Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In a broader sense, tech level could indicate an assured and continued access to goods manufactured at that level of sophistication, and a society that has integrated those sophisticated products at a macro and micro level.
Again in OV you'll see a major difference between a TL11 and a TL6 world - the lower the tech, the less "current Earth TL" gear the locals will have. Most stuff on a TL6 world, except again for imported electronics nd other thiungs which are easy to import, would be TL6. But some higher tech will exist as this will be a colony of a higher TL polity than an independent low-TL world. Also remember that in a small-ship setting such as OV, you can't economically import large quantities of bulky items, so these would have to be made locally, or at least fit the local TL which produces the spare parts. Most colonies are at TL7-9, so a lot of gear is manufactured at these TLs in the factories of the Core so that they'll fit locally-made spares.That's also the one the rules propound. Though in practice there are scores of canonical worlds in the OTU where it's not actually the case (basically any outpost, for example).
The problem I've always had with that definition is that it's pretty useless for my purposes (refereeing and world-building). When I run an adventure on a world, I'm not really interested in whether the locals can make submachine guns or if they import them. What I need to know is if they have them or not. So the definition I use IMTU (and most Traveller writers I know of in practice use for the OTU) is that TL shows what level of technology a significant majority of the population uses. It doesn't matter (much) if they manufacture the stuff locally or if they dig diamonds out of the ground with TL1 picks and shovels and buy everything they use from the next world over. What's important is what kind of weapons the locals tote around and if a visiting PC can get his broken gizmo repaired there or not.
But note that just because most of the population use a given level of technology doesn't mean that I don't allow for governments and rich people to import higher tech stuff. Just because the PCs can't rent a grav vehicle to go gallivanting around in doesn't mean they can't borrow one from the local squire. But that turns it from the routine transaction it would be on a TL12 world to a roleplaying incident on a TL6 world.
Hans
Again in OV you'll see a major difference between a TL11 and a TL6 world - the lower the tech, the less "current Earth TL" gear the locals will have. Most stuff on a TL6 world, except again for imported electronics nd other thiungs which are easy to import, would be TL6. But some higher tech will exist as this will be a colony of a higher TL polity than an independent low-TL world. Also remember that in a small-ship setting such as OV, you can't economically import large quantities of bulky items, so these would have to be made locally, or at least fit the local TL which produces the spare parts. Most colonies are at TL7-9, so a lot of gear is manufactured at these TLs in the factories of the Core so that they'll fit locally-made spares.
I'm not really sure I get this. It sounds to me like this is a setting in which technological knowledge is ubiquitous, but some worlds have lower TL because they have more limited infrastructure. But I don't think that makes a lot of sense. At TL6 you have the ability to build silicon chip manufacturing facilities. Given that, why would you build one with TL 6 capabilities? If you have the materials science and can import the instrumentation to calibrate at TL 11 tolerances, why wouldn't you? I don't think the chain of technological dependencies work in such a way that, if you had TL 11 knowledge and materials science, that you'd build up local infrastructure at TL6 standard or below. There'd be no point, especially since a lot of lower tech gear is actually more resource intensive to build.
The extra gear you'd need to build a massive billion-dolar TL 6 silicon chip wafer fab at TL8 level instead could probably fit into a free trader cargo hold. Intel doesn't destroy their old chip fabs and build new ones every 2 years, they upgrade key components in the old ones. At some point it becomes economically worthwhile to build a new fab, but that has as much to do with manufacturing scale as it has technology.
I realise in a small ship universe there's a limited amount of gear you can import, but that just means you'd be very selective about it and import the key scientific and engineering instrumentation on which to build up the rest of your technology base. For a start, you'd import the highest tech 3D printers you could find, and use those to construct all the other instrumentation you'd need to engineer and calibrate the heavier stuff.
Simon Hibbs
Why not? You'd just have that many more of the small ships. Unless it's not just a small-ship setting but a small-ship-and-not-nearly-enough-of-them setting. Otherwise, if the colony or outpost can afford to buy bulky items, someone will transport those bulky items.Also remember that in a small-ship setting such as OV, you can't economically import large quantities of bulky items...
But what about outposts? They don't manufacture anything, everything they use is imported and paid for by whoever is responsible for the outposts. Wouldn't they have a TL of 0 by your definition? And wouldn't it be more useful to know what tech level their equipment is?...so these would have to be made locally, or at least fit the local TL which produces the spare parts. Most colonies are at TL7-9, so a lot of gear is manufactured at these TLs in the factories of the Core so that they'll fit locally-made spares.
I don't get it. Where does the TL6 stuff come from if it's not manufactured locally?I'd say that even a TL6 world uses TL10-11 tools, but only has a limited manufacturing infrastructure, so many things requiring major infrastructure are not possible to produce locally. There will be no TL6 factories on a "TL6" OV world, only small TL10-11 workshops - this ISN'T a major manufacturing world (yet), but a colony and its population would usually be quite low.
I don't get it. Where does the TL6 stuff come from if it's not manufactured locally?
Hans
I seem to have fallen into arguing two opposite sides at once. To clarify: While I do think that some worlds, mostly outposts, import most of their everyday goods from a mother world, I also think that most populations manufacture most of their everyday goods themselves rather than import them. If they did import their everyday goods, the local TL would (or rather, should) be the TL of the imports rather than the local manufacturing capability. A TL 6 world can't be importing TL12 goods in bulk, because it wouldn't be able to afford paying for all its everyday goods in TL12 prices.
Furthermore, if worlds routinely imported everyday goods, interstellar traffic would be orders of magnitude higher than FT states and CT implies. I believe that interstellar trade is mostly in luxury goods, not everyday goods or even comforts. Not that there won't be some trade in raw materials and everyday goods (as the tramp trade tables show); just not in massive amounts.
