TL Expansion, or lack of...

[whartung]

Why is TL 14-15 not dominant in the Imperium?

Outside of conservative governments and societies, smaller populations, or corporate outposts, why hasn't the higher TL spread farther?

Why would the Imperial Navy not force at least the shipyards to use modern Tech Levels? Why are the merchants not pumping high tech goods into low tech economies? Heck, why aren't they pumping high tech industry into local economies so the stuff can be made local rather than shipped in.

We convinced a referee once to let us import a ships hold filled with solar powered scientific calculators on to a TL 5 world, and we made bank. (He shouldn't have, but that's a separate point).

If technology, for it's own sake, has value, why isn't that value being spread like wildfire? How long has TL-14 been around? Hundreds of years?

And why is Regina TL-12? Isn't Regina kind of important in a frontier sector known for enemy incursions? Are TL-14/15 TVs and Keurig Coffee makers just not that much better to have the population clamoring for higher tech consumer items?

There's no need to go from, say, TL 6 to 8 to 10 to 12 to 14, rather, you can jump straight up from 6 to 14 in 1 or 2 generations. Bye bye buggy whips, hello self flying grav cars.

I appreciate the Imperium can be a slow moving body. But really, why would the frontier naval bases and ship yards be anything but TL-15 by now.

So, just curious.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Funny you should mention that...

Since I am building my T⁵ ATU, I have been facing that exact dilemma. My response is go through my sector database and start modifying the TL and such of the Core Worlds who for sure should see a bump since they are are all on the right side of the minor rift that splits the empire.

So, I am in your corner, it does seem awful weird to have all those low tech worlds so close to high tech ones and no one is doing any technology transfers.

And why shouldn't your Ref allowed you to make a killing on scientific calculators to a TL-5 world? Seems alright to me, what's your issue with it? Especially since it is a prime example of the very complaint you have, where are all those high TL gadgets and infrastructure sales to low TL worlds? You think there would be bunches of them, but nope they just don't seem to happen.

 

[Timerover51]

Why is TL 14-15 not dominant in the Imperium?

Outside of conservative governments and societies, smaller populations, or corporate outposts, why hasn't the higher TL spread farther?

Why would the Imperial Navy not force at least the shipyards to use modern Tech Levels? Why are the merchants not pumping high tech goods into low tech economies? Heck, why aren't they pumping high tech industry into local economies so the stuff can be made local rather than shipped in.

We convinced a referee once to let us import a ships hold filled with solar powered scientific calculators on to a TL 5 world, and we made bank. (He shouldn't have, but that's a separate point).

If technology, for it's own sake, has value, why isn't that value being spread like wildfire? How long has TL-14 been around? Hundreds of years?

And why is Regina TL-12? Isn't Regina kind of important in a frontier sector known for enemy incursions? Are TL-14/15 TVs and Keurig Coffee makers just not that much better to have the population clamoring for higher tech consumer items?

There's no need to go from, say, TL 6 to 8 to 10 to 12 to 14, rather, you can jump straight up from 6 to 14 in 1 or 2 generations. Bye bye buggy whips, hello self flying grav cars.

I appreciate the Imperium can be a slow moving body. But really, why would the frontier naval bases and ship yards be anything but TL-15 by now.

So, just curious.

So change it in your Traveller universe.

 

[kilemall]

The answer is already all over our own world, and we don't even have interstellar distances and costs as barriers.

High tech spreads quickly through those nations able to support it, offer items in return that are of similar value, and those nations that cannot at least buy the tech, do not have it, or have small low cost HT items of personal use.

So we have third world nations with oxen as motive power for farming while jets fly overhead moving their upper crust out or tourists in.

So don't think of TL as isolated Red Zone contact situations, more like a measurement of first world/second world/third world economic states that can be supported by the productive activities and culture of the local economy, which shows what tech can be expected to be encountered commonly versus the occasional offworlder or noble import.

 

[simonh]

It comes down to what TL means, what it measures. My favourite explanation of this is in the Mongoose Traveller main rulebook, page 179.

