; Sector Command mostly serves as an information conduit (getting intelligence to the tactical commanders) and a reinforcement/logistics center. Sector Command takes its orders from the Sector Admiral, who takes his orders from the Sector Duke and Domain Archduke.

Peacetime is different. I think that Sigg has the right idea for normal operations: the local Navy forces still have their general orders from Sector Command, but exactly how those orders are put into effect depends on a lot of things, including what the local noble wants. However, I don't think that a local Navy officer has to obey the local Noble, no matter how high a noble that is, but not listening to the noble will get the Navy officer in trouble, the trouble depending on just what the officer did do instead, and how much actual power that noble wields.

 

[aramis]

Personally, I think that some where between 1107 and 1115, the Navy formally drafted the Subsector Navies into the position of reserve fleets. Likewise, it's obvious that naval ranks became formalized into the fleet, sector, and grand admirals.

I suspect the navy maintains fairly clear, but multiple, command chains; he operational unit is the ship. A ship answers to the commodore of their squadron, no matter who is aboard, but all the admin officers submit reports directly to the Commodore of Administration for the Numbered fleet. Likewise, the Engineer reports to the captain and the Commodore of Engineering. Each fleet likewise maintains that dual reporting. (This is, in fact, how much of the military in the US operates, as well as most other modern militaries.)

The difference comes in that subsector dukes and Sector Dukes can order assets within their demenses to do things that don't violate certain boundaries. Lesser imperial serving nobles can only ask (although they may have their own navies, which are system squadrons, or even in some cases, multi-world polity navies); lord help the Naval Commodore or Captain who refuses a polite, and good for the imperium, request without a good reason.

Non serving nobles, tho, including honor and hereditary nobles, had better have a good reason to even ask. They will get slightly more credence than "Joe Average", but are likely to get little better than an "I'll look into it, your excellency" response.

Now, IMTU, Rear Admirals are non-line Fleet Admirals. Vice Admirals are non-line Sector Admirals. EG, the Engineering Branch Admiral for a secotor is "Vice Admiral of Engineering".His subsector equivalent is "Rear Admiral of Engineering". Mostly cause I like the titles.

Due to the comm lags, the senior officer of a situation MUST HAVE more authority than we would give today. A modern officer is never more than a few hours from contact (with certain special ops exceptions, including subs) with higher command. Unless an IMMEDIATE response is required (like hostile fire or infiltration), he can bounce it up to higher command.

An Imperial Navy command officer is in a situation where he has to make a decision whether or not a two week wait is appropriate. So, if an honor-duke calls him to say, "Hey, there's pirates on this Asteroid", he may as well check it out if he's not due elsewhere, or tied up on other matters. If the planetary baron asks for a lift to a subsector moot meeting, well if he can afford to spare the courier, why not? (It builds good will, and that baron MIGHT be promoted. And it is good for the Imperium.)

If the same baron calls the fleet and says "Hey, these local radicals took power and are building a Planet Buster, despite my warnings, and the goons are coming for me..." he's probably going to listen, and had better do something. If he KNOWS it won't be ready for three weeks, bounce to higher command and see if he can exfiltrate the baron. If the baron says it launches tomorrow, the captain had better take some hard intervention.

Now, a susector duke could quite literally order the reserve fleet/duchy navy/subsector navy ships to do any of the above and execute any who fail to try.... likewise, the sector duke with any naval... but those grand admirals and archdukes can rake them.

Then again, IMTU, only dukes owe their fealty directly to the Emperor; the fealty of lessors is dual to both the duke and the emperor through the duke. Thus the duke receives their fealty in loco imperator.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
How do you figure 10 weeks? Naval Courier, or TJ is a 6 week turn around. Further, because of the nature of communication in Traveller, once actual war starts Forward Command Posts would be set up, either for Fleet Commanders or deputies. The primary axis would be for the actual commander, secondary situations would be for Deputies. Further reducing communication lag.

