MGT Only: To SMG or Not - Comments Needed

[Vladika]

By TL9 there will be electrically fired rounds aimed by the gun's on board computer augmented sight. The gun operator designates a target and the gun fires itself when its onboard computer calculates the gun is pointing in the correct direction taking into account range, weather conditions, local gravity etc.

A TL9+ soldier may have as much difficulty firing over iron sights as Aramis' example of black powder weapons.

And when all that fanny crap fails? Goes out of calibration? Knocked out of alinement? Sighting system destroyed in combat?

BWT I agree with you on the difficulty to hit in Combat.

In Vietnam the US fired 4 million rounds for each "confirmed" kill... (No longer have the book but the statistic came from On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society - LT. COL. DAVE GROSSMAN, U.S. Army (Ret.)) Director, Warrior Science Group, www.killology.com: Member, American Board for Certification in Homeland Security; Member, American College of Forensic Examiners Institute

Col. Grossman is a former West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger who has combined his experiences to become the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor, which has been termed “killology.” In this new field Col. Grossman has made revolutionary new contributions to our understanding of killing in war, the psychological costs of war, the root causes of the current "virus" of violent crime that is raging around the world, and the process of healing the victims of violence, in war and peace.

 

[GypsyComet]

5. And, on that note, I am not sure I am convinced Gun Combat needs splitting between energy and slug. In a high technology society, might it not be assumed that if you can shoot with an assault rifle, you will be just as capable with a laser rifle?

Two points in favor of keeping slug and energy separate.

First, look at it from the other direction. Someone raised on energy weapons is going to look at a slug thrower as an alien experience. Suddenly they have to account for wind and ballistics, while the definition of soft cover changes quite a bit. It is akin to asking a modern youth to be proficient in a WWII Wireless Transmitter just because he uses a cell phone.

Second, HE weapons include the Plasma and Fusion MPs, and use power feeds instead of discrete slugs. As such their care and feeding are different. The Gun Combat skills are not *just* combat skills, but also represent operational knowledge, maintenance, and repair. The HE and laser weapons have a completely different set of processes, potential field and calibration issues, and repair processes.

 

[CosmicGamer]

asking a modern youth to be proficient in a WWII Wireless Transmitter just because he uses a cell phone.

hmm, might be interesting to find an old rotary phone with no display or buttons and see how long it takes the grandkids to discover how to 'dial' it...

 

[mike wightman]

And when all that fanny crap fails? Goes out of calibration? Knocked out of alinement? Sighting system destroyed in combat?

You go back to pointing the business end in the general direction of the enemy and hope they keep their heads down - pretty much as it is now.

Most if not all rpgs get gun combat from the hollywood school of special effects, combat reports such as those you quote give quite a different story.

 

[Vladika]

You go back to pointing the business end in the general direction of the enemy and hope they keep their heads down - pretty much as it is now.

Most if not all rpgs get gun combat from the hollywood school of special effects, combat reports such as those you quote give quite a different story.

Yeah, but I'm pig headed and like simple. I do agree that in a close firefight, nobody is aiming, at least those who plan to live through it. Before that, in a planed shot, I want my iron sights as a backup.

Hollywood:rofl: ever noticed how the bad guys with auto-rifles sub-machine guns etc, and supposed experts, can't hit anything? But, the guy with the snubnosed .38 kills at 100 plus yards all the time...:nonono:

 

[whulorigan]

By TL9 there will be electrically fired rounds aimed by the gun's on board computer augmented sight. The gun operator designates a target and the gun fires itself when its onboard computer calculates the gun is pointing in the correct direction taking into account range, weather conditions, local gravity etc.

Note that these are already accounted for in the MgT Core Rulebook. Computers can be integrated into weapons (including slug-throwers) which can include expert and/or intellect programs to do just what is being described above.

(See Weapon Options Section: Erik's Custom Gun example, p.102 and Intelligent Weapon, p.103 [although it is listed as TL11 base]).

 

[pendragonman]

I've gotten to fire a rather wide variety of weapons - no lasers, but I've fired 20 different models of pistol; one machine pistol (in .22LR); one SMG (Uzi); two dozen different rifles including 2 battle rifles (M1 and SKS), 3 assault rifles (M16, AK47, and a demilled HK bullpup); 4 shotguns (including an Atchison full auto); and a couple machineguns (M60)...

Pistols use physically different postures for effective aimed fire than rifles.
SMG's use a physically different posture than either, because a proper rifle technique won't fit, and pistol technique isn't terribly effective; the use of fire "from the hip" is a whole different kind of fire, and certainly justifies a different skill.

Shotguns use different techniques as well, because of the recoil, the lack of rifling, the use of shot rather than slug.

Firing the Atchison was unpleasant - it didn't knock me over - but it did physically rotate me. My prior experience with shotguns and rifles was of limited use. Single shot, it would have been much like the Mosberg, but rocking and rolling, it was unlike the

SMG and shorter Assault Rifles, especially bullpuped ones, have a lot more commonalities to each other than to battle rifles and hunting rifles, let alone the really big rifles. The short grip, propensity for fire from the "hip", use of burst fire... all point to a third skill.

