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[MJD]

An observation: People opposed to TNE tend to become obsessed with the "it could not spread through the Transponders!" idea.

Well, okay. It IS one means, but that's all. The M:1248 take will aseume that much more is known about Virus; some of the stuff postuilated in TNE is in fact a best-guiess based on available information.

 

[rancke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
An observation: People opposed to TNE tend to become obsessed with the "it could not spread through the Transponders!" idea.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not I. I've always interpreted the Virus to be a disembodied psionic entity whose natural habitat was computers and had an especially easy time infecting a deyo chip. Since psionics is the magic of the Traveller universe, no one can say that can't do this or can't do that. All you need is to be careful to define what it can and what it can't. Jumping from one ship to another even without radio contact is not ruled out, although IMTU radio contact makes it easier.

What I could never stomach was the concept of the imperium forcing its neighbors to install a 'black box' manufactured by the Imperium in all thier ships. I don't care how valuable trade with the Imperium is, such a demand would be unacceptable to a friendly state, never mind the Solomani, Zhodani, Vargr, K'Kree, and the Julians (Besides, trade is a two-way street; let the neighbors refuse to allow any ship carrying such a transponder to enter their territories and the Megacorporations would pretty soon have that requirement removed again.

Also, I resented the fact that the unforgable and un-switch-off-able transponder was contrary to a lot of other canonical material.

Here is the revision I did to make the deyo transponder conform to both good sense and other canon. Note that in this version the neighbors steal transponders and make their own copies for themselves.

"The Deyo chip project was concieved and sold to the Emperor as a way to create an unforgable transponder. In 1086 the researchers thought they had reached their goal with the developement of the SDG-313F chip. It was made mandatory for Imperial ships in 1088 and over the course of 12 years retrofitted into all existing vessels. But long before that human ingenuity had managed to circumvent the supposedly unforgable transponder. For the most part genuine transponders were stolen and programmed with false information (the military version of the transponder, specifically designed to be able to put out false IDs, was especially popular, but also, of course, much harder to come by) but other methods were also used. The most resourceful rival interstellar states even managed to duplicate the chips and create their own versions. The rarest, but also most efficient, method was for a psi adept with computer empathy to "seduce" the chip into broadcasting false information even though the chip "knew" it was false. Fortunately computer empathy is an extremely rare talent.

Despite all this, the Imperium stuck to the Deyo transponder. The reason was simple: Even though the transponder was not completely safe, it was vastly safer than the one it replaced (For this reason the technology was also adapted and used by other interstellar states). The fact that admitting the truth would cause an enormous loss of face to some very powerful Navy people may also have played a part; certainly the Imperial authorities never admitted officially that their transponders were not 100% safe.

Unofficially the number of transgressions mounted as powerful corporations decided that they did not want their commercial rivals to know everything they did and began using "alternate" transponders in steadily increasing numbers. By 1107 the practice was so widespread that while private individuals would still get into very serious trouble if caught using them, interstellar companies could use them with relative impunity as long as they were discrete about it and didn't break too many other laws in the process."


Hans
-----------
IMO it ought to go without saying that if you work in another person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I know it doesn't, so I hereby give explicit permission for Marc Miller and anyone else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as background material.

Hans Rancke-Madsen

 

[MJD]

This is the first time I've said this *anywhere*, but my vision of Virus is rather close to Hans', and I can't imagine the transponder being enforced elsewhere either.

WHich makes the disclaimer important. I *DO* have to say that I did not take my vision for virus from someone else, but I'm glad that at least one person with a similar idea isn't going to make my life difficult about it....

 

[kafka47]

When logically reasoned, like the debate regarding Organic cores for Imperial computers. Hopefully, you will not get any arguements. Just stay away from the Magic stuff, focusing upon the high politics and intrigue...and TNE mark III ought to be fine. But, as someone earlier explained their notion of psionic life, I think I could buy into that as well.

MJD, the secret I think is keep the virus very much in the background. The black curtain ought to be so hideous that no one would want to go there.

 

[Kentares]

Well... dont ask me to explain but I like the Virus story arc (as a future tech virus not as a psionic entity) like I wrote in another thread.

As for the future of TNE (which I like very much the concept - it reminds me of a Mad Max in space

I trust on you to give the best shot at it.