Regina to Mora is 20 parsecs, that's a minimum of four jumps at jump 5 or 6. The extra fortnight is to allow for refuleling, jumps that take more than seven days exactly, message analysis and order writing at the far end.
If you want to ignore these, then it can be done in only eight weeks

Further, because of the nature of communication in Traveller, once actual war starts Forward Command Posts would be set up, either for Fleet Commanders or deputies. The primary axis would be for the actual commander, secondary situations would be for Deputies. Further reducing communication lag.

I agree completely, that's what Naval bases are for.

What makes you think that large scale military operations would take less time in the future than they do now? The planning stage generally takes longer than the actual operational stage.

I don't, Traveller does
I've always thought that the one week turns of the FFW game are unrealistic.

However that assumes that the operational commanders and the local nobility are kept in the loop on the broad, overall strategic planning cycle. To include knowing what are deception plans, all the Intel, what the estimates on the enemy intentions are, etc. Military and Intelligence operational realities say that is not likely or possible. Just because, in your own infinite wisdom and long experience as a Squadron Commander, you feel you have time to listen to the local Marquis that you need to take out a Pirate base that will only delay your deployment by 3-4 weeks. But you don't know what the top level plans actually are. The Marquis believes he has all the answers. Yet his planet might be set up to be bait.

You're thinking too much in the modern paradigm with real time communications. With month long delays between orders, situation analysis, changes to orders, local fleet commanders have to be given as much info and intel as possible. The same for the subsector level nobility. It's no use Delphine knowing the FFW is going to kick off if she doesn't communicate the fact to Norris. It works the other way, too.
And as I said, if the squadron is moving under sector level orders with an "ignore others" clause, then the local nobles can't shanghai them.

Ever hear of a place called Coventry. The City was sacrificed without warning, though how much the British could have actually done to protect the city and population is debatable, to keep the Germans from finding out that the British had cracked their codes.

Yes, I know about the deception that cost the lives of thousands of men, women and children.

Some lowly squadron command isn't going to have that much information. And if the orders can exclude Imperial Mandate then all orders would have that boilerplated into them, if for no other reason than to disguise the ones that really need them. (Though more likely to keep the local nobility from fragging up the High Commands plans.)

As I said, the squadron commander needs as much info as possible, he's too far from HQ for it to work any other way.
The orders to move squadrons from naval base to naval base, or fleet level maneuvers, or sector wide maneuvers would all be covered by the non-interference order IMHO. But once on station at a given Naval base the squadrons patrol orders would allow for local nobles to "make polite requests". Otherwise the Navy isn't doing its job of protecting the planets within the Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

GURPS Traveller mentions Strephon's Naval reforms post FFW. I'll have to go and read up and see if any of that could fit into the OTU with the Rebellion and MT canon.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
How do you figure 10 weeks? Naval Courier, or TJ is a 6 week turn around. Further, because of the nature of communication in Traveller, once actual war starts Forward Command Posts would be set up, either for Fleet Commanders or deputies. The primary axis would be for the actual commander, secondary situations would be for Deputies. Further reducing communication lag.

Regina to Mora is 20 parsecs, that's a minimum of four jumps at jump 5 or 6. The extra fortnight is to allow for refuleling, jumps that take more than seven days exactly, message analysis and order writing at the far end.
If you want to ignore these, then it can be done in only eight weeks </font>[/QUOTE]Ooops I can't count. I counted 18 before I wrote that. On the other hand between the Subsector Capitals and the Sector Capital it is extremely likely that there will be prepositioned couriers. SImilar to the X-Boat network. So there is no time spent on things like refueling. The only thing that will take time is the thinking about a response, and so I have been informed military planning takes only a week for major decision and plans.

In war time though with a major thrust into the Coreward end of the Regina Subsector I would think one of the Deputy commanders would actually be on Regina. So going through channels would be something similar to crossing the street.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Some lowly squadron command isn't going to have that much information. And if the orders can exclude Imperial Mandate then all orders would have that boilerplated into them, if for no other reason than to disguise the ones that really need them. (Though more likely to keep the local nobility from fragging up the High Commands plans.)