The Technology Level measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability. Trade with fofworlders may bring in advanced technology; on average, a rich individual can afford technology two or more levels higher than the planetary averag. The government may also have access to higher-technology items. A planet’s technology may be one or more levels higher or lower in a particular field…

Bear in mind TL 12 is pretty advanced. As a baseline they can build J-3 drives and planty of other tech that's standard for much of the Imperium, just not the really expensive super-advanced stuff. They're Britain with a lagging-behind manufacturing base but a few high tech specialisms, to Glisten's Japan. With the 'wiggle room' of one or two TLs the above paragraph provides, they probably have local industries in a few economic sectors that meet TL 14 standard.

I think there are grey areas. Solar calculators are technological trinkets at higher TLs. Those are going to be viable commodities right down the technology tree regardless of the TL+/-2 rule of thumb. There are also some TL bands that are broader than others. The difference between TL 12 and TL 14 is marginal in most respects, while the difference between TL 3 and TL 5 is massive. I have a hard time imagining what industries a TL 3 baseline world might reasonably have that could operate at TL 5 standard. TL 3 infrastructure just isn't up to supporting TL 5 industries, though I suppose it might be viable using imported technologies in the same way that southern China bootstrapped it's manufacturing using imported tooling and manufacturing gear and really just provided local labour to assemble imported components. I doubt that would work in the Imperium though as cheap automated assembly should be dominant. TL 5 ordinary people have many mass produced consumer goods, even their own car, while ordinary people at TL 3 are lucky to own some nice cuttlery and pottery and only the wealthy might have their own horse (or equivalent). They really won't have all that much that's even worth trading for a solar power calculator, while well-off elites will be able to trade valuable raw materials in quantity and should really be able to afford basic goods from pretty much any TL IMHO, not just TL 7.

So yes, there should be oppoprtunities to trade high tech items to lower tech worlds, but the thing in that this is normal and established practice for most worlds with access to offworld trade, not something entirely novel.

Simon Hibbs

 

[whartung]

And why shouldn't your Ref allowed you to make a killing on scientific calculators to a TL-5 world? Seems alright to me, what's your issue with it? Especially since it is a prime example of the very complaint you have, where are all those high TL gadgets and infrastructure sales to low TL worlds? You think there would be bunches of them, but nope they just don't seem to happen.

Well, A) it was a Theocracy, the government could have shut us down hard before we even got off the ship. B) he let us hijack his "adventurer for hire smash and grab" adventure and derail it utterly. C) we made "munchkin" money on that adventure -- we leveraged our mustering out money (10, 20, 40K credits) and made millions of credits, "No, ref, we're not going to go back and risk our lives for 10K payment." D) why hadn't someone else flooded the market with solar powered scientific calculators?

Simply put, seems to me that a place is "TL5" for a reason, or better, there's no reason NOT to be TL 14+ unless there's something specifically holding you back.

 

[whartung]

The answer is already all over our own world, and we don't even have interstellar distances and costs as barriers.

High tech spreads quickly through those nations able to support it, offer items in return that are of similar value, and those nations that cannot at least buy the tech, do not have it, or have small low cost HT items of personal use.

So we have third world nations with oxen as motive power for farming while jets fly overhead moving their upper crust out or tourists in.

But you're also only talking about a few decades of exposure, not 100's of years.

You're also talking about a "3rd world" that is rapidly (30 years) racing up to 1st world. The "Asian Tigers" were pretty "backwater" not 40 years ago, and now they dominate in the USE of technology (i.e. they can manufacture top drawer tech, even if they can't quite create it out of whole cloth yet). And we have African nations going from "ox and cart" to wireless global networking, skipping the entire development period between those two extremes.

Most tech limitations here are economic. Some are cultural, most are economic. They simply can't afford "first world" goods. But China is changing that, introducing cheap manufactured goods (including heavy machinery) using proven designs to the poorer areas of the world. These areas may not be able to afford US goods, but they can afford Chinese ones, even if they're lower quality.

The larger worlds of the Imperium do not have the economic problems of our third world. These are "first world" systems, but the have not upgraded their infrastructure -- over hundreds of years. That's pretty darn complacent, they must not grow eager young people on these worlds.

And it still doesn't explain why the Navy deals with these worlds. Why they don't have a tech requirement to service their fleet. "You want our Naval Base, you'll tech up, or we'll simply contract with vendors who will tech up the ship operations". The fact that there is a Naval Base there should be enough draw for the vendors to move the tech in, and then have that tech leak out to the local population.

Again, we're talking HUNDREDS OF YEARS, not a "slow adoption" across imbalanced economies. Look what "we" managed to do with North America in "200 years".

