Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In a broader sense, tech level could indicate an assured and continued access to goods manufactured at that level of sophistication, and a society that has integrated those sophisticated products at a macro and micro level.
TL Expansion, or lack of...
- Thread starter whartung
- Start date
Again in OV you'll see a major difference between a TL11 and a TL6 world - the lower the tech, the less "current Earth TL" gear the locals will have. Most stuff on a TL6 world, except again for imported electronics nd other thiungs which are easy to import, would be TL6. But some higher tech will exist as this will be a colony of a higher TL polity than an independent low-TL world. Also remember that in a small-ship setting such as OV, you can't economically import large quantities of bulky items, so these would have to be made locally, or at least fit the local TL which produces the spare parts. Most colonies are at TL7-9, so a lot of gear is manufactured at these TLs in the factories of the Core so that they'll fit locally-made spares.
I'm not really sure I get this. It sounds to me like this is a setting in which technological knowledge is ubiquitous, but some worlds have lower TL because they have more limited infrastructure. But I don't think that makes a lot of sense. At TL6 you have the ability to build silicon chip manufacturing facilities. Given that, why would you build one with TL 6 capabilities? If you have the materials science and can import the instrumentation to calibrate at TL 11 tolerances, why wouldn't you? I don't think the chain of technological dependencies work in such a way that, if you had TL 11 knowledge and materials science, that you'd build up local infrastructure at TL6 standard or below. There'd be no point, especially since a lot of lower tech gear is actually more resource intensive to build.
The extra gear you'd need to build a massive billion-dolar TL 6 silicon chip wafer fab at TL8 level instead could probably fit into a free trader cargo hold. Intel doesn't destroy their old chip fabs and build new ones every 2 years, they upgrade key components in the old ones. At some point it becomes economically worthwhile to build a new fab, but that has as much to do with manufacturing scale as it has technology.
I realise in a small ship universe there's a limited amount of gear you can import, but that just means you'd be very selective about it and import the key scientific and engineering instrumentation on which to build up the rest of your technology base. For a start, you'd import the highest tech 3D printers you could find, and use those to construct all the other instrumentation you'd need to engineer and calibrate the heavier stuff.
Simon Hibbs
I'd say that even a TL6 world uses TL10-11 tools, but only has a limited manufacturing infrastructure, so many things requiring major infrastructure are not possible to produce locally. There will be no TL6 factories on a "TL6" OV world, only small TL10-11 workshops - this ISN'T a major manufacturing world (yet), but a colony and its population would usually be quite low.
By the way in the UTR (23rd century) milieu of my Visions of Empire setting, I'm contemplating on much less technological variance; all Terran worlds will be TL11-13, or even TL13 straight, with the exception of smaller colonies where you can't get the most advanced gear manufactured locally. The same goes to the Reticulans. A bit like it workls in Mass Effect - almost everyone uses current-tech gear. Technological variance you'll get in the 27th century once the Empire has collapsed and many worlds have to be self-sufficient.
By the way in the UTR (23rd century) milieu of my Visions of Empire setting, I'm contemplating on much less technological variance; all Terran worlds will be TL11-13, or even TL13 straight, with the exception of smaller colonies where you can't get the most advanced gear manufactured locally. The same goes to the Reticulans. A bit like it workls in Mass Effect - almost everyone uses current-tech gear. Technological variance you'll get in the 27th century once the Empire has collapsed and many worlds have to be self-sufficient.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Think of the separate worlds like cities and towns on Earth.
Does every industrialized country have the ability to build silicon chip plants? Yes. Therefore every city and town in that country could build them as well.
Now, does every city and town in every country have its own chip plant? No. In fact, are there towns that are deliberately low tech? Yes.
That is the question to answer. Even with jump taking a week, timewise we can equate that the expansion of the use of the Iron Horse. New York to San Francisco in less than 2 weeks. Therefore it is not the time lag that creates the tech difference.
We know that we have some very high tech cities very near some very low tech ones. Mainly as islands of peace amidst the bustle of industry. So why doesn't every town produce every high tech item they need?
Because trade is cheaper per unit. Because the locals don't want the noise and pollution. Because they prefer a different lifestyle. Even perhaps that their religion mandates a simpler life (I'm looking at you, Amish).