As I said, the squadron commander needs as much info as possible, he's too far from HQ for it to work any other way.
The orders to move squadrons from naval base to naval base, or fleet level maneuvers, or sector wide maneuvers would all be covered by the non-interference order IMHO. But once on station at a given Naval base the squadrons patrol orders would allow for local nobles to "make polite requests". Otherwise the Navy isn't doing its job of protecting the planets within the Imperium. </font>[/QUOTE]That doesn't cover operational security realities. Especially when dealing with an enemy that actively practises Psionics. I mean it is all well and good to say that. It sounds good on paper. And we can always trust the encryption on the couriers. (Ultra from the other side.) But it just can't possibly work that way. For example while the commander is having his conference with the Marquis, the XO is having lunch with the Starship captains of the taskforce. The XO has to know everything the Captain does in the event of the incapitation of the CO, as does each of the Starship Captains, in the event of the destruction of the Flag Ship. So here they sit in a nice restaurant talking about the weather, because they aren't going to discuss Operational plans in public. When a Zhodani spy notices them sitting there and reads their minds and now knows the operational plans for the entire sector. So much for OPSEC. But it doesn't even have to be there because every Starship Captain needs to know the big picture. I know it is a game and Science Fiction and all that, but military operational realities must intrude.

When the Admirals went to Midway to intercept a Japanese Task force, Admiral Nimitz didn't brief them on why or how they knew the Japanese were going to be there.

When George Patton had fuel withheld and supplies transferred to Montgomery he wasn't told why Monty was getting priority of supply. (At least intially.) When the supplies were running thin in Stalingrad the Russian commanders weren't told why they were only getting minimal supplies and replacements. (Because the Russians were building up a counter attack force to sweep around the city.) To this day nobody knows why the Red Army, put on US uniforms and liberated Plzen, Czech Republic from the East as part of a deception plan. (At least that is what they told the Czechs.

)

It comes under the heading "Need to Know" WHile in the days of less than instanteanous communication the commander on the ground may need to know more he certainly isn't going to know more than he needs to do the job assigned. Which in the example is to move from point A to point B and meet up with a Battlegroup. He doesn't know more because he doesn't need to know more. And since the Marquis Mille Falcsisn't involved in the planning because it isn't in his area, he knows even less.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
That doesn't cover operational security realities. Especially when dealing with an enemy that actively practises Psionics. I mean it is all well and good to say that. It sounds good on paper. And we can always trust the encryption on the couriers. (Ultra from the other side.) But it just can't possibly work that way. For example while the commander is having his conference with the Marquis, the XO is having lunch with the Starship captains of the taskforce. The XO has to know everything the Captain does in the event of the incapitation of the CO, as does each of the Starship Captains, in the event of the destruction of the Flag Ship. So here they sit in a nice restaurant talking about the weather, because they aren't going to discuss Operational plans in public. When a Zhodani spy notices them sitting there and reads their minds and now knows the operational plans for the entire sector. So much for OPSEC. But it doesn't even have to be there because every Starship Captain needs to know the big picture. I know it is a game and Science Fiction and all that, but military operational realities must intrude.

Which is why the Imperials are so paranoid about Zho spies and psionics.
The Naval officers probably wouldn't leave their ships - they are in transit remember. The conversation would be conducted via secure comms or the noble would have to ship up to the squadron.
Plus psi-helmets are standard issue

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
When the Admirals went to Midway to intercept a Japanese Task force, Admiral Nimitz didn't brief them on why or how they knew the Japanese were going to be there.

That's because his fleet elements were all in communication range of each other, and the battle plan could be detailed at the last minute.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
It comes under the heading "Need to Know" WHile in the days of less than instanteanous communication the commander on the ground may need to know more he certainly isn't going to know more than he needs to do the job assigned. Which in the example is to move from point A to point B and meet up with a Battlegroup. He doesn't know more because he doesn't need to know more. And since the Marquis Mille Falcsisn't involved in the planning because it isn't in his area, he knows even less.

Hence the need for sector level movement orders.

I agree with all of your need to know examples and the need for operational secrecy, but if the secor Duke has authorized a pre-emptive strike on the Zhodani, subsector Dukes will have to know so that they can declare war locally and mobilize accordingly at the decided time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Bhoins wrote:

That doesn't cover operational security realities.

