Timerover51
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I am getting very tired of Theocracies being continually characterized as anti-technology.
TL Expansion, or lack of...
- Thread starter whartung
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I am getting very tired of Theocracies being continually characterized as anti-technology.
Exactly, higher tech worlds can still make lower tech parts if they need to. MGT has specific rules for this. Building ships with some higher tech components that the local world can supply isn't a problem, they're just imported, so standard ships built using generic components have an average TL of say 12 but are actually a mixture of parts from various TLs, and can be built (and maintained) at any Class A starport regardless of world TL. If you want to use High Guard and take advantage of the specific rules on custom components built at specific TLs then you can still do that. This explains why TL isn't a major issue in classic Book 2 ship design and the rules presented in the Mongoose core rulebook.
whatrung said:
I really don't follow this. Our world today may be notionally TL 7/8 but it still has plenty of infrastructure that goes back to TL 1. There are plenty of foot trails out there in the countryside, People still fish using hand-thrown nets, not all bows in use in the world are super-modern compounds with pulleys and stuff. If you go to any third world country, their modern trucks and machinery are often repaired using replacement parts hand made by blacksmiths. The real world is a complex and messy place, and that's how I like my Traveller universe. If you had to have TL-appropriate infrastructure to use latest TL gear, no modern technology whatsoever would be functional in Somalia, but they use modern vehicles, radios, computers, etc with no problems. There are edge cases sure, modern mobile phones rely on modern mobile networks to function, but they're a single integrated technology. There are plenty of remote places in Africa that have fully functioning mobile networks but the general level of infrastructure is way below Earth standard. You can use Electricity generated using a TL 5 generator to power your TL 10 computer, no problem. A TL 7 train should run fine on TL 4 rails of the correct gaugue.
Any item must be manufacturable and operable using previous TL facilities or it could never be made or manufactured in the first place. In fact tech levels themselves are purely made-up categories for convenience. There's no measuring device you can use to read off the tech level of an object alongside it's mass and volume. In practice tech levels blur into each other. They're not discrete quantum states.
Simon Hibbs
The roots of that particular meme are deep, and discussing them would violate board rules on RL topics. FWIW, I share your fatigue with the meme.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am well aware that it is not allowable to discuss the subject. What I find most irritating is that Theocracy-bashing is acceptable while any further discussion of the subject is not.
That theocracies are anti-tech is only present in one ruleset: MGT. And that's due to the minimum law level for a theocracy being 8 (13-5=8), which in MGT, is the highest law level that does not outlaw technology in civilian hands. There's also the DM-2 on TL from being a theocracy... but that doesn't preclude them from being as high as TL 17 - remembering that TL defines what is commonly available on world... but MGT has the additional restrictions in the LL column which makes the potentially TL11+ tech non-sensical.
As for theocracy bashing - it's not allowed, either, past the very most basic levels that any mention of religion is tolerated.
Religion is fair game in the moot's Political Pulpit.
No one is interested in foblynks, the local currency. Exchange rate with Imperial credits is about 100:1, and that's if you can find someone willing to exchange them. Local exports are very limited, and the foreign currency that the society gets for those exports are earmarked for military stuff and luxuries for the elite. You might be able to sell a handful of solar-powered hand calculators to the elite for actual CrImps, but otherwise you'll be selling them for a couple of month's local pay in foblynks. Good luck finding customers at those prices and that goes double for finding a bank that will accept them -- at a really bad rate of exchange, of course.
Hans
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, definition of "Theocracy"
From Classic Traveller, Book 3, page 11.
Technology roll modifier of -2, the only government with a NEGATIVE Technology Roll Modifier.
From Starter Traveller, page 15.
Technology roll modifier of -2, the only government with a NEGATIVE Technology Roll Modifier.
From Traveller 5.0.9, page 409.
Government Type D has a Technology Roll modifier of -2, again the only government type to have a NEGATIVE Technology Roll Modifier.
As the government tables in all three editions have both Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictators, Religion is being specifically singled out. Given the way the Law Level roll is structured, the lowest possible Law Level is 8 for all three editions.
See that the theocracy represented in Asimov's Fundation, where the tech is managed by religious leaders, could easily fall under the Feudal Tecnocracy definition too (so its TL modifier would be +1, instead of -2).
