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The Vilani -- biological quirks unique to them?

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Ancients wiped themselves out c.300,000 years ago, long before any kind of Terran human civilisation.
Of course, that is if you think of the Ancients as a singular civilization of super-Droyne over chartered space. My take is to take Ancients in the plural therefore, there were numerous civilizations present in -3000000. These would include super-powered humans (which Marc has endorsed) as well as more primative TL 15 civilizations.

It is only natural that the remanents of these civilizations could have visit Terra, not so much to kidnap humans but perhaps have other purposes only known to them.

Furthermore, there is no recorded human civilization on Terra but there is nothing to say that the traces of another civilization was not wiped out during the Final War.
 
That could be kinda fun in a way. Ever read "Encounter With Tiber" by Buzz Aldrin (and someone else I think)? In that an alien humanoid race land on Earth a few thousand years in the fertile crescent that ends up being worshipped by the locals. And all those wacky biblical things (like Ezekiel's chariot of fire, and the big pillar of fire that's seen somewhere) are things like shuttles crashing or motherships desperately trying to stay aloft.
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Perhaps I am getting offended too easily. However I might note that you have no way of knowing that the "wacky" things in the Bible did not happen just as described. Don't say the people who wrote the Bible were "ignorant savages who didn't know such things were impossible". Of course they knew such things were impossible in the normal course of nature, that is why they felt them worthy of note: they were highly unusual events. The writers believed rather in the possibility of divine intervention superseeding the normal course of nature. There is not, and one cannot see the possibility of there ever being any way of testing whether such intervention is possible(I suppose someone could commit suicide but then he couldn't report his findings very easily).
In any case a large number of the people here do believe such things literally took place, or have relatives that do, and would find making Elijah's chariot into a Vilani ship highly offensive. A GM must sometimes respect his players sensibilities. Even when he thinks them "wacky".
 
I call them "wacky" in the sense of having no interpretation that fits with what is known at the time (other than - funnily enough - flying vehicles, unusual volcanic eruptions or other such strangeness).

My own opinion is that a lot of the strange events in the bible (if they really did happen) read more like a technologically advanced civilisation intervening in the development of a primitive one. Indeed, I dare say if we were to go back in time a few thousand years with nuclear weapons (annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah), fighter planes (Elijah's Chariot), flamethrowers (the burning bush) and megaphones (general Voice From On High) then I dare say we could duplicate many of the events described in the bible by onlookers who didn't have any reference for what they were observing.

That can't be proven either way of course, but then neither can the biblical explanation of divine beings and the wrath of god. If you take offence at that interpretation then I apologise, but then the book is rather open to interpretation on these matters.
 
There've been several TV shows over the last few years that have suggested plausible natural explanations for a lot of these "wacky" biblical events.
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several of which have been considerably less probable, then the original version. I heard one that said that the walls of jerico came tumbling down because of the sonic waves from the trumpets, which is another way of saying that they just huffed and puffed and blew them down. I find the Vilani vistors easier to believe!
Be that as it may my real annoyance is with the word "wacky", which I find slightly insulting. Many of the smartest people in human history believed in those things(and still do, try to take on a trained apoligist-arguer-from any decent seminary; at a debating table and you will find a challenge).
On the other hand I can't complain to much as I sometimes call others wacky( and indeed did a little earlier).
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky". I'm really not supposed to-that is matching "railing for railing"(in modern English, returning insults). But here I am.
Anyway I expect a lot of people are tired of this and want to get back to Traveller.
 
"Hey, buddy, we're Christians, and we don't like what you said."

"So then forgive me."

- Bill Hicks

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky".[/QB]
Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". :rolleyes:

I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
 
well, the odd stuff like Elijah's flying chariot, the pillar of fire, the razing of Sodom, the burning bush, voices from on high, angels talking to people, going up the mountain to get the commandments, etc.

I'm aware that some natural explanations have been offered for some of those events and I'm more inclined to believe those (but keep in mind that just because there IS an obvious natural explanation, it doesn't mean that actually happened), but all the talk of "angels" and "voices from on high" sounds suspiciously to me like intervention from an advanced race attempting to guide our evolution. But coupled with all those rock paintings and carvings in South America showing what have been interpreted as showing gods that look like spacemen and flying vehicles, and it starts to look very fishy.

I've no more evidence that this may have been the case than anyone else of course (or even that many of those events happened), it's just a thought.


But just assume that it is true for a moment: How would we react if we discovered solid evidence that we had been visited by aliens in the past who had influenced our history in such a strong way. What would such a race's motivations be? Was there more than one race giving us different "gospels" at different stages between 1000 to 2000 years ago? Are we turning out how they planned? How would we react if we made contact with aliens and discovered that they were in fact "angels"? How would we react if all we found of their civilisation was ruins?
 