It's also not like "Sorry, we don't have a CAT Scanner here, you'll have to go to the hospital in Big City, 50 miles away". As cheap as interstellar shipping is, it's not cheaper than a grav lifter from a licensed manufacturer on planet.

I see little reason to not have a "TL 15" star port on a "TL 12" world, tech'd to supply the fleet with imported machinery, and a transition team to train workers, eventually transitioned to local manufacture.

And simply, the TL lag shouldn't be that long. If a world wants to stick at TL 6 for cultural reasons, fine, but a TL 12 world should "have no fear" of technology or a modern lifestyle, and hard to imagine them not being eager to catch up.

Finally, I cite one more anecdote. A friend recently restored a late 50's Chevy Mailbu or Bel Air or some such thing. "Classic car". One of the components was a new motor. He didn't restore to the vintage original, it's basically a cosmetic restoration. The motor, is brand new from GM, with extra machined bits to make it fit in the car. It is, however, carbureted, rather than fuel injected. But it does have a electronic ignition. He could have got fuel injection, but chose not to. But he wasn't crazy enough to bypass electronic ignition.

So, that's a "TL-7" car with some "TL-8" components, but could have had "TL-9" components.

 

[JBRocky]

While I understand the reasoning for the different TL, I have always thought it needed some work. As an example Rhylanor is TL15 and within J3 there is a TL 3, 4, 5 and a TL 8 which has a Class A Starport a Naval Base and at the intersection of 3 Xpress Boat Route.

Now I do think using these can bring some fun to the game so not everything is the same. For instance the TL 3 has a Class E Starport and a Research Station there but I know I could work with that making something interesting. But with all of the combined I as a GM alter some of the TL's to be more uniform since one jump away from well Rhylanor needs to be more cosmopolitan.

 

[Selandia]

Well, lets see

I brought home that cute girl that is a TI secret scout, she look's around at my home, in a TL? Canada (we sell planes but I believe we lost our last refrigerators factory in eastern Canada, so what is our TL?) on a TL 8 third planet of Sol.

What does the TI scout see: I have a CD player, a cell phone, a portable computer, cable feed plasma TV, none of which made in Canada. The rest of my life is TL 2 items (bed, chair, table, chinaware) or TL 4 (stove, refrigerator, light bulbs, a fan, stainless steel cutlery) builts at optimum manufacturing TL for low cost low tech goods, somewhere between TL 4 and TL 6.

Of course the family toolbox (odd request from a girl, "show me your family tool box"... unles she thinks of something else...) it still has granpa's hammer, a TL 1.6 chunk of metal built at TL 3 late in the XIX century, and a wonderfull pre-electricity hand drill.

I reasure her that the cat is not a TL 1 pest control device but a TL 3 luxury item (or maybe TL 4, since when could the masses feed useless animals?). I want to hide the truth from her: it is a TL 5 therapeutic device, kind of the early model of a Councellor's console on her starship the only thing in your life to whom you could talk honestly.

She does not find bizare that I pay more for low tech food production (TL 2 free roaming chicken) than for TL 7-8 inexpensive protein from rubbery chicken. The regression to TL 3 pure linen of the bed sheets is a definitive improvement over the TL 6 polyester...

As for the TL1 activities thereafter... none of your business

have fun

Selandia

 

[Brian Smaller]

I was thinking the same thing Selandia. I am sitting at my desk in Wellington, New Zealand and I doubt there are three things here that are manufactured in my own country. That is how I see Traveller Tech Level variations. We sell milk, meat and tourism. In exchange we get computers, medicines and crappy TV shows.

 

[pendragonman]

I am in Selandia's camp as well.

I am of the belief that a world's TL is the TL that the local infrastructure can make or support locally. Doesn't mean there aren't higher tech goods available, but if you break it, you either pay a high priced technician to repair it with imported parts or import a new one yourself.

 

[JBRocky]

Oh I totally agree that the TL is what can be locally and high tech items are available if you want them.

Lets go back to the Rhylanor example with all the low TL worlds nearby and if you buy that high tech item how are you going to power that Computer buy gas for a car or charge a Air Raft? So the local establishment buys that TL12 surplus reactor for a power grid, or something to that extent. With such a high tech society nearby it will trickle down and raise the TL of nearby worlds. That TL 3,4 or 8 society will not stay that way for long.