Shotguns with stocks fire much as any rifle, except for the ballistics. Shotguns without stocks, however, are a unique set of challenges. (Soaking up a 4" magnum entirely through the arm can be painful if one doesn't know how.)

Firing a bolt action is a little different from firing a semi-auto or autofire rifle - but not such as affects your chances to hit. Only in as much as it affects your volume of fire.

Really, it should be 5 discrete firearms skills:
Pistol
SMG & shorter Assault rifles
Long Rifles
Support Weapons (tripod/pintle MG's)
Shotguns

TL4-5 muzzle loaders probably should be separate skills, as well, for pisol and rifle. I qualed expert on the M16 first try in basic. (I came away with unspent rounds - I hit two targets with one shot twice using the late 80's pop-target range qual at Dix.) But I couldn't hit a haybale reliably at 50m with a blackpowder rifled musket. (I couldn't get the loading even, so my ballistics were funky).

My personal weapons experience pretty well matches up with Aramis's.

Weapons I have fired for qualification include M1911A1 Autopistol, M-2 50 cal machine gun, M-85 50 cal machine gun, M-240 7.62 mm machine gun, M-69 grenade launcher, and the M-16 rifle/M-203 grenade launcher combo-meal. Weapons fired for fun and profit include the Ithaca Model 37, M-1 Garand, a nameless 30 cal bolt action rifle fired at Boy Scout camp, and S/W 38 cal revolver.

I have found that firing the Autopistol and the revolver differed only in greater muzzle climb in the revolver.

Firing the M-16 and the M-1 worked pretty much the same as the nameless 30 cal bolt action rifle when on single shot, more rapid fire from the garand and M-16 were very similar when you compensate for the caliber difference.

The M-3 grease gun required a completely different set up from wither the pistols or rifles for distance firing, Short range stuff the "shoot from the hip" fire hose method works just fine.

The 50 cals all worked about the same, the M 240 was easier than a 50 but harder than the M-16 shoulder fired on rocknroll. Shotguns required different work depending on whether you used shot or slug. The grenade launchers required a better understanding of ballistic trajectories due to their relative slow flight characteristics.

 

[aramis]

The 50 cals all worked about the same, the M 240 was easier than a 50 but harder than the M-16 shoulder fired on rocknroll. Shotguns required different work depending on whether you used shot or slug. The grenade launchers required a better understanding of ballistic trajectories due to their relative slow flight characteristics.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the GL. The M203 is just totally alien to riflery. I'm told that the behive rounds are pretty much like firing a 1ga shotgun, but I've only ever fired training rounds.

 

[pendragonman]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the GL. The M203 is just totally alien to riflery. I'm told that the behive rounds are pretty much like firing a 1ga shotgun, but I've only ever fired training rounds.

Yep. Totally alien to riflery. Should definitely be a separate specialty/skill.

Even with the ballistic drop over long distance rifles are way more direct fire. GL firing is like hitting a pop fly riflery is way more line drive.

 

[Quint]

I guess I'll chime in as well...

I will add to the general sense "Listen to Aramis (& Pendragonman)" - what they said with a couple of comments of my own. My own experience is mostly handguns these days, but I also made the point of asking my spouse (two combat tours, plus an Armorer certification) and a old buddy and Traveller player (prior service Marine, now re-enlisted as National Guard).

For the level of granularity that Traveller (all the 2d6 versions at least) have operated, Gun Combat probably needs to be broken out into

Handgun (Pistols and Revolvers)
SMG (Relatively short barreled, pistol caliber, and high rates of fire)
Rifle (generally long barreled, high caliber, and variable rates of fire)
Autoweapon (For the Personally Carried Squad Support Weapons - long barrels, high caliber, very high rates of fire - this would also include Automatic Shotguns)

These are four basic and fundamentally different weapon types with different styles of firing beyond the basics (stance, eye's open, breath control, trigger control, and general "weapons" discipline). My own experience and talking with the aforementioned folks, the idea that shotgun is a different skill is "traditional Traveller" is well and good, but I'm not sure that the fundamentals of actual use are different from regular rifles (again, especially when we're talking about the granularity of 2d6 Traveller). MegaTraveller tried to break things into Rifleman and Combat Rifleman (the latter to cover automatic rifles, as well as regular rifles, etc) but this always seemed a bit odd to have this one oddball skill like that. While there are real differences between single-shot, semi-automatic, burst, and fully automatic fire I'm not sure if it really matters, or rather, couldn't be handled via some other modifier for the unfamiliar. My prior-service military types pointed out that a fundamentally good marksman picked up the "combat rifleman" skills pretty quickly and that the real struggle was to teach people with no firearms experience the fundamentals (at which point, they also picked up the "combat rifleman" details relatively quickly).