I´m a "fanatic" about TNE but I can accept (cant do nothing can I?) that you change the story to please a majority of players (and users of this forum).

 

[MJD]

IN 1248, the Curtain is open. What's inside is a 55-gallon drum of worms for all concerned. Virus is just a tiny part of all that....

 

[Elliot]

Posted by MJG

'People opposed to TNE tend to become obsessed with the "it could not spread through the Transponders!" idea.'

In reply to me, but not me!

I'm not opposed to TNE! - look at the posts on this forum for proof

I'm bitter about the Cymbeline chip thing because in my campaign during the Hard Times, the Cymbeline chips were used by the liberal wing of the Solomani Party to renovate the Nazi empire into a new tolerant interstellar state. This was the way GDW (not DGP) were taking the Solomani (in my interpretation) (boo-hoo).

Nilsen's use of Signal GK and the Cymbeline chips was fine by me - all things dark and dystopian is cool!

What I hated was that the explanation for the spread was something that previous canon and especially Hard Times had already made highly unlikely to happen.

I also hated the fact that Traveller, which was refreshingly never a Yanks in Space game, suddenly became Twilight 2000 in the Old Expanses (or worse still The Price of Freedom in space!).

I also hated Nilsen's flimpant style - When a RPG laughs at itself as much as TNE, its time to sell it on to WotC!

The continual references to C20th Earth sucked too - Jewish Itthkur, 'They're all dead dave' YUCK!!! = No such thing in CT or MT.

MJD - I look forward to your supplement - hopefully you will rescue the Virus from its creator's (DN) folly!

 

[MJD]

Other than the fact that I suspect Jewish Ithlkur are MY invention, I can't argue.

Suffice to say that while I like many aspects of the RC and TNE setting in general, some things made me suck my teeth. Not Virus, more the habit of quoting 20th century music and such like.

This will be MY vision, and it's both darker and more heroic. But don't expect all the endings to be happy... (evil grin?)

 

[T. Foster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
Other than the fact that I suspect Jewish Ithlkur are MY invention, I can't argue.

Suffice to say that while I like many aspects of the RC and TNE setting in general, some things made me suck my teeth. Not Virus, more the habit of quoting 20th century music and such like.

This will be MY vision, and it's both darker and more heroic. But don't expect all the endings to be happy... (evil grin?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it just won't seem like TNE to me unless you revive the time-honored tradition of condescending editorial columns in which you apply pop-psychoanalysis to deduce the hidden agendae behind every criticism of your work

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Well it just won't seem like TNE to me unless you revive the time-honored tradition of condescending editorial columns in which you apply pop-psychoanalysis to deduce the hidden agendae behind every criticism of your work

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So THATS how you do it! Look out T20 playtesters I've got you now!

Hunter

 

[far-trader]

Now this is getting interesting! I may have to re-evaluate and return to the fold. When TNE and Virus first came out I loved it but everybody I knew got hung up on the whole "Virus wouldn't work" thing, and we never really played it out. I like your "dark vision" setting more and more. I'll be watching...


and waiting...

 

[MJD]

I expect the Editorial Column tradition isn't really my style. I'm more likely to try to throttle detractors if I run into them at conventions.

Might be an idea to recruit some Traveller Enforcers to help with that....

 

[hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
I expect the Editorial Column tradition isn't really my style. I'm more likely to try to throttle detractors if I run into them at conventions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've considered that at some cons, but it scares off the other customers...

Hunter

 

[psyop6]

I knew the Imperium was on its way out in aroung 1985 or so...I had asked Marc if the presence of CAPT Dominic Flandry in the "Guess-Who" section of 1001 Characters or Citizens of the Imperium (I forget which) implied that the the Imperium was on the long slide into the darkness. His reply (accompanied by a smirk) was "Oh, yes...". I just didn't expect it to go so fast!

Bob
The Bagel Lancer

 

[Thelor]

My 2 cents:
I always hated the 3rd imperium.
Everything explored. Everything overseen by the might of the imperium. Nothing is unexpected in the 3rd imperium. Nothing is seen for the first hand by the players.
The players actions doesn't affect the timeline in any way.

So I love(d) TNE with its star vikings!
Where the players acts really counts. No imperium to come to save the day here.
No super powers with super big fleets around the corner either.
The virus, somewhat silly , still is a magic mystery that suits my campaigning needs.