 

[kilemall]

Well Whartung, in many respects the TL bands themselves are silly, in that you have incredible leaps in tech from 1 to 9, and then it's largely incremental increases in tech after that.

Similar issues with MANY backgrounds, Star Wars only has a few differences between tech of the movie time and 1000s of years earlier, the Foundation series has stagnant tech all over, etc. etc.

On the other hand many human societies were perfectly happy to reach a certain tech plateau, and not push farther, some for 100s of years.

The rapid globalization is largely due to massive drops in transport costs such that labor costs can profitably spread factory builds in those countries, and again sell products of value to be shipped overseas and therefore afford buying other things. Without the container ship, this would be happening FAR more slowly.

With 1000Cr a ton, adjusted for TL difference in 'standard' value, it will be VERY expensive for a TL3 local to even buy a comb from an interstellar shipment. Space itself is a barrier to rapid 'interstellarization'.

Another possibility is that these worlds once WERE fully integrated valuable places, but dropped off when the mines ran dry, a political disaster occurred, the plague hit, the water was poisoned by geological or industrial processes, etc. and these places then are more like industrial wastelands or near ghost towns with people hanging on just because they have no better idea or place to go.

Think Planet Detroit.

This is actually a BIG theme IMTU, as up to now in everyone's expansion the governments have been underwriting their colonies' funding and keeping everyone at a happy TL10 just like home (with the exception of intentional fringe areas like The Cloud.

But it's unsustainable as many of these places are not generating enough revenue to pay back the funding OR any loans, and they are about to get cut loose from subsidies.

So, a more natural market value of the world will kick in, with downgrades in technological lifestyles that are sustainable.

Want to consider what happens to financial markets when a world's TL drops 1? That is a MAJOR plot line, so actually I have that in play.

As for normal TL increases, I am postulating that happens on a 50 year cycle, I have a break due to my Great Plague/building of the Cities/Evac Earth part so getting to TL9 took 100 years.

If I were to go on with this setting through TL15 that would be 250 years in the future assuming that progress was uninterrupted, which seems unlikely. SOMETHING would happen to mess with the march of technology. And it would be very unlikely they could sustain TL15 throughout the whatever succeeds the TC.

 

[Condottiere]

A modern minded military will always push for innovations in operations and technology, especially when facing a near pear competitor, or worse, one who's advanced, because it's literally life or death.

This may have the trickle down effect.

There's also consumerist keeping up with the Jones's, and foreign investments, as well as off-shoring.

 

[simonh]

I see little reason to not have a "TL 15" star port on a "TL 12" world, tech'd to supply the fleet with imported machinery, and a transition team to train workers, eventually transitioned to local manufacture.

OK, but a TL 15 starport means almost everything in the starport is all TL 15. In most cases that's simply not practical or necessary. Bear in mind TL 12 still has gravitics, fusion power, jump drives, etc. They're not primitives, they have mostly the same stuff TL 15 worlds have, it's just not a sexy.

And simply, the TL lag shouldn't be that long. If a world wants to stick at TL 6 for cultural reasons, fine, but a TL 12 world should "have no fear" of technology or a modern lifestyle, and hard to imagine them not being eager to catch up.

I think they already have a modern lifestyle, by general Imperium standards. Imporvements in technology from TL 12 up is mainly incremental improvements of existing tech.

Finally, I cite one more anecdote. A friend recently restored a late 50's Chevy Mailbu or Bel Air or some such thing. "Classic car". One of the components was a new motor. He didn't restore to the vintage original, it's basically a cosmetic restoration. The motor, is brand new from GM, with extra machined bits to make it fit in the car. It is, however, carbureted, rather than fuel injected. But it does have a electronic ignition. He could have got fuel injection, but chose not to. But he wasn't crazy enough to bypass electronic ignition.

So, that's a "TL-7" car with some "TL-8" components, but could have had "TL-9" components.

I think this happens a lot. Per my previous post, there's a general rule of thumb in MGT, and I think it's a reasonable guideline generally, that there's TL+/-2 wiggle room on most worlds. So Maybe that TL 12 world has mainly locally produced grav vehicle chassis, but the grav modules on some vehciles and maybe the flight controll systems on others are imported TL 14 models. Conversely out in the preipheral regions a lot of agriculture is still based on ageing TL 10 infrastructure and equipment. It's still not exactly stone age though.

