The Universal Game Mechanic

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WJP:
[qb] .

Now, I know you use a Stat/3 MT tweak, but still...CTI provides distinction between every stat. There's a difference between INT-6 and INT-5 and INT-4, whereas your MT tweak doesn't provide that distinction.

If that's not important to you--well, it's just not important to you.

I hate it when people unintentionally lie lie a cheap rug.

Which you did. I don't think you realized it.

There is a differentiation bewtween stats in MT, just not in tasks.</font>[/QUOTE]C'mon, Bill. We're talking about tasks and task systems here.

Of course stats are used for other things.

I use them all the time for many different types of things--just look at my chargen rules I posted. There's all types of stat checks in there.

But, we're talking about task systems here, and my point has always been that each level of a character's natural ability (their stat) should be referenced during a task test, and different results should be possible at different levels.

(BTW, you're right, above. No slight was intended.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WJP:
[qb] .

Now, I know you use a Stat/3 MT tweak, but still...CTI provides distinction between every stat. There's a difference between INT-6 and INT-5 and INT-4, whereas your MT tweak doesn't provide that distinction.

If that's not important to you--well, it's just not important to you.

I hate it when people unintentionally lie lie a cheap rug.

Which you did. I don't think you realized it.

There is a differentiation bewtween stats in MT, just not in tasks.</font>[/QUOTE]C'mon, Bill. We're talking about tasks and task systems here.

Of course stats are used for other things.

I use them all the time for many different types of things--just look at my chargen rules I posted. There's all types of stat checks in there.

But, we're talking about task systems here, and my point has always been that each level of a character's natural ability (their stat) should be referenced during a task test, and different results should be possible at different levels.

(BTW, you're right, above. No slight was intended.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
This may be completely off, as I haven't looked at CTI or UGM in detail, but what about introducing a 'cap' on skill levels at, say, 5? This seems to work in percentile systems (100%+ is very rare in BRP).

Just a thought (and probably not enough of one).

I understand where you're coming from, but one of my goals with either system (UGM or CTI) is to not make any major changes to the CT official rules. Either of these task systems would be considered "no good" by me if I made a major change to CT as written--a requirement is that they need to fit, plug-n-play with CT.

If I implemented a rule where there was a Level-5 cap, I'd have to change character generation and much more of official CT that I'm willing to do.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

BTW, I've got a different idea I'm working on for UGM. I might have a fix for the stat problem--I'll put this in a different post.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
This may be completely off, as I haven't looked at CTI or UGM in detail, but what about introducing a 'cap' on skill levels at, say, 5? This seems to work in percentile systems (100%+ is very rare in BRP).

Just a thought (and probably not enough of one).

I understand where you're coming from, but one of my goals with either system (UGM or CTI) is to not make any major changes to the CT official rules. Either of these task systems would be considered "no good" by me if I made a major change to CT as written--a requirement is that they need to fit, plug-n-play with CT.

If I implemented a rule where there was a Level-5 cap, I'd have to change character generation and much more of official CT that I'm willing to do.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

BTW, I've got a different idea I'm working on for UGM. I might have a fix for the stat problem--I'll put this in a different post.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by WJP:
If I implemented a rule where there was a Level-5 cap, I'd have to change character generation and much more of official CT that I'm willing to do.

I don't understand what you mean by this? I've rarely seen CT characters with level 5 skills, and none with 6. IIRC the Hero of the Galaxy in Supp 4 (?) was statted as having 5 in all skills.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by WJP:
If I implemented a rule where there was a Level-5 cap, I'd have to change character generation and much more of official CT that I'm willing to do.

I don't understand what you mean by this? I've rarely seen CT characters with level 5 skills, and none with 6. IIRC the Hero of the Galaxy in Supp 4 (?) was statted as having 5 in all skills.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Takei:
I don't understand what you mean by this? I've rarely seen CT characters with level 5 skills, and none with 6. IIRC the Hero of the Galaxy in Supp 4 (?) was statted as having 5 in all skills.

Agreed, that Level-5's in CT are rare, and anything higher than that is rare too.

I have, once (and I mean once) rolled a character with a Level-7 skill using plain vanilla CT Basic chargen.

It can happen.

Just not very often.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Takei:
I don't understand what you mean by this? I've rarely seen CT characters with level 5 skills, and none with 6. IIRC the Hero of the Galaxy in Supp 4 (?) was statted as having 5 in all skills.

Agreed, that Level-5's in CT are rare, and anything higher than that is rare too.

I have, once (and I mean once) rolled a character with a Level-7 skill using plain vanilla CT Basic chargen.

It can happen.

Just not very often.

 

[far-trader]

Well I had decided to just drop this since you seemed disinclined and appeared to be dropping the subject. Now that you're back and the discussion continues...

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Umm, universal system for CT?