I have very high hopes of the 1248 TNE book now in testing. I hope there will really be uncharted space. Wilds! Where every thing is possible.
No super borderpatrol always nearby to save vs piracy or worse.
I wish to see alot of pocket empires with tension and brinks of warfare between them.
Spying, intrigue , diplomacy and trade millions of possibilities!
MORE to do for the daring PC!

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Thelor:
My 2 cents:
I always hated the 3rd imperium.
Everything explored. Everything overseen by the

A Highliner's cutter with passenger module is ferrying a group of passengers over to Glisten Starpot.

Steward: "Attention passengers. Next stop is the Glisten Starport. Among others things, please remember, Glistenites consider the terran house cat to be a lucky and privileged animal due to their historical signficance. Don't harm any during your stay, and you'll skip a stiff Cr2500 fine and possible jail time up to one month. Also, people react negatively to negative opinions of cats, so be careful how you refer to them, especially when dealing with businessmen."

Passenger A: Leans over to Passenger B: "Hey, I've lived in Glisten Main for sixty years, and that attitude he's talkin' about, although once true, started fading out when I was still a boy. There was even a municipal animal control cat roundup ten years ago to put a cap on all wild population living in the back alley ways and old air shafts; it was all a big public nuissance, having so many wander about, half sick from near starvation."

Passenger B is thinking: Thanks, I'll figure it out first-hand when I get there.

Originally posted by Thelor:
might of the imperium. Nothing is unexpected in the 3rd imperium. Nothing is seen for the first

Hmm, the TU I used to run seems to have been a different one than you were running in. The unexpected was the order of the day. I made it a point to make sure that something the PCs thought about the "next" starsystem, even if only some small cultural quirk, wasn't what the PCs had learned in some other star system.

Originally posted by Thelor:
hand by the players.
The players actions doesn't affect the timeline in any way.

Why not?

Just look over here: Foreven.com's Campaigns Page, and you will find campaign logs from a Traveler game that, in various incarnations, has been going on for more than twenty years. In that game, the players have done many things (including averting the entire 5th Frontier War, which never happened in that TU), and explored many unknown mysteries and places (the whole setting abounds in an intricate network of mysteries).

Whether or not the PCs can "affect" things is entirely up to the GM, it's entirely unrelated to the milieu/setting.

Originally posted by Thelor:
So I love(d) TNE with its star vikings!
Where the players acts really counts. No imperium to come to save the day here.

Well, at least IMTU, the Imperium, when it did cross path with PCs and NPCs alike, tended to be highly self-interested, typically pissing off all sides with it's relatively high-handed arrogance (and I even tend to view my Imperium as "bright", rather than "dark").

Originally posted by Thelor:
No super powers with super big fleets around the corner either.

Around the corner? Wow. Well, I am a big fan of giant fleets, that's certain. But I always had them massed at a few (unavoidably) well known strategic points. Unless the PCs either went to the fleets, or somehow wound up at a trouble spot that had been developing for months in adance (sending out waves of the news of the event well in advance), they just wouldn't have run into them.

Originally posted by Thelor:
MORE to do for the daring PC!

Well, all I can say is I tried my best while running my campaign (way back in the mid-eighties, in the Golden Age, before Rebellion, before Virus). I must say, I always found plenty for the PCs to explore (both in space and in mysteries).

 

[Malenfant]

RoS - I think you're taking Thelor too literally

I think the 3I is a deathly dull setting. It's too internally stable, and PCs make no difference at all in the grand scheme of things.

TNE on the other hand makes the PCs much more important - they're on the front line of bringing civilisation to the wilds. The setting is so much smaller that they have a real chance of going up in the world and influencing the decisions of the RC. And everything that was once so familiar has now changed, and there's no guarantee that a given world in the wilds will be the same between one visit and the next. All of a sudden, the universe has become dynamic in a way that the 3I never was.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
RoS - I think you're taking Thelor too literally

Ow! I've been skewered by my own sword!

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think the 3I is a deathly dull setting. It's

A setting is only as fun as you make it.