My point is just because you can produce it locally doesn't mean you want to. Further, just because you don't produce it locally doesn't mean you don't have access to the tech, nor does it mean that high tech items of common use (communicators, vid/trivid, etc) are significantly more expensive.
Standard shipping rate is KCr 1 per dton. How many Iphone6 fit in a dton? Does that mean that each one will be hundreds of credits more for shipping or more like a single credit?
Inside the Imperial TL Standard is TL 15. Doesn't mean every world has to be TL 15 to support that standard.
Why not? You'd just have that many more of the small ships. Unless it's not just a small-ship setting but a small-ship-and-not-nearly-enough-of-them setting. Otherwise, if the colony or outpost can afford to buy bulky items, someone will transport those bulky items.
But what about outposts? They don't manufacture anything, everything they use is imported and paid for by whoever is responsible for the outposts. Wouldn't they have a TL of 0 by your definition? And wouldn't it be more useful to know what tech level their equipment is?
Hans
I don't get it. Where does the TL6 stuff come from if it's not manufactured locally?
Hans
My suggestion
Cost of manufacturing + cost of transportation+ cost of sales + profit= sales price
that is, with some détails ( wana write a book about all sub components of price?)
Cost of manufacturing at MW(manufacturing world) + cost of transportation between MW and CW (consumer world) + (contribution to overhead + valiable sales cost)+ profit = sales price.
therefore
Sale price - cost of sale- profit =cost of manufacturing + cost of transportation.
given cost of sale an price of sale that are indiferent to MW
if
Manufacturing cost at Alpha > Manufacturing cost at MW Beta + transportation between MW Beta and CW A
Then
MW of TL 6 goods sold on CW Alpha is MW Beta because profit are higher
This is made possible because:
higher TL may translate in a more efficient production of lower TL goods (and lower price given otherwise constant factors).
Availability of raw material, qualifications of Manpower, price of Manpower, cost of capital., régulations, trade practices....are some of the many factors at work.
Rethe TL 8 may swamp a TL 6 water world like Roup with manufactured goods, while Roup is happy to sell fish canned at TL 6 to Rethe, a desert world where pisceculture is costly.
On the other hand, the closer waterworld of Moughas, TL B, will gladly purchase anything at TL 8 of below from Rethe because Moughas pop 5 means no local market to justify local mass production of consumer goods and no manpower base to have a diversified mass manufacturing for other market. I read its Civil service bureaucracy, small pop and TL B as a Fishermen's Coop that would use capital intensive processes rather than labour intensive ones in a specialized export production. It has the know-how and access to parts to sustain a TL B based (based, that is: that the world is what it isr because it has TL B available) society.
By the Way, both Moughas and Roup would survive at TL 4. It would means a major socio-economic revolution on Moughas, becoming kind of a pocket Roup. The TL B force a different interpretation of the world as the current infra structural TL.
Have fun
Selandia
I seem to have fallen into arguing two opposite sides at once. To clarify: While I do think that some worlds, mostly outposts, import most of their everyday goods from a mother world, I also think that most populations manufacture most of their everyday goods themselves rather than import them. If they did import their everyday goods, the local TL would (or rather, should) be the TL of the imports rather than the local manufacturing capability. A TL 6 world can't be importing TL12 goods in bulk, because it wouldn't be able to afford paying for all its everyday goods in TL12 prices.
Furthermore, if worlds routinely imported everyday goods, interstellar traffic would be orders of magnitude higher than FT states and CT implies. I believe that interstellar trade is mostly in luxury goods, not everyday goods or even comforts. Not that there won't be some trade in raw materials and everyday goods (as the tramp trade tables show); just not in massive amounts.
In my opinion, Roup may export fish to Rethe, but as luxuries for Rethe's elite, not as fish paste for general consumption.
Hans
Furthermore, if worlds routinely imported everyday goods, interstellar traffic would be orders of magnitude higher than FT states and CT implies. I believe that interstellar trade is mostly in luxury goods, not everyday goods or even comforts. Not that there won't be some trade in raw materials and everyday goods (as the tramp trade tables show); just not in massive amounts.