The Imperium has been around a long time sure, but how long has it had TL 15 tech? How long has it had to trickle down?

Simon Hibbs

 

[Theophilus]

Why TL3-8 within one jump of a high tech world?

Well, let's see, I'll need a mine for ore, smelter and refinery, to produce metals, Manufacturing for frames and bodies. Electronics and Computers, Grav Modules, what else? Oh yes silicates for glass (or transparent aluminum), etc. Just to manufacture one Grav Vehicle.

Would your local community invest in all the infrastructure just to manufacture a few hundred vehicles? Or would you import them from Japan?

Why are there more cell phones in Africa than America? America built it's infrastructure over centuries. Africa imported. Which has a higher Tech Level, America, Which has more High Tech, Africa.

The TL3 world has more iPads, Laptops, and Grav vehicles, but no manufacturing. Hence TL3.

 

[simonh]

The TL3 world has more iPads, Laptops, and Grav vehicles, but no manufacturing. Hence TL3.

That's not how Traveller TLs are descirbed as working though. It's the sophistication of the technological items that are commonly available and used, not the stuff that is locally manufactured. Otherwise a small advanced research base on an otherwise uninhabited planet, established using the latest gear by a TL 15 society, would get a rating of TL 2 or 3. They don't though, they get a TL rating of 15.

I think the way Traveller does this is the best way. The way you describe it, I don't think such a TL designation would be of any practical use in the game. It's not telling characters visiting a world anything they need to know. If the locals ride in TL 15 air rafts, wear TL 15 armoured space suits and are pointing TL 15 fuson guns at you, they are TL 15. If they're riding in a TL 12 air raft, wear TL 12 space suits, most of the have TL 12 weapons but the leader has a TL 13 weapon and the guy at the back has a TL 10 long range comms set on his back, they're probably TL 12.

Simon Hibbs

 

[kilemall]

Why TL3-8 within one jump of a high tech world?

Well, let's see, I'll need a mine for ore, smelter and refinery, to produce metals, Manufacturing for frames and bodies. Electronics and Computers, Grav Modules, what else? Oh yes silicates for glass (or transparent aluminum), etc. Just to manufacture one Grav Vehicle.

Would your local community invest in all the infrastructure just to manufacture a few hundred vehicles? Or would you import them from Japan?

Why are there more cell phones in Africa than America? America built it's infrastructure over centuries. Africa imported. Which has a higher Tech Level, America, Which has more High Tech, Africa.

The TL3 world has more iPads, Laptops, and Grav vehicles, but no manufacturing. Hence TL3.

I have it a little more nuanced, you make some TL, goods and/or services, that allow you to buy the other TL you don't make locally.

Plenty of first world nations that do not have chip fabs yet have no trouble exchanging for electronics. Plenty of fabs located in nations where the best transport most have is scooters and entire families to a room.

Total manufacturing capability should not be confused for ubiquity of TL or the degree of manufacturing to services or specialization.

 

[whartung]

The problem with a TL-12 star port is that it can not maintain a TL-15 starship. Do you need a TL-15 ship to deliver freight? No, but, a TL-15 ship offers benefits over a TL-12 ship, particularly if you're buying one of new manufacture, so ideally as the newer ships float out of the shipyards, the infrastructure to support those ships should rise to the occasion.

Also, if you owned a TL-12 ship before and are replacing it, you don't need to buy a TL-13, then a -14, in order to get a -15. You jump straight to the top of the heap.

Similarly a lower tech world that is in transition to a higher TL, they will advance as fast that infrastructure can be put in place to support the new TL, there's no need to linger in between. During development, TL-8 maybe depend on TL-7, but during implementation that's not the case at all. You don't need a TL-7 infrastructure to upgrade to TL-8. You need a TL-8 infrastructure, and you just start building it up out of whole cloth.

Of course, there's a dichotomy, notably at the starship level, where the lower TLs don't become cheaper. As TL advances, capability improves, but prices do not. An M-Drive for a TL-12 ship costs that same as an M-Drive for a TL-15 ship, at the same G rating. Vis a vis High Guard, the only thing that gets cheaper is Power Plants, solely because they get more efficient and become smaller.