It's a Traveller theme...UPP - Universal Personality Profile....UWP - Universal World Profile...USP - Universal Ship Profile....

Heck, even the MT task system, which was originally created by DGP for Classic Trav, was called the UTP - Universal Task Profile.

Thus, I called this system the UGM - Universal Game Mechanic.</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, I got that. My points (poorly made through not-so-clever words) were two fold.

One, "Game Mechanic" is perhaps too vague. It should be more "task" or "skill" check specific yes? Like UTP which I do recall, or maybe USC (universal skill check) if we must make it different from the already used ones.

Two, as I pointed out, it can't be universal between game versions, there are too many differences. Or if it is to be truly universal it'll need specific patches to work for each version. As pointed out even the differences between basic CT and advanced CT are significant though you seem unconvinced.

The formula is a good starting point.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:Would that be Basic characater generation or Advanced character generation?

Either. This system would work well with MT or T4 chargen as well.</font>[/QUOTE]Nope, it won't. The difference between even basic and advanced generation is about double the number of skills/ranks. That IS significant and it doesn't really matter that some of those are different skills entirely. You'll still have higher averages in the common skill sets and the advanced characters will have other skills that just aren't available to the basic characters without experience. I'm not sure how MT or T4 would come into it (and shouldn't probably) but MT is at least close to advanced generation. I seem to recall T4 being another paradigm entirely.

Again, the solution I'd suggest is a general modifier to even the playing field. A penalty for Advanced generated characters and/or a bonus for Basic generated characters.

A simple +1 for basic characters to reflect their more school of hard knocks and life experience, and a simple -1 for advanced characters to reflect their more formal education and limited life experience. That's how I see the two.

And the mods are not that big but do add a whole new game within the game. Do I go for Basic generation, as a regular working John and gain the general bonus reflecting my wider life experience? Or should I go for Advanced generation, as a formally educated and trained Jane, and suffer with the general penalty showing my more limited life experience?

I know you don't agree and don't think it's necessary but I think it is and that it would make the (insert acronym of choice) work. And as a bonus the two methods of character generation are again valid and the game is enriched.

 

[far-trader]

Well I had decided to just drop this since you seemed disinclined and appeared to be dropping the subject. Now that you're back and the discussion continues...

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Umm, universal system for CT?

It's a Traveller theme...UPP - Universal Personality Profile....UWP - Universal World Profile...USP - Universal Ship Profile....

Heck, even the MT task system, which was originally created by DGP for Classic Trav, was called the UTP - Universal Task Profile.

Thus, I called this system the UGM - Universal Game Mechanic.</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, I got that. My points (poorly made through not-so-clever words) were two fold.

One, "Game Mechanic" is perhaps too vague. It should be more "task" or "skill" check specific yes? Like UTP which I do recall, or maybe USC (universal skill check) if we must make it different from the already used ones.

Two, as I pointed out, it can't be universal between game versions, there are too many differences. Or if it is to be truly universal it'll need specific patches to work for each version. As pointed out even the differences between basic CT and advanced CT are significant though you seem unconvinced.

The formula is a good starting point.

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:Would that be Basic characater generation or Advanced character generation?

Either. This system would work well with MT or T4 chargen as well.</font>[/QUOTE]Nope, it won't. The difference between even basic and advanced generation is about double the number of skills/ranks. That IS significant and it doesn't really matter that some of those are different skills entirely. You'll still have higher averages in the common skill sets and the advanced characters will have other skills that just aren't available to the basic characters without experience. I'm not sure how MT or T4 would come into it (and shouldn't probably) but MT is at least close to advanced generation. I seem to recall T4 being another paradigm entirely.

Again, the solution I'd suggest is a general modifier to even the playing field. A penalty for Advanced generated characters and/or a bonus for Basic generated characters.

A simple +1 for basic characters to reflect their more school of hard knocks and life experience, and a simple -1 for advanced characters to reflect their more formal education and limited life experience. That's how I see the two.

And the mods are not that big but do add a whole new game within the game. Do I go for Basic generation, as a regular working John and gain the general bonus reflecting my wider life experience? Or should I go for Advanced generation, as a formally educated and trained Jane, and suffer with the general penalty showing my more limited life experience?

I know you don't agree and don't think it's necessary but I think it is and that it would make the (insert acronym of choice) work. And as a bonus the two methods of character generation are again valid and the game is enriched.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Dan, I think the Basic v Advanced fight is something that can't really be accounted for in the task system. (But, I am chewing over your thoughts.) The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players. One of the "fun" things I have been doing is trying to generate characters in one system, then re-generate them in another system - using the same rolls/choices/etc. Tain't easy....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Dan, I think the Basic v Advanced fight is something that can't really be accounted for in the task system. (But, I am chewing over your thoughts.) The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players. One of the "fun" things I have been doing is trying to generate characters in one system, then re-generate them in another system - using the same rolls/choices/etc. Tain't easy....