In my opinion, Roup may export fish to Rethe, but as luxuries for Rethe's elite, not as fish paste for general consumption.
Hans
Well, to that point how do we know there aren't HG-sized container ships chucking 50,000 ton cargo runs around?
The players end up picking up 'the scraps' of small shipment sizes and working small highly profitable items for speculation, but the big dogs have the big megacorps contracts for shipment in bulk and lock in prices the free trader under onerous financing cannot match.
The other way to go with this is assume the luxury market, plus a brisk trade in machining and factory processing tailored to each planet's unique situation re: atmo density, makeup, raw materials available, local markets in-system and one jump away, etc.
In my opinion, Roup may export fish to Rethe, but as luxuries for Rethe's elite, not as fish paste for general consumption.
Hans
Think of the separate worlds like cities and towns on Earth.
Does every industrialized country have the ability to build silicon chip plants? Yes. Therefore every city and town in that country could build them as well.
Now, does every city and town in every country have its own chip plant? No. In fact, are there towns that are deliberately low tech? Yes.
No doubt some of them do. The ones that can afford fusion power plants. But evidently most of the population has to make do with locally produced stuff.See, I look at LOUZY and see an untapped market. You'd think someone in those 10B people would like to have a fusion power plant, or an air raft. You'd think there would be emigrant market for travel.
I agree with this very much and I think that last is the key to Religous Dictatorships (Gov D) having a TL DM -2.The detail is that while true at the micro level ("towns"), it doesn't scale to a planetary level. And it doesn't scale across generations.
Planets (in general) are big enough that you don't have to turn the entirety of them in to suburban neighborhoods or nature preserves.
Consider LOUZY, SM 1609, D422A88-8.
TL8, 10B people. Those poor people are trapped. Small planet, 20% water, crowded, heavy industry, polluted air. Sounds like India. Doesn't even have a rigid government, I guess the people just like it this way.
Shame that they're way off the beaten path.
Save for that EFATE is right next door. TL-13, 8B people.
See, I look at LOUZY and see an untapped market. You'd think someone in those 10B people would like to have a fusion power plant, or an air raft. You'd think there would be emigrant market for travel.
Or, they're simply stubborn culturally. Taking "Not invented here" to a new high. Excited they've mastered the complexities of the automatic transmission. Waiting to see how the TRS-80 is going to empower their society. Always peering inward, not outward. They'd have to be outright hostile to external traders. "Get off my star port. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again."
But, it's just hard to fathom. Societal good is a powerful force. CHEAP energy is a VERY powerful force. Cheap energy is a societal multiplier. Cheap, clean, energy even more so.
And, again, it's not that these places can't exist. But how do they survive 100's of years of pressure.
There is very little isolation any more. You actually need high tech to remain isolated (vs, what, constant aerial surveillance to shoot down rogue traders?), and you need to maintain that stubbornness to remain isolated for a very long time.
Isolation is the only way to control change, since communication brings the new ideas in to the most rigid of cultures.
The detail is ...
Isolation is the only way to control change, since communication brings the new ideas in to the most rigid of cultures.
No doubt some of them do. The ones that can afford fusion power plants. But evidently most of the population has to make do with locally produced stuff.
And it's not really surprising that they do. See, when an Efatan earns 18,000 Efatan credits (worth 14,400 Imperial credits), a Louzian earns 8,000 Louzian credits (worth 1,200 Imperial credits). So effectively a fusion power plant from Efate costs 12 times as much (in terms of purchasing power) on Louzy.
(Numbers taken from Striker Book 2, p. 38-39.)
Evidently there are reasons why this doesn't work. Remember, this is not a logical exercise in figuring out how things would really be; it's a handwaving exercise in explaining why things are as they are.All the more reason for Wealthy Entrepreneur to bring infrastructure local and monopolize the market, or for the State to make capital investments to import such infrastructure. Why pay 12x when you can pay 1x plus 12x for [Raw Material That Must Be Imported]. You think the Internet is empowering, wait until you can tap in to the ubiquitous Fusion Power available in the Imperium.
Using imported labor to run and maintain the factory. The only thing that's cheaper on Louzy is the labor, and you can't maintain a TL13 factory with TL8 knowledge. So the batteries are still going to be 12 times more expensive than the local ones. It would be even easier to manufacture the batteries on Efate and import them to Louzy.Import a fusion power plant, import Suitable Machine Tools. Use it to make a Fusion Power Plant and Tool Factory. Soon, power is coming from a hose in the ocean, the local lake, rain in a cistern, or trucked in in a tank rather than the costly extraction and transportation of carbon based power. (Oh, and "free" clean water +1)
Few power plants, some Battery Licenses to make some nice, local batteries, from local mined resources.
Access to the knowledge is not restricted by the lack of electronic devices. TL8 can provide perfectly good electronic reading devices, and at lower tech levels there's always books. Whatever keeps a world at less than TL15 is not lack of access to textbooks.TL8 can provide the wire. Ubiquitous, cheap, portable power. Everything else can be imported on USB fobs and taught to the population. "Look -- free books on Algebra, Calculus, Starship Making, Gravitics, and Jump Physics!" "How will we read the USB Fobs?" "A crewmen on the last trader liked my Sister, I got a Fob projector -- we'll have classes at the central Auditorium that holds 1000 people. We'll just sit and read through them and write stuff down. General, I need 1000 of your men that can read and write."
12 times less income is 12 times less income. Selling cheap raw materials still isn't going to pay for very many TL13 end products.Also TL8 Louzian [Precious Metal/Rare Earth/Valuable Raw Material Commodity] is worth the same as TL13 [Commodity], it's just "12 times cheaper" to extract on Louzy.