Bhoins,

Please repeat after me...

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.


There, three times should do the trick...

All your examples take place in a world with (near) instantaneous communications. The defenders of Stalingrad couldn't be told about Operation Neptune because, if there was the slightest leak, the Germans could have made preparations. Fletcher and Spruance couldn't know about Purple because, if the fact that their codes had been cracked became evident, the Japanese could have made preparations.

In Traveller there is no radio and no telegraph, all they have is the pony/ponii express. Operational security becomes a wholly different animal in that situation. If a Zho psi spy on Regina gets the goods about an Imperial offensive, his information still needs to cross a distance ~20 parsecs and spend over a month of time to get to the proper ears.

The operational security realities of the 57th Century Third Imperium are nothing like your 21st Century preconceptions.

May I suggest you check out the TML Archives from late last year for a series of AARs concerning a double blind game of FFW? You'll get to see just what a 4 parsec per week comm delay is actually like.

We really need to drop our 21st Century, Instantly Wired World, Western cultural blinkers when theorizing about the 57th Imperium. The preconceptions we bring to the table do our ideas no good whatsoever.


Sincerely,
Bill

 

[The Oz]

I agree with Larsen that we can't apply our current military culture to the 3rd Imperium, which is why I usually invoke the historical parallel with the Age of Sail.

There is a very good book on intelligence and command control during the Age of Sail, titled Most Secret and Confidential by Steven Maffeo, available from the Naval Institute Press. I would recommend you all read it (if you've not already) to get a look at the problems and solutions of the sailing ship era.

There are several points made in this book:
</font>

• While the British Admiralty usually gave commanders general orders/mission assignments and then left execution up to the local commander, it did sometimes issue orders to individual ships or small forces, which deprived local commanders of those ships (and irritated those commanders no end).</font>
• The Admiralty served as a clearinghouse for intelligence information from national sources (spies) and local commanders, redirecting intelligence to those who could use it.</font>
• Local commanders were expected to, heck they usually had to, get most of their immediate intelligence (how many enemy ships are in my operations area, where are they and what will they be doing next week) themselves, from their own resources, up to and including running their own little spy rings.</font>
• Local commanders didn't have to listen to anyone except their immediate military superiors and the Admiralty, and they could even disobey those if they felt the end result was worth it. Members of their own government in their local area (ambassadors, governors) counted for very little except as sources of information.</font>
• Since local commanders could be months away from the Admiralty, they had to have a good understanding of the government's overall war policy and how that policy was to be put into effect in their area of operations.</font>

Even in peacetime, naval officers on distant posts (like the West Indies) didn't have to obey local governors, especially if the governor was telling the commander to do something against pre-existing orders. Nelson got into a lot of local trouble for continuing to enforce the Navigation Act against local British merchants, even when the West Indies governor wanted Nelson to look the other way (as previous officers had done).

 

[flykiller]

ponii express

(laugh) now there's a good name for a ship or a company.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Bhoins wrote: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That doesn't cover operational security realities.

Bhoins,

Please repeat after me...

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.

No FTL comms, messages travel at the speed of shipping.


There, three times should do the trick...

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually up until the very recent past. (Late 70s at the earliest.) Mission orders, and things other than short spot reports and the like were transmitted via Courier. Yes that includes WWII, and even Viet Nam. Operations Orders were simply too big and bulky to transmit via radio. Until reliable, secure fax, and battlefield computers (Beginning Mid 80s for the fax, late 80s early 90s for the computer.), op orders were trasnmitted by courier. Now on occasion during WWII and certainly afterwards, orders went by plane, but in WWII planes were still considered unreliable. So orders generally went by dispatch driver, either by motorcycle, Jeep or Destroyer.
The reason Ultra and Purple were such goldmines weren't because the orders were sent that way, they weren't, but people yacked about the orders using the encryption. They were piecing parts and pieces together to attempt to figure out what the orders actually were.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
When the Admirals went to Midway to intercept a Japanese Task force, Admiral Nimitz didn't brief them on why or how they knew the Japanese were going to be there.