In my opinion, Roup may export fish to Rethe, but as luxuries for Rethe's elite, not as fish paste for general consumption.
Hans
Well, to that point how do we know there aren't HG-sized container ships chucking 50,000 ton cargo runs around?
The players end up picking up 'the scraps' of small shipment sizes and working small highly profitable items for speculation, but the big dogs have the big megacorps contracts for shipment in bulk and lock in prices the free trader under onerous financing cannot match.
The other way to go with this is assume the luxury market, plus a brisk trade in machining and factory processing tailored to each planet's unique situation re: atmo density, makeup, raw materials available, local markets in-system and one jump away, etc.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
If I recall correctly, the origins of the thread was about a small ship universe. So, say max 10 kiloton boats. I could be misremembering however.
A) valid opiniion, while its Truthfullness in any give TU is relative to price offered (Dumping, amongst other things...) and price demanded (subsidized foodstuff, a great classic) including (subsidized) transport and non monetary impositions.
B) as to BCS vs ACS shipping, even the luxury market justify BCS merchantship... and yes Pandragonman... may be another thread should be started...and I am going to do it.
have fun
Selandia
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
If you look in the back of the original CT SM supplement there is an interesting description of what TL represents. If I get the time I'll type up the relevant bits - cut'n paste is tricky from the pdf because of the table right next to the prose.
The detail is that while true at the micro level ("towns"), it doesn't scale to a planetary level. And it doesn't scale across generations.
Planets (in general) are big enough that you don't have to turn the entirety of them in to suburban neighborhoods or nature preserves.
Consider LOUZY, SM 1609, D422A88-8.
TL8, 10B people. Those poor people are trapped. Small planet, 20% water, crowded, heavy industry, polluted air. Sounds like India. Doesn't even have a rigid government, I guess the people just like it this way.
Shame that they're way off the beaten path.
Save for that EFATE is right next door. TL-13, 8B people.
See, I look at LOUZY and see an untapped market. You'd think someone in those 10B people would like to have a fusion power plant, or an air raft. You'd think there would be emigrant market for travel.
Or, they're simply stubborn culturally. Taking "Not invented here" to a new high. Excited they've mastered the complexities of the automatic transmission. Waiting to see how the TRS-80 is going to empower their society. Always peering inward, not outward. They'd have to be outright hostile to external traders. "Get off my star port. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again."
But, it's just hard to fathom. Societal good is a powerful force. CHEAP energy is a VERY powerful force. Cheap energy is a societal multiplier. Cheap, clean, energy even more so.
And, again, it's not that these places can't exist. But how do they survive 100's of years of pressure.
There is very little isolation any more. You actually need high tech to remain isolated (vs, what, constant aerial surveillance to shoot down rogue traders?), and you need to maintain that stubbornness to remain isolated for a very long time.
Isolation is the only way to control change, since communication brings the new ideas in to the most rigid of cultures.
No doubt some of them do. The ones that can afford fusion power plants. But evidently most of the population has to make do with locally produced stuff.
And it's not really surprising that they do. See, when an Efatan earns 18,000 Efatan credits (worth 14,400 Imperial credits), a Louzian earns 8,000 Louzian credits (worth 1,200 Imperial credits). So effectively a fusion power plant from Efate costs 12 times as much (in terms of purchasing power) on Louzy.
(Numbers taken from Striker Book 2, p. 38-39.)
Hans
Seconded.
And speaking of, timerover, only Gov D has that DM -2 for its TL roll. Governments C (Charismatic Oligarchy) and E (Religious Autocracy) both have "religious" as possible leaders (either as a group or individual) and they don't get a negative TL DM, so not all theocracies are dumped on in the OTU. Just evil ones, the dictatorships, which honestly means that Gov B (Non-Charismatic Dictatorships) should have a negative TL DM as well. I'll give the Gov A (Charismatic Dictatorship) a pass on the assumtion that they hold power more through their charisma/propaganda than by keeping the TL restricted. Also might be smart enough to be quietly using cyberwar fare to hush up the rebels (I would. "Love me, love my generosity, use my free Internet...don't mind the secret police monitors, they're there to keep you safe!")