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players

Didn't we start this with CT+...
I know I made a couple

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players

Didn't we start this with CT+...
I know I made a couple

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
One, "Game Mechanic" is perhaps too vague. It should be more "task" or "skill" check specific yes?

I kinda like "Universal Game Mechanics". I see your point, but UGM has a ring to it to me.

Two, as I pointed out, it can't be universal between game versions, there are too many differences. Or if it is to be truly universal it'll need specific patches to work for each version. As pointed out even the differences between basic CT and advanced CT are significant though you seem unconvinced.

The UGM is strickly a CT system. It's not meant for another version of Traveller.

Nope, it won't. The difference between even basic and advanced generation is about double the number of skills/ranks. That IS significant and it doesn't really matter that some of those are different skills entirely. You'll still have higher averages in the common skill sets and the advanced characters will have other skills that just aren't available to the basic characters without experience. I'm not sure how MT or T4 would come into it (and shouldn't probably) but MT is at least close to advanced generation. I seem to recall T4 being another paradigm entirely.

We'll have to disagree on this, I guess. I've run enough T4, MT, and CT characters, both basic and advanced, to see that the number of skills is typically increased, but the levels of the skills rarely get Level-6 or over.

This task system is designed for and can easily handle (I've about got all the numbers worked out on this one) skills Level-0 to Level-6.

It won't be a problem using the UGM with either basic or advanced characters.

Again, the solution I'd suggest is a general modifier to even the playing field. A penalty for Advanced generated characters and/or a bonus for Basic generated characters.

Again, not necessary.

If it was necessary, then something like that would have been included with the DGP/MT task system. Joe Fugate, when he designed the DGP task system, didn't see a need for it, and neither do I.

A simple +1 for basic characters to reflect their more school of hard knocks and life experience, and a simple -1 for advanced characters to reflect their more formal education and limited life experience. That's how I see the two.

If you end up using the UGM in your game, then your GM's house rule would be appropriate for this.

I know you don't agree and don't think it's necessary but I think it is and that it would make the (insert acronym of choice) work. And as a bonus the two methods of character generation are again valid and the game is enriched.

I've about got the UGM worked out to where it produces results very similar to the DGP/MT task system and still produces differentation between stats.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one. I appreciate you making the point--I like to hear opinions like this--I just don't agree with you about it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
One, "Game Mechanic" is perhaps too vague. It should be more "task" or "skill" check specific yes?

I kinda like "Universal Game Mechanics". I see your point, but UGM has a ring to it to me.

Two, as I pointed out, it can't be universal between game versions, there are too many differences. Or if it is to be truly universal it'll need specific patches to work for each version. As pointed out even the differences between basic CT and advanced CT are significant though you seem unconvinced.

The UGM is strickly a CT system. It's not meant for another version of Traveller.

Nope, it won't. The difference between even basic and advanced generation is about double the number of skills/ranks. That IS significant and it doesn't really matter that some of those are different skills entirely. You'll still have higher averages in the common skill sets and the advanced characters will have other skills that just aren't available to the basic characters without experience. I'm not sure how MT or T4 would come into it (and shouldn't probably) but MT is at least close to advanced generation. I seem to recall T4 being another paradigm entirely.

We'll have to disagree on this, I guess. I've run enough T4, MT, and CT characters, both basic and advanced, to see that the number of skills is typically increased, but the levels of the skills rarely get Level-6 or over.

This task system is designed for and can easily handle (I've about got all the numbers worked out on this one) skills Level-0 to Level-6.

It won't be a problem using the UGM with either basic or advanced characters.

Again, the solution I'd suggest is a general modifier to even the playing field. A penalty for Advanced generated characters and/or a bonus for Basic generated characters.

Again, not necessary.

If it was necessary, then something like that would have been included with the DGP/MT task system. Joe Fugate, when he designed the DGP task system, didn't see a need for it, and neither do I.

A simple +1 for basic characters to reflect their more school of hard knocks and life experience, and a simple -1 for advanced characters to reflect their more formal education and limited life experience. That's how I see the two.

If you end up using the UGM in your game, then your GM's house rule would be appropriate for this.

I know you don't agree and don't think it's necessary but I think it is and that it would make the (insert acronym of choice) work. And as a bonus the two methods of character generation are again valid and the game is enriched.

I've about got the UGM worked out to where it produces results very similar to the DGP/MT task system and still produces differentation between stats.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one. I appreciate you making the point--I like to hear opinions like this--I just don't agree with you about it.

 

[Leaf]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I want to get into this. It seems a little heated, but...

Assuming the above task system really is broken, which I'm not making a judgement on yet, because I haven't fiddled with it enough...