Since TL-12 has been around for "hundreds of years", you'd think that the tech for a TL-12 M Drive and Fusion Power Plant would be beyond fully amortized and exclusive. You'd have a large experience base in the systems, commodity parts and expertise to maintain them, etc.

When I was a kid, I went with my Dad to Sears to get some tires. While we were there, he also got a new starter for his car, a '73 Monte Carlo, running the ubiquitous GM 350 V8. At the time, I was completely amazed the Sears would have such a thing as a starter for my Dad's car. You look around, at all the different cars on the street and they a part for HIS, specific car (not really understanding that eleventy billion cars had that exact same motor and could use that exact same starter).

Today, who knows how many companies, around the world, make a starter for a GM 350 V8. I know you can get one from any street corner auto part store.

Commodity parts for a commodity appliance, established tooling, mature production lines, skilled assemblers, now it's a race to the bottom in pricing based almost solely on raw material prices, or how good the health care plan the company offers it's employees.

So, anyway, just seems that the star port would be the nexus of TL introduction in order to support trade. And once it's introduced there, soon the parts are no longer imported, but made locally, and from there it just spreads.

TL-15 has been around for hundreds of years, it's not a new thing.

 

[kilemall]

The problem with a TL-12 star port is that it can not maintain a TL-15 starship. Do you need a TL-15 ship to deliver freight? No, but, a TL-15 ship offers benefits over a TL-12 ship, particularly if you're buying one of new manufacture, so ideally as the newer ships float out of the shipyards, the infrastructure to support those ships should rise to the occasion.

Also, if you owned a TL-12 ship before and are replacing it, you don't need to buy a TL-13, then a -14, in order to get a -15. You jump straight to the top of the heap.

Similarly a lower tech world that is in transition to a higher TL, they will advance as fast that infrastructure can be put in place to support the new TL, there's no need to linger in between. During development, TL-8 maybe depend on TL-7, but during implementation that's not the case at all. You don't need a TL-7 infrastructure to upgrade to TL-8. You need a TL-8 infrastructure, and you just start building it up out of whole cloth.

Of course, there's a dichotomy, notably at the starship level, where the lower TLs don't become cheaper. As TL advances, capability improves, but prices do not. An M-Drive for a TL-12 ship costs that same as an M-Drive for a TL-15 ship, at the same G rating. Vis a vis High Guard, the only thing that gets cheaper is Power Plants, solely because they get more efficient and become smaller.

Since TL-12 has been around for "hundreds of years", you'd think that the tech for a TL-12 M Drive and Fusion Power Plant would be beyond fully amortized and exclusive. You'd have a large experience base in the systems, commodity parts and expertise to maintain them, etc.

When I was a kid, I went with my Dad to Sears to get some tires. While we were there, he also got a new starter for his car, a '73 Monte Carlo, running the ubiquitous GM 350 V8. At the time, I was completely amazed the Sears would have such a thing as a starter for my Dad's car. You look around, at all the different cars on the street and they a part for HIS, specific car (not really understanding that eleventy billion cars had that exact same motor and could use that exact same starter).

Today, who knows how many companies, around the world, make a starter for a GM 350 V8. I know you can get one from any street corner auto part store.

Commodity parts for a commodity appliance, established tooling, mature production lines, skilled assemblers, now it's a race to the bottom in pricing based almost solely on raw material prices, or how good the health care plan the company offers it's employees.

So, anyway, just seems that the star port would be the nexus of TL introduction in order to support trade. And once it's introduced there, soon the parts are no longer imported, but made locally, and from there it just spreads.

TL-15 has been around for hundreds of years, it's not a new thing.

Gotcha covered here.

That's what the LBB2 drives are, standardized can do across every TL that can make them.

Not a big issue IMTU since there is just TL9-10 for jump and 7-10 for M-Drive, but a big push for cross tech level, standardized form factor, interfaces, input/outputs, etc., but for the Imperium maintaining interstellar trade, could be originally a governmental definition/initiative/spec, or a shipyard industry ISO-like standard.

Then, HG ships are more customized to take advantage of each TL's improvement, so better performance/weight ratio at a higher price and 'custom' parts that require the requisite TL (both ways- maybe the TL15 yard can't handle that 'primitive' TL11 HG drive, but could readily replace the TL9 design A drive on the Type S).

Incidentally, this would make the LBB2 drive ships more lucrative or at least a broader 'customer base' for parting out pirate captured starships.