<insert ridiculous statements about TNE>
The TNE setting may be viewed in an alternate manner: The TNE setting is without shape or form, undifferentiated. Endless blown-out worlds ruled by endless little psycho-tyrants and a techno-villain I'd find more believable if it hadn't been invented by the Imperium itself (it needs to be several TLs higher). PCs are stuck doing the same thing over and over, tech-seeker missions for the RC, cut up only by the variability of what crazy tech-loss situation each particular Wild's society has degenerated into. Oh, and maybe some chance to dig in and and uplift a handful of ragged survivors here and there by a tech level or two. Interspersed with some tech treasure hunting, and maybe the PCs can find some land somewhere and build there own little steading (DnD in the OTU, hooray!).
<\insert ridiculous statements about TNE>

Of course, that's how it could be, not how it has to be.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
too internally stable,

That's strictly a function of how the GM handles the campaign.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
and PCs make no difference at all in the grand scheme of things.

I posted the example, in response to exactly the same claim by Thelor, that dispells this notion about the Golden Age completely.

You did read my example . . . right? (Not, of course, all twenty years of campaign logs, but rather the summary paragraphs on the main campaign page describing each major campaign?)

Originally posted by Malenfant:
TNE on the other hand makes the PCs much more important - they're on the front line of bringing civilisation to the wilds. The setting is so much smaller that they have a real chance of going up in the world and influencing the decisions of the RC. And everything that was once so familiar has now changed, and there's no guarantee that a given world in the wilds will be the same between one visit and the next. All of a sudden, the universe has become dynamic in a way that the 3I never was.

All of the above is strictly a function of GM and Campaign, not the setting.

As for dynamicism, 3I vs TNE, it can be argued, as I did above, that the TNE isn't dynamic at all. The scale of the problem is so large the PCs couldn't make a dent if they tried. Any civilization they brought to the wilds would be an infinitesimal drop in the proverbial bucket.

 

[Thelor]

>>Any civilization they brought to the wilds would be an infinitesimal drop in the proverbial bucket.
<<
But it is still theirs little insignificant drop.
They helped re-civilize that world. They are local heroes!

TNE starvikings campaign is not just about smash and grab.

Perhaps they will be the ones to meddle a settlement between the RC and the soleean empire.
Opening a trade alliance with alot of freetraders to make life more sour for the Merchantile guild.

Or they are the ones that make first contact with the Regency etc.


And whats so special with a small cultural quirk such as terran cats in the Glisten system?
Anyone that buys the most recent Scout survey update knows this fact.
Only the less clever people do not update their library programs. And this is what to me makes the 3I so incredibly dull.
Whereas in TNE everything is broken and needs fixing.
I like the feeling being pioneers. Bringing players up against almost impossible odds and going where no one has gone before!

In an imperial campaign I lose interest quickly. There is nothing new around the corner. It is only new for the PC's that haven't seen it first hand before.
But some scout or wossname has already a full detailed survery and demographics done of the world.

I really hope any 4th Imperium or similar in the coming TNE1248 book is small, unstable, with LOADS of enemies at its borders, and inside politics and intrigue making things even worse. Making it easy for a GM to choose on which area of space to locate the campaign.

I fail to see why the TNE problem is to large?
It is not only the RC that is trying to rebuild. There are loads of pocket empires doing the same.
And also the Regency.
Loads of bases to build to perhaps become a federation of sorts.

But it seems the way is to make a 4th imperium. I really hope that is what the stagnant Regency will be. And the rest of the universe will be its enemies. Planning to tear the rememberance of the ones that caused the crashdown to bits. Blow them out of history if you so please.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Thelor:
>>Any civilization they brought to the wilds would be an infinitesimal drop in the proverbial bucket.
<<
But it is still theirs little insignificant drop.
They helped re-civilize that world. They are local heroes!

Which is no different than adventuring in the Golden Age of the 3I.

Originally posted by Thelor:
Or they are the ones that make first contact with the Regency etc.

That would have to be across the very big and very black "wall". The implication of that stretch of space is that it's near-automatic death to enter. It would be a huge detour around it to get to the Regency.

Originally posted by Thelor:
And whats so special with a small cultural quirk such as terran cats in the Glisten system?
Anyone that buys the most recent Scout survey update knows this fact.

Library? Updates? The Scouts publish updates to libraries? Uh, just because there exists something called "Library Data" does not mean there are magical libaries/databases of data sitting around with associated groups going around updating them as a free service to all. I can't recall any Library Data entry that suggests it. (Ok, someone point out that I'm wrong . . .)