Not all goverment clases are so rigid...
Not all goverment clases are so rigid...
Adeptus Mechanicus in Wharhammer 40K, a.k.a. the Cult Mechanicus, where God is the Machine Spirit inherent in any machine. Acquiring knowledge is of great interest.
Corporate world, if a Church own the corporation?
Comunism (What is called primitive comunism rather than marxism based communism) when founded on religious beliefs, lets not mention the RW exemple, very fond of high tech.
have fun
Selandia
Corporate world, if a Church own the corporation?
Comunism (What is called primitive comunism rather than marxism based communism) when founded on religious beliefs, lets not mention the RW exemple, very fond of high tech.
have fun
Selandia
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
A top down theocracy may fear sociopolitical instability if technological change isn't controlled, possibly permitted to slowly advance over human generations, rather than at Moore's pace, so that the economy can adjust to the new innovations and opportunities.
Most observers just can't perceive the glacial change.
Most observers just can't perceive the glacial change.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Stripped of the verbiage, Theocracy in anti-technology change, and therefore is bad. That is the only form of government that views technology that way. All others have no problems with technology change.
But not all religions must be like this.
In MT:V&A, page 27, two opposite examples are egiven amont the Sanctaterrists and the Apostles if Clarke's Law. While a theocracy ruled by Sanctaterrists would certainly deserve the -2 to TL, one ruled by the Apostles of Clarke's Law would probably deserve a positive modifier (and again, would probably be seen as a Feudal Technocracy more tan as a Theocracy.
In MT:V&A, page 27, two opposite examples are egiven amont the Sanctaterrists and the Apostles if Clarke's Law. While a theocracy ruled by Sanctaterrists would certainly deserve the -2 to TL, one ruled by the Apostles of Clarke's Law would probably deserve a positive modifier (and again, would probably be seen as a Feudal Technocracy more tan as a Theocracy.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Theological institutions could be the guardians of technology, during and immediately after some apocalyptic event, or see control of it as one of their power bases.
Cost, and I suspect, perceived value as well.
Do you really need a Tech 15 item, when a Tech 10 - 14 one will do?
Sure, that Tech 15 item looks great, but look at the cost.
I'll stick with my older model, which might just turn out to be more robust and utilitarian, while that gleaming Tech 15 one may break, or need servicing a few months from now.
Do you really need a Tech 15 item, when a Tech 10 - 14 one will do?
Sure, that Tech 15 item looks great, but look at the cost.
I'll stick with my older model, which might just turn out to be more robust and utilitarian, while that gleaming Tech 15 one may break, or need servicing a few months from now.
Then again, my TL 15 version of your TL 10 item may be sturdier, more capable and able to run longer with less power. *shrug*
And, have a soundtrack.
This is important especially with weapon systems.
More advanced TL weapon systems dynamically create soundtracks based on battle events and can even execute foreshadowing subthemes woven in based on Predict programs.
Damn, I want those on my ship now.
Unfortunately for that explanation, higher-tech items, or rather, the same quality of items made with more advanced manufacturing processes, tend to be cheaper.
Hans
Depends on univrese.
In my Outer Veil universe, TL represents local production capabilities. Frontier colonies naturally tend to have much lower TLs than well-developed core worlds. But does that mean that they lack modern technology? Definitely not! The smaller and cheaper teh technological article and its spare parts, the more common it will be on the colonies` for example, almost everyone in the OV universe has TL10-11 personal electronics and medicine (TL11 is the top TL in that universe and TL10 is the most established "high" TL), as a smartphone-equivalent and even a simple automatic cellular relay station aren't too bulky, and their spare parts are small. So even if your backwater colony only has a workshop capable of TL5 machine work, the occasional free trader will bring you TL10-11 medication and electronics. You might even have grav vehicles on your colony, but not too many spare parts as they are quite bulky and needed to be imported from the far-away Core; better manufacture your own ground vehicles which you can repair with locally-fabricated parts. And you might even have a TL10 fusion reactor powering your TL5 colony, but you'll have to use precious free-trader cargo space to carry its building materials and spare parts from the Core. Your doctor has TL11 medications provided as part of the FNH medical programs but if she has heavy high-TL imagining equipment it had to be imported as well as its spare parts (so usually there is far less advanced heavy/expensive medical gear on far-away colonies).