If they left solid evidence, then that would make them very irresponsible influences, and would more likely than not cause Earth civilization to self-destruct. I think. This from what I remember about advanced-tech human groups showing up on the doorstep of primitive-tech human groups. The result is usually the destruction or degradation of the more primitive-tech group.

Or am I generalizing?

Shalena in bagaan. We come in peace, and not to enslave you.
 
The result is usually the destruction or degradation of the more primitive-tech group.

Or am I generalizing?
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You are generalizing.
When differing cultures interact they are almost inevitably both changed. It is not inevitable that the more primitive group is destroyed or degraded. In fact as I remember Adam Smith believed that until his time the more primative group had generrally had the advantage.
When the Romans came to Europe the result was both good and bad for the locals. The bad part is fairly obvious "they make a dessert and call it peace"-Tacitus. There was also plenty of good: the usual roads, bridges, Pax Romanna, etc. European society was changed beyond recognition. However it is a stretch to say that a Western society that can reach the moon, create the internet, and eliminate mass famine and mass plague from large parts of the world is a "degradation" from the society before. We would not be what we are without Rome, Greece, the Jews, and less directly, the Arabs, the (Asian)Indians and the Chinese.
There are other possible results. Rome was to a large degree degraded by it's contact with the Germanics in a most direct manner when the Goths sacked Rome. China, which for many centuries had the highest tech level in the world certainly didn't degrade, or destroy the Mongols(until comparitively recently), and we all know what the Mongols did to China.
Even the fammiliar examples, like the Native Americans, always have exceptions. The Plains Indians actually got a bounce in power and influence for several generations by acquiring the horse from the Spaniards.
However in any case there is a problem as positively overwhelming technological differences seldom took place until the last few centuries. When there was a difference it was in a few key areas such as iron, or sailing ships(I deliberatly leave out gunpowder as I think the advantage the Europeans had is exaggeratted: Asians had muskets and cannon too, and North American Indians had thick forests which tended to negate the advantage somewhat).
One thing that is left out is cultural organization. The difference between tools "hardware" is seldom as great as the difference in culteral organization "software". Caesar conquered Gaul not because the "gladius" shortsword was so superior to the Gauls swords, but because the leigion was so superior to the warband. Overwhelming organizational superiority certainly existed many times in the past. When contact occured there were a number of possible results.
 
Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]

I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
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Of course they were "unusual" that is why they were recorded.
In any case it would have been more diplomatic to say "unusual" in the first place.

And by the way the
"Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]"
line seems to give an air of, "there, there it's OK". On the other hand it is hard to talk to someone with a different worldview without sounding condescending sometimes. I have had that problem myself.
I regard things like this(including the Bible) as very important and do not see the Church as a mere alternative to staying home and watching football.To insult the Bible is to insult an important part of my faith.
But this getting unpleasant. I can see why Traveller warned about letting religious discussion into the game.
 
On the other hand I can accept that that was not intended as a direct insult to me. Nor was it intended as an insult to my faith(God can take care of himself-and if he got mad over every minor or accidental irreverance we would all be in trouble).
I doubt you meant to offend.
 
Sounds like the new Geico commericals talking about cavemen.

And I don't mean to offend but it is a funny series of 3 commericals.

Dave
 
Personally, I've never had the fortune to converse with a burning bush. Just as much as some here deeply believe in the bible there are also many of us who regard the bible as a remarkable collection of stories and philosophical parables that carry as much weight as the myths of the ancient Greeks, the Eygptians, the Vikings, the Chinese, etc etc. Fascinating and fun to read but not literally true.

I suppose those of us with this opposing view could get our knickers in a twist but what's the point? If Malefant wants to run his game based in a way that explains biblical events as the result of scientific intervention then that is his right and it may offend you but you are still free to believe what you believe.

I'll make a deal with you. I won't come to your house and ridicule your beliefs if you won't come to my house to tell me what to believe.
 