In any event, if such things existed, are you sure you can rely on them? After all, as stated they'd be maintained by ones who pretty much botched the Second Survey in the first place.

Originally posted by Thelor:
Only the less clever people do not update their library programs.

Where do these "library" "updates" come from? The 3I? I don't know, but I don't think so. Megacorporations? Maybe, but information is power, and they're not going to let such valuable information go cheap. A Sector Library update might go for millions, it would certainly cost huge sums to update. Maybe the cost could be cut down by only getting Sector Library Updates, but that would still be very expensive. And given computer sizes in Traveller, it would occupy a large building. Not something you'd carry around on your Model 1 or Model 2 (fib, bis, or otherwise) computer on a little 200 ton starship.

Just because the Scouts might publish updated astrographic data, knowing which altered orbit the local highport has been moved into is not the same as knowing not to ask after the health of the local portmasters wife and children, who were abducted and murdered five years before; or knowing that a law was passed against unauthorized grav vehicles flying withing ten miles of Startown, etc.

In David Brin's Uplift Milieu, the "Galactic Library" comes in various "editions", some more complete than others. And all of them very, very, very expensive. I view high accuracy massive databases such as these to be something that aren't necessarily in PC hands.

Take the internet itself, for an example. It can be quite difficult to find information at times.

Example: I was recently browsing through the latest developments in fusion power technology, specifically I was looking into how they intended to use the plant itself to produce electricity (the entire reason for creating the fusion plant in the first place). There were plenty of websites detailing the latest efforts, including lots of esoteric math and engineering numbers. Not one site that I found actually broke down and discussed how they actually planned on generating the electricity. Conventional steam powerd turbines and dynamos? Who knows . . . the websites didn't say.

The 3I is a far vaster sink of information than Earth today, and finding information in that sink could eat up massive amounts of computer time, and that's with good search tools.

Originally posted by Thelor:
And this is what to me makes the 3I so incredibly dull.

I find the TNE situation of apocolyptically blasted worlds with no meaningful future to be incredibly dull.

In a big sprawling SF universe, people are going to have written down things about the world around them. Eventually, by whatever means, if a PC gets access to it, they'll have that knowledge to. It was the revoluation that began with mass book printings and the invention of moveable type. Down through that history, to today on Earth, many people have written books, travel guides, how-to-its, catalogs of species, and a great deal of what was printed turned out to be dead wrong. I wonder how much of any publicly available OTU "library database" of info is going to contain similar useless, out of date (no matter what the external "update date" is), and inaccurate information. The Encyclopedia Britannica recently suffered from similar problems, with many articles being horribly out of date (sometimes decades).

Originally posted by Thelor:
Whereas in TNE everything is broken and needs fixing.

Yes, I noticed that . . . quite irritating, too.

Originally posted by Thelor:
I like the feeling being pioneers. Bringing

That pioneer feeling . . . by treking into the previously human inhabited blasted zones, which are still populated by Virus in its many hosts, on worlds with sky's glowing purple from radiation fields, and Erps and Narl Eps stalking in the forests of Tangler Trees.

Originally posted by Thelor:
players up against almost impossible odds and

Ok, I'll agree with that one.

Originally posted by Thelor:
going where no one has gone before!

Where no one has gone in the last 70-odd years. Not counting ships piloted by AI-sentient Virus, and that the regions are populated by the remants of the descendants of humans (and others) who've lived in the area of the last several thousand years.

Originally posted by Thelor:
In an imperial campaign I lose interest quickly.

That's what I was trying to say before, I'm sorry you ran in a campaign like that.

Originally posted by Thelor:
There is nothing new around the corner. It is only new for the PC's that haven't seen it first hand before.
But some scout or wossname has already a full detailed survery and demographics done of the world.

If seeing advance survey information ahead of time makes things dull, then how is that differnt from finding one burnt out world after another . . . in that case, I don't need advance information to know what's next, I just know they're all the same because they're all burnt-out low-tech virus-ridden pools of ignorance and intolerance.

Originally posted by Thelor:
I fail to see why the TNE problem is to large?

The problems facing the fictional inhabitants of the TNE milieu aren't too large. The TNE setting is one where you can have loads of fun doing everything and anything you want. All types of adventure, all levels of threat, against whomever you please and wherever the GM guides or gets guided to.

There is no difference in the 3I and TNE settings, only in how they're presented and run.