I think the task system should be made to work with advanced chargen, but also that basic chargen should be modified a bit to bring it in-line with advanced. This could probably be done pretty easily by increasing the number of skills that are rolled for per term, unless that would lead to (in comparison with advanced) a smaller pool of skills with higher values.

Hmm...

 

[Leaf]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I want to get into this. It seems a little heated, but...

Assuming the above task system really is broken, which I'm not making a judgement on yet, because I haven't fiddled with it enough...

I think the task system should be made to work with advanced chargen, but also that basic chargen should be modified a bit to bring it in-line with advanced. This could probably be done pretty easily by increasing the number of skills that are rolled for per term, unless that would lead to (in comparison with advanced) a smaller pool of skills with higher values.

Hmm...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Dan, I think the Basic v Advanced fight is something that can't really be accounted for in the task system. (But, I am chewing over your thoughts.) The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players.

There are two very easy fixes if you want your Basic characters to come out, skill-wise, like your advanced characters.


------------
Fix #1
------------

The simple addition of the "Special Duty" role that DGP put into the MT Basic chargen pretty much does it. It does a damn good job of making the battlefield "even" between the basic and advanced chargen's.

If you don't have a copy of the MTPM, all you do is roll a number (indicated in the MT Basic charts) or higher to get an extra skill during the term.

ALSO, MT allows an extra skill during the term IF any of these throws, during the term, are exceeded by 4+ : Commission (or Position), Promotion, or Special Duty.


So...

Typically, Basic characters get two skills for the first term, then one skill every term after that.

If they make the Special Duty roll, they get another skill.

They get a skill if they make a Commission (or Position).

They get a skill if they make a Promotion.

And, if the Special Duty, Commission, or Promotion rolls are exeeded by 4+, then two skills are awarded instead of one.

If you change your CT Basic chargen around to use these simple rules (all that's really added is the Special Duty roll and the 4+ check), your Basic character will be on par with your Advanced characters.


-----------
Fix #2
-----------

The second fix is something I came up with. You can see it in my "Extended Character Generation" topic.

During the term, the character can take his normal allotment of two skill for the first term and one skill for every term after that--

--but, on any term, the character may try for more skills.

He gives up his automatic skill (there is risk in this) for a try at getting more skills during the year.

If he tries for two skills, he must roll 2D for 7+. He makes that roll twice, gaining a skill when he's successful.

If he wants three skills, he rolls 2D for 8+, making the roll three times, getting askill when he makes the roll.

And, if he wants to go for four skills, it's a 2D throw for 9+, making the roll four times.

In each case, the character will typically average about one skill. But, if the player is lucky with the dice, he could get more--and if he's not lucky, he'll get none (he'll still get skills for promotion, special duty, etc).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Dan, I think the Basic v Advanced fight is something that can't really be accounted for in the task system. (But, I am chewing over your thoughts.) The best way to do it is to either limit your players to one or the other (which might mean coming up with advanced chargen for the other 8 careers - thank goodness for Freelance Traveller!) and stick to that system for all your players.

There are two very easy fixes if you want your Basic characters to come out, skill-wise, like your advanced characters.


------------
Fix #1
------------

The simple addition of the "Special Duty" role that DGP put into the MT Basic chargen pretty much does it. It does a damn good job of making the battlefield "even" between the basic and advanced chargen's.

If you don't have a copy of the MTPM, all you do is roll a number (indicated in the MT Basic charts) or higher to get an extra skill during the term.

ALSO, MT allows an extra skill during the term IF any of these throws, during the term, are exceeded by 4+ : Commission (or Position), Promotion, or Special Duty.


So...

Typically, Basic characters get two skills for the first term, then one skill every term after that.

If they make the Special Duty roll, they get another skill.

They get a skill if they make a Commission (or Position).

They get a skill if they make a Promotion.

And, if the Special Duty, Commission, or Promotion rolls are exeeded by 4+, then two skills are awarded instead of one.

If you change your CT Basic chargen around to use these simple rules (all that's really added is the Special Duty roll and the 4+ check), your Basic character will be on par with your Advanced characters.


-----------
Fix #2
-----------

The second fix is something I came up with. You can see it in my "Extended Character Generation" topic.

During the term, the character can take his normal allotment of two skill for the first term and one skill for every term after that--

--but, on any term, the character may try for more skills.

He gives up his automatic skill (there is risk in this) for a try at getting more skills during the year.

If he tries for two skills, he must roll 2D for 7+. He makes that roll twice, gaining a skill when he's successful.

If he wants three skills, he rolls 2D for 8+, making the roll three times, getting askill when he makes the roll.

And, if he wants to go for four skills, it's a 2D throw for 9+, making the roll four times.

In each case, the character will typically average about one skill. But, if the player is lucky with the dice, he could get more--and if he's not lucky, he'll get none (he'll still get skills for promotion, special duty, etc).