I'll make a deal with you. I won't come to your house and ridicule your beliefs if you won't come to my house to tell me what to believe.
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That depends on what you mean "tell you what to believe". I have never understood the complaint people have with proselyters-as I said once earplugs aren't all that expensive. The ones I have seen(often Watchtowers, Mormons, and even Buddists, despite the fact that from what I know they don't go in for that as much) tend to be nice amiable people who would never knowingly hurt anyone. But I hardly intend to "go to your house", nor for better or for worse do I flaggerently show off my faith much(except in philisopophical debates where that is expected). I usually talk this way on the net only when conversational trend heads that way. In any case telling others what to believe is to some degree a natural coralary of believeing something-if something is believed to be true-does anyone believe what they believe to be false?-(and even reletiveists believe in their belief that it is true that their is no truth, however they manage to explain that), than it follows that someone else would be better off "know" what one "knows" oneself. Exchange of information is a net improvment to society-not even thinking about the next world. However yes it can be obnoxious at times and I hardly wish to be obnoxious.
As a by the way, I have never told the net before but I have had "unusual" things happen to me. Not in the "it-must-be-true-or-i-must-be-nuts" category. However several times I have misplaced something, prayed that I would find it and then found it a second later. Too often to dismiss it as chance. A psychologist might say that my prayer simply pushed some unconscious "search button" in my brain(though I often think that shrinks have more than a bit of "wackiness" about them-even as I am annoyed at being called wacky. Go figure.). Or he might say that I was conditioned to expect it by habit. Whatever.
As I said it cannot be proven whether or not supernatural intervention is possible. The "Vulcan" types who think that reason is the begining of wisdom are as wrong as the reletivists who think reason is meaningless. Ones worldview depends on something besides reason.
Thus:
All Vargr are treacherous
Dhurzader is a Vargr
Therefore Dhurzader is treacherous

is wrong. We know by observation that many Vargr are treacherous. We assume that it is more common than among Humanati-by observations taken of only a part of the Vargr population. We don't know that ALL Vargr are treacherous. Therefore whether or not we believe Dhurzader before we meet him to be treacherous depends on how we view Vargr. Or whether we think it moral to have such expectations at all.
Likewise we know that miracles are unusual. Whether or not we believe them impossible depends on our belief. Some will desperatly hold on to the most outragous theories-anything but admit the possibility of a miracle. In other words they prefer an explanation that is known to be nearly impossible, to one whose probibility cannot be guessed because their worldview dictates it. They depend on faith as much as anyone else.
But I like to debate too much. Am I droning on? Don't worry I am happy to quit now.
 
For crying out loud, I'm sorry I mentioned the darned book (Encounter with Tiber) in the first place. Sheesh.

Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith. I am not remotely religious myself (I'm a pretty hardcore scientist actually. There's no room in my universe for faith in "higher powers" particularly given what I know of mankind's irrelevance in the universe at large in both time and space), but regardless of what I think of it I don't go round just insulting people for what they believe. And in this case, I insulted nobody. I merely pointed out that some of the events in the bible were "wacky". Maybe that was the wrong word to use, but either way there are many events described therein that are unusual (assuming they happened at all). That's all I was saying, and I'd very be surprised if anyone in this day and age disagreed with that assessment. I do think however that if you take any comment or questionmark over any of the events in the bible as an insult then you really are not the best person to be discussing them in a public forum.

I did not say that you were wacky for believing it, or that your faith was wacky. If you're offended by my possible alternative interpretation of events then I'm sorry, but I offer it as an alternative that may be appropriate in the Traveller setting given the interventions of other races in human evolution. Either way, no offence was intended. I hope I have made myself clear enough for you here.

Now do we think we could kinda get back on topic, please?! (or at least, move this to Random Static where it belongs)
 
The ones I have seen(often Watchtowers, Mormons, and even Buddists, despite the fact that from what I know they don't go in for that as much) tend to be nice amiable people who would never knowingly hurt anyone.
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I should say wouldn't WIllINGLY hurt anyone, not knowingly. The Mormans I understand, have a mildly warlike reputation as befits the tamers of Utah, and many of them have served the Republic in battle quite gallantly. Watchtowers are of course pacifists, so I can't say the last about them. I hardly want to be taken to imply that just because these people are nice, I think them babies. As a matter of fact I admire the dedication of many of those people though I think them to be erring. But they would probably think me erring as someone no doubt notes.
Yes I said I wanted to quit, but first I want to make sure I didn't come off as patronizing toward others.
 
Gentlesophonts,

For your reference, I submit the name of an old Terran, oft cited as the foremost expert of his time in 'Alien' visitations and interventions.

Erich von Däniken, born -2315 (1935ce). He seemed to have faded into obscurity after founding an amusement park in -2246 (2004ce), as there is no record of his death in the Vilani Historical Archives. Some of his books were:

Chariots of the Gods -2283 (1968ce)
Gods from Outer Space -2281 (1970ce)
The Gold of the Gods -2280 (1972ce)
In Search of Ancient Gods -2279 (1973ce)
Miracles of the Gods -2278 (1974ce)
Signs of the Gods -2273 (1979ce)
Pathways to the Gods -2269 (1981ce)
The Eyes of the Sphinx -2254 (1996ce)
The Return of the Gods - Evidence of Extraterrestrial Visitations. -2253 (1997ce)
Odyssey of the Gods - An Alien History of Ancient Greece. -2250 (2000ce)

I don't know if I have the dates converted correctly, as ancient Solomani history is not my field.

-KR
 
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