That's because his fleet elements were all in communication range of each other, and the battle plan could be detailed at the last minute. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually according to Nimitz's book the battle plan was laid out at Pearl, face to face, before the Task Forces left for Midway.

Remember in WWII, long range radio coms were unreliable and generally not voice but Morse. Encrypting a message, then converting to morse, would take hours. Transmissions tended to be short and brief to prevent the enemy from figuring out your location. In WWII the majority of voice traffic was short range tactical chatter. (Generally within a Squadron, or a Company.)
ANything long range was kept brief and short. Both because encrypting it was a pain and since you were using morse a pain to transmit and receive. (Especially if you don't want the enemy finding you.)

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually up until the very recent past. (Late 70s at the earliest.) Mission orders, and things other than short spot reports and the like were transmitted via Courier. Yes that includes WWII, and even Viet Nam. Operations Orders were simply too big and bulky to transmit via radio. Until reliable, secure fax, and battlefield computers (Beginning Mid 80s for the fax, late 80s early 90s for the computer.), op orders were trasnmitted by courier. Now on occasion during WWII and certainly afterwards, orders went by plane, but in WWII planes were still considered unreliable. So orders generally went by dispatch driver, either by motorcycle, Jeep or Destroyer.
The reason Ultra and Purple were such goldmines weren't because the orders were sent that way, they weren't, but people yacked about the orders using the encryption. They were piecing parts and pieces together to attempt to figure out what the orders actually were.

It helps that you can use a radio to exactly locate the ships you want to courier the orders to.
During the age of sail this wasn't practical.
Also, a fast naval courier could cross the Pacific in about a weeek to ten days. It takes months to relay orders around the OTU.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
[Duchy Navy] is another (and more correct) name for the subsector navies mentioned in High Guard as constituting the middle tier of the Imperial naval structure. It is an Imperial organization, but one distinct from the Imperial Navy. The system navies are likewise separate organizations. They are no more part of the duchy navy than the duchy navy is part of the IN.

So another equivalent name (though longer winded so Duchy would probably work better) would be Subsector Colonial Navy? </font>[/QUOTE]No, because I want to emphasize that (IMO) these navies are organized on a duchy-by-duchy basis rather than a subsector-by-subsector basis.

So you also believe that there should be an Imperial Level Reserve Fleet in addition to the Duchy Navies?

Yes. Whenever possible I like to adjust conflicting bits of canon into a coherent whole instead of eliminating them. Reserve fleets are mentioned in MT, so I suggest keeping them. All I want is to restore the Duchy Navies too.

MT Canon didn't mention Colonial Fleets...

Neither did CT. CT did mention Duchy [Subsector] Navies, however.

...but it doesn't say they don't exist either. (At least as far as I have found researching this topic so far.)

The fact that you can't join a Duchy Navy in MT, that all references to them in the MT Character Generation System have been search-and-replaced by references to Reserve Fleets, and that they're not mentioned at all are all pretty strong bits of evidence, IMO.

THe difference between Fleet and Navy is largely a matter of perspective.

I disagree. A navy is an organization, the sum total of a political entity's naval power; a fleet is a bunch of ships. A duchy navy belongs to a duchy and can be organized into one or more fleets (Or none, if the navy small). A subsector fleet may belong to the IN and be so called merely because it is stationed in said subsector. The difference between fleet and navy is significant.

From the Duchy it is a Navy but from the point of view of the Imperial Navy it is at most a Fleet, more likely an outsized Squadron or Task Force.

From the point of view of the IN the difference is much that same as the difference between the British Royal Navy and the American 6th Fleet to the USN. (Not a perfect analogy, because the US can't 'americanize' the RN, but I hope you get my point anyway).

So for common everyday use, in a Duchy that isn't expecting an invasion by a major interstellar power, the Duchy would hardly need more than a handful of cruisers and the bulk of the Duchy Navy would be in the Corvette to Destroyer Escort range with the normal big guns coming as a Destroyer.