I agree with this very much and I think that last is the key to Religous Dictatorships (Gov D) having a TL DM -2.
And speaking of, timerover, only Gov D has that DM -2 for its TL roll. Governments C (Charismatic Oligarchy) and E (Religious Autocracy) both have "religious" as possible leaders (either as a group or individual) and they don't get a negative TL DM, so not all theocracies are dumped on in the OTU. Just evil ones, the dictatorships, which honestly means that Gov B (Non-Charismatic Dictatorships) should have a negative TL DM as well. I'll give the Gov A (Charismatic Dictatorship) a pass on the assumtion that they hold power more through their charisma/propaganda than by keeping the TL restricted. Also might be smart enough to be quietly using cyberwar fare to hush up the rebels (I would. "Love me, love my generosity, use my free Internet...don't mind the secret police monitors, they're there to keep you safe!")
I like your post very much. It was thoughtful and thought provoking. I especially liked how you reminded us all of time. After all, those UWPs are just snapshots in time.
Thanks for making that post.
All the more reason for Wealthy Entrepreneur to bring infrastructure local and monopolize the market, or for the State to make capital investments to import such infrastructure. Why pay 12x when you can pay 1x plus 12x for [Raw Material That Must Be Imported]. You think the Internet is empowering, wait until you can tap in to the ubiquitous Fusion Power available in the Imperium.
Import a fusion power plant, import Suitable Machine Tools. Use it to make a Fusion Power Plant and Tool Factory. Soon, power is coming from a hose in the ocean, the local lake, rain in a cistern, or trucked in in a tank rather than the costly extraction and transportation of carbon based power. (Oh, and "free" clean water +1)
Few power plants, some Battery Licenses to make some nice, local batteries, from local mined resources. TL8 can provide the wire. Ubiquitous, cheap, portable power. Everything else can be imported on USB fobs and taught to the population. "Look -- free books on Algebra, Calculus, Starship Making, Gravitics, and Jump Physics!" "How will we read the USB Fobs?" "A crewmen on the last trader liked my Sister, I got a Fob projector -- we'll have classes at the central Auditorium that holds 1000 people. We'll just sit and read through them and write stuff down. General, I need 1000 of your men that can read and write."
Also TL8 Louzian [Precious Metal/Rare Earth/Valuable Raw Material Commodity] is worth the same as TL13 [Commodity], it's just "12 times cheaper" to extract on Louzy.
Evidently there are reasons why this doesn't work. Remember, this is not a logical exercise in figuring out how things would really be; it's a handwaving exercise in explaining why things are as they are.
Using imported labor to run and maintain the factory. The only thing that's cheaper on Louzy is the labor, and you can't maintain a TL13 factory with TL8 knowledge. So the batteries are still going to be 12 times more expensive than the local ones. It would be even easier to manufacture the batteries on Efate and import them to Louzy.
Access to the knowledge is not restricted by the lack of electronic devices. TL8 can provide perfectly good electronic reading devices, and at lower tech levels there's always books. Whatever keeps a world at less than TL15 is not lack of access to textbooks.
12 times less income is 12 times less income. Selling cheap raw materials still isn't going to pay for very many TL13 end products.
Hans
The TL +/-2 wiggle room provides useful flexibility for a place like Louzy. We can happily assume that they can afford to import some surplus high tech goods from Effate, but that in some other respects they are lacking compared to the TL 8 baseline. "Hey Louzy, this is Effate. We recently imported a new TL 15 (+2 to local TL) municipal fusion reactor from Glisten and have this old TL 10 (-2 to local TL) version spare. What do you bid?"
We don't have to assume that every item across all of Effate is uniformly TL 13 and that every item uniformly across all of Louzy is TL 8. Clearly in a situation like this, that would be absurd. Both will have some legacy tech hanging around, mostly current-ish stuff, and a few higher tech items that make economic sense to splash out on.
Simon Hibbs
We don't have to assume that every item across all of Effate is uniformly TL 13 and that every item uniformly across all of Louzy is TL 8. Clearly in a situation like this, that would be absurd. Both will have some legacy tech hanging around, mostly current-ish stuff, and a few higher tech items that make economic sense to splash out on.
Simon Hibbs
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