So a typical "low TL" colony has a mixture of technology - a lot of low-tech heavy gear (vehicles, building materials and so on) will be locally-produced low-tech stuff, but many higher-TL imported goods will exist as well (think of the most under-developed African countries today, they typically have TL8 smartphones and late TL6/early TL7 AK-47s even if their manufacturing capabilities are little more than TL5). The lower the TL, the more frontier or "third world" the colony will look like.
In the Ashes of Empire (post-collapse of the Terran Empire) milieu of my Visions of Empire setting, on the other hand, some Blight (think TNE Wilds) worlds have to make do with local tech, which is in many cases incredibly regressed. This of course means that selling locally-sustainable high-tech items on such a world is enourmously profitable, but out there in the Blight there is no law, pirates abound, and local governments may simply confiscate your goods without paying, so this is very risky, and you better invest in heavy weapons to ward off local robbers.
In my Outer Veil universe, TL represents local production capabilities. Frontier colonies naturally tend to have much lower TLs than well-developed core worlds. But does that mean that they lack modern technology? Definitely not! The smaller and cheaper teh technological article and its spare parts, the more common it will be on the colonies` for example, almost everyone in the OV universe has TL10-11 personal electronics and medicine (TL11 is the top TL in that universe and TL10 is the most established "high" TL), as a smartphone-equivalent and even a simple automatic cellular relay station aren't too bulky, and their spare parts are small. So even if your backwater colony only has a workshop capable of TL5 machine work, the occasional free trader will bring you TL10-11 medication and electronics. You might even have grav vehicles on your colony, but not too many spare parts as they are quite bulky and needed to be imported from the far-away Core; better manufacture your own ground vehicles which you can repair with locally-fabricated parts. And you might even have a TL10 fusion reactor powering your TL5 colony, but you'll have to use precious free-trader cargo space to carry its building materials and spare parts from the Core. Your doctor has TL11 medications provided as part of the FNH medical programs but if she has heavy high-TL imagining equipment it had to be imported as well as its spare parts (so usually there is far less advanced heavy/expensive medical gear on far-away colonies).
So a typical "low TL" colony has a mixture of technology - a lot of low-tech heavy gear (vehicles, building materials and so on) will be locally-produced low-tech stuff, but many higher-TL imported goods will exist as well (think of the most under-developed African countries today, they typically have TL8 smartphones and late TL6/early TL7 AK-47s even if their manufacturing capabilities are little more than TL5). The lower the TL, the more frontier or "third world" the colony will look like.
In the Ashes of Empire (post-collapse of the Terran Empire) milieu of my Visions of Empire setting, on the other hand, some Blight (think TNE Wilds) worlds have to make do with local tech, which is in many cases incredibly regressed. This of course means that selling locally-sustainable high-tech items on such a world is enourmously profitable, but out there in the Blight there is no law, pirates abound, and local governments may simply confiscate your goods without paying, so this is very risky, and you better invest in heavy weapons to ward off local robbers.
That's also the one the rules propound. Though in practice there are scores of canonical worlds in the OTU where it's not actually the case (basically any outpost, for example).
The problem I've always had with that definition is that it's pretty useless for my purposes (refereeing and world-building). When I run an adventure on a world, I'm not really interested in whether the locals can make submachine guns or if they import them. What I need to know is if they have them or not. So the definition I use IMTU (and most Traveller writers I know of in practice use for the OTU) is that TL shows what level of technology a significant majority of the population uses. It doesn't matter (much) if they manufacture the stuff locally or if they dig diamonds out of the ground with TL1 picks and shovels and buy everything they use from the next world over. What's important is what kind of weapons the locals tote around and if a visiting PC can get his broken gizmo repaired there or not.
But note that just because most of the population use a given level of technology doesn't mean that I don't allow for governments and rich people to import higher tech stuff. Just because the PCs can't rent a grav vehicle to go gallivanting around in doesn't mean they can't borrow one from the local squire. But that turns it from the routine transaction it would be on a TL12 world to a roleplaying incident on a TL6 world.
Hans
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