That would handle the duties a duchy has to its member worlds, but a duchy also has a duty to support the Imperium. When the Imperium calls for help, a duchy is expected to be able to furnish a reasonable number of cruisers and battleships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Now, IMTU, Rear Admirals are non-line Fleet Admirals. Vice Admirals are non-line Sector Admirals. EG, the Engineering Branch Admiral for a secotor is "Vice Admiral of Engineering".His subsector equivalent is "Rear Admiral of Engineering". Mostly cause I like the titles.

But in the OTU vice admirals perform at the level below that of individual fleets, so they can't be the rank-equivalent of sector admirals. And Vice Admiral Elphinstone was a line officer (he commanded a task force). So obviously YTU differs from the OTU in this respect.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Even in peacetime, naval officers on distant posts (like the West Indies) didn't have to obey local governors, especially if the governor was telling the commander to do something against pre-existing orders.

That's a very broad statement. It's probably legally true in some instances. It definitely wasn't legally true in all instances (see the quotes below). It probably wasn't true in practice even where it was legally the case. I had a discussion on this subject a couple of years ago, and did some research. A history of India of mine is full of references to the governor-general (and later the Viceroy) having military authority, starting wars, negotiating peaces, even giving instructions to admirals (well, one admiral). And, no, the governor-general wasn't a military officer. He had a commander-in-chief under him (well, one governor was his own commander-in-chief).

Another reference I found has this to say about the authority of a royal governor:

"With this fundamental principle in mind, the main features of the commission may be easily summed up. The king was the fountain of honor and privilege, and had thus the right to create offices and to fill them: therefore the provincial governor had the right to appoint all officers. The king was commander-in-chief of the army and navy: the governor was captain-general of the provincial military forces, as well as vice-admiral. The king, by virtue of his prerogative, might prorogue and dissolve Parliaments, although this power was limited by the triennial and septennial acts: the governor's commission, however, conferred it without limitation. The king had the right of legislation in conjunction with the two houses of Parliament: the governor was empowered to make laws with the consent of the council and assembly. The similarity is even more striking in minor points. The governor, like the king, had in theory the right to grant charters of incorporation to cities and towns, and to establish ports, markets, and fairs; he had the right of pardon, except for treason and felony; and in ecclesiastical matters he had certain rights of appointment to benefices. The character of the governor's office as drawn in the commission is thus clearly vice-regal."

[http://www.dinsdoc.com/greene-2-6.htm ]

And:

" Historically one of the first departments of executive power to assume prominence was the military power, the command of the armed forces of the State. By the English constitution the king was regarded as the commander-in-chief of the army and navy; he had the sole right to raise armies and fleets and to regulate them; it was his prerogative to establish and garrison forts and other places of strength. In this, as in other matters, the governor was the king's representative. His commission authorized him, either directly or through officers of his appointment, to arm, muster, and command all persons residing within his province; to transfer them from place to place; to resist all enemies, pirates, or rebels; if necessary, to transport troops to other provinces in order to defend such places against invasion; to pursue enemies out of the province; in short, to do anything properly belonging to the office of commander-in-chief. These powers were to be exercised by the governor independently. Furthermore, he might, with the advice and consent of the council, establish fortifications and furnish them with supplies; and in time of actual war he might also with the council's consent execute martial law."

[ibid.]

Mind you (I wouldn't want you to think that I was concealing information) the text goes on to say that in specific instances these powers were often limited in various ways. The governor of Virginia, for instance, had authority over regular troops only when there were no general officer of the crown in the province. OTOH it also mentions that at one time Governor Shirley of Massachusetts held the chief command of all the forces in America. (Each governor had a commision that could differ markedly from that of other governors and in addition he was issued instructions that could further limit his commission but could be changed administratively).


All in all, I think that the reality of the situation was that naval officers did have to obey the instructions of local governors unless the governor was telling the commander to do something against pre-existing orders.


Note that I don't mention these historcal instances as evidence of how things are done in the 3rd Imperium. I mention them to refute the claim that a military organization cannot possibly survive having a civilian with authority over the chain-of-command.

It may or may not be a bad idea. But it definitely isn't so disastrous an idea that it is inconceivable.

And since it isn't inconceivable, we must accept it when canon claim that such is, indeed, the case.


Hans

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It helps that you can use a radio to exactly locate the ships you want to courier the orders to.
During the age of sail this wasn't practical.
Also, a fast naval courier could cross the Pacific in about a weeek to ten days. It takes months to relay orders around the OTU.

And you can do the same once you get close in the OTU. The point was and still is that communication has been far from instanteous. Until very recently, it also was fairly uniform in terms of application. SO that while it may take a couple of weeks for a Destroyer carrying orders to Cross the Pacific, it took the enemy the same couple of weeks. (And god forbid those orders were transferred by Sub.)

Yes it may take months to organize and get orders out but it is the same for both sides. Yes the situation may cause a local commander with a bit of initiative, to be able to react quickly to an opportunity in his command area, without orders from on high. However the Commander better generally stay in his command area. Or the couple of months to organize and transmit orders quickly goes to 6 months or even a year. The longer the lag in time it takes for things to happen the more important it is for a Unit to be where it is supposed to be. (To prevent further delays.)

Traveller Military conflicts would be more like set piece battles, not sudden lunges based on recently developed Intel. You can't do the equivalent of Operation Iraqi Freedom, with the time it takes to send and receive messages.

Yes it may take the Zhodani spy a couple of months to get his report back to the relavent chain of command, but it is also going to take months just to organize a Task Force for movement.

Yes it would be quicker for local commands to be autonomous, however a local command without coordination with other units doesn't have the firepower superiority to truly effect the outcome of a war. That requires concentration of forces on a scale that exceeds the local commanders capability. (Unless you are going in and crushing a small pocket empire.)

For examples on how Naval combat would, or should work, in Traveller I recommend (strongly) the Honor Harrington books by David Weber. They have a drive that would be considered superior to Jump drive but still don't have FTL comms. (Well during the series FTL comms are developed for local use, but overall there are no FTL comms.)

I will gladly admit that my thoughts on how the Imperial Navy should work are strongly influenced by that series, as well as military history.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually up until the very recent past. (Late 70s at the earliest.) Mission orders, and things other than short spot reports and the like were transmitted via Courier. Yes that includes WWII, and even Viet Nam. Operations Orders were simply too big and bulky to transmit via radio. Until reliable, secure fax, and battlefield computers (Beginning Mid 80s for the fax, late 80s early 90s for the computer.), op orders were trasnmitted by courier. Now on occasion during WWII and certainly afterwards, orders went by plane, but in WWII planes were still considered unreliable. So orders generally went by dispatch driver, either by motorcycle, Jeep or Destroyer.
The reason Ultra and Purple were such goldmines weren't because the orders were sent that way, they weren't, but people yacked about the orders using the encryption. They were piecing parts and pieces together to attempt to figure out what the orders actually were.

It helps that you can use a radio to exactly locate the ships you want to courier the orders to.
During the age of sail this wasn't practical.
Also, a fast naval courier could cross the Pacific in about a weeek to ten days. It takes months to relay orders around the OTU. </font>[/QUOTE]Conversely, it hurts that your unit can be precisely located by the enemy when using that same radio.

 

[Hal]

Guys? Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but I think it needs to be asked. Structure does not evolve without reason. To debate a structure requires an idea of the reason behind it. So what is the reason behind it? 5FW states specifically that there are colonial fleets. CT states specifically that there are subsector fleets (We want to call them Duchy fleets). MT states specifically that there are reserves (implying non-frontline forces). Even the latest fighting ships pdf adds to what was not before by saying "Reservists" for D20.

So rather than just say "There are jabberwockies and bandersnatches" willy nilly - lets ask what purpose a jaberwocky serves with its existence and determine if it is a flight of fancy or a needful thing that nature would have created. Or, to stop using analogies - why would a structure evolve to permit the existence of a colonial fleet. What exactly has to exist within the Imperium for a colonial fleet to exist? After all, it is FAR too easy to have built an Imperial Navy that is both Defensive of the Imperium (such as the Imperial navy is described to be) and internal as the subsector navies are thought to be. So WHY have the form/structure? How would that structure need to be built in order to function?