Traditionally, Laser Weapons were included in Gun Combat and I really don't see any problem in including them. Same with Neural Weapons. While the principles may be fundamentally different the idea that "the basics" (see above) are the same across weapons is something I could get behind. Besides, while they may not have recoil, for all we know they have some similar jarring effect that functions the same from a distraction standpoint - flash/heat from the laser, bizzaro nerve tingles and pinpoint headaches fro the neural weapons by way of a couple of possibilities. It is certainly possible to create an "energy weapon" skill with the specialties of "Laser" and " Neural" (and perhaps "Disintegrator" for the MgT high tech weapons). For what I've been seeing Mongoose doing, that probably makes the most sense.

I'm agnostic on the idea of Archaic Firearms being included within Gun Combat as a specialty or being it own skill. I could see it either way, but I would honestly probably include it in regular Gun Combat for simplicities sake.

Plasma and Fusion Guns probably deserve their own skill (perhaps hearken back to the old "High Energy Weapons" and give the two specialties), and things like heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars, field artillery etc. all belong under "Heavy Weapons" each with their own specialty. While it might rankle a bit to include a vehicle mounted plasma gun under the same skill as a under-barrel grenade launcher, this also prevents military trained folks from having to build up a huge range of 0-level skills simply to cover the range of basic training that they received. I suppose to could break heavy weapons into two different skills, "Heavy Weapons" for the "multiple man-portable" weapons used by weapon squads (along with man-portable grenade and missile systems) and something like an "earthbound Gunnery" skill with multiple specialties to cover all of the various vehicle mounted (or sized) weapons (field artillery, tank guns, gunship pods, aircraft missiles, etc).

Ok, it's late, hopefully my rambling made some sense.

D.

 

[mike wightman]

Note that these are already accounted for in the MgT Core Rulebook. Computers can be integrated into weapons (including slug-throwers) which can include expert and/or intellect programs to do just what is being described above.

(See Weapon Options Section: Erik's Custom Gun example, p.102 and Intelligent Weapon, p.103 [although it is listed as TL11 base]).

They are almost here in the real world too

 

[rancke]

Traditionally, Laser Weapons were included in Gun Combat...

What tradition would that be? In CT laser carbines and laser rifles are separate skills -- Gun Combat is a cascade skill. (And there is no laser pistol skill).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

What tradition would that be? In CT laser carbines and laser rifles are separate skills -- Gun Combat is a cascade skill. (And there is no laser pistol skill).


Hans

But also in CT (LBB4), Gun Combat skills are integrated in Combat Rifleman, Pistol, Laser weapons, Zero-G Weapons, High Energy weapons, Auto Weapons and SMG, most of them incluiding some gun combat specialties form LBB1.

And yet, SMG was kept alone...

 

[Condottiere]

I rather like Shadowrun's take on this, with associated weapon types and specializations.

Energy weapons? Point and click.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, a lot of comments (thought this one would spark some debate!). I was goijng to summarise things, but I think these two chaps boil things down nicely in terms of what to do with the Gun Combat skill...

Really, it should be 5 discrete firearms skills:
Pistol
SMG & shorter Assault rifles
Long Rifles
Support Weapons (tripod/pintle MG's)
Shotguns

TL4-5 muzzle loaders probably should be separate skills, as well

And...

At the resolution of MgT all you need are two skills.

Handgun
Shoulder fired - the name needs work

Now, Aramis' proposal has the advantage of covering all bases. Mike's has the advantage of being simple. Both may or may not need splitting down into energy & slug weaponry.

My current thinking (feel free to comment/counter-comment)...

I like simple in games design (or, at least simple core rules, with the detail getting layered on it mechanics that will not hit the table every session to bog the game down), so I naturally gravitate towards Mike's solution.

However, while the current Traveller is simple at its core, we are well aware that Traveller players like their detail, and the SMG-debate has been a little bugbear since the core rulebook came out. Also, the current rules mean that once you take one Gun Combat skill, you lose the penalty on all the rest, so a small increase in cascades will not emasculate combat-based characters. So, I think we will lean towards Aramis' proposal (sorry Mike, I am with you in spirit!).

So, I offer up the following cascades for discussion;

GUN COMBAT
Pistol - Slug & Energy
SMG (including shorter Assault rifles, really want a less specific name here, open to suggestions) - Slug & Energy (latter doesn't have to be laser-based, and we must keep in mind other settings than the 3!)
Long Rifles (or just Rifles) - Slug & Energy
Shotguns - Slug only

Point taken on everyone who suggest ancient flintlock/matchlock rifles should be a seperate skill, but considering how litle they pop up in the average Traveller game, I am happy to keep them under Long Rifles. We do a 16-17th Century setting, we will break them down for that.

HEAVY WEAPONS
Launchers
Energy (shorter term for current Man Portable Artillery)
Field
Flamethrower
Support (covering pintle/tripod MGs)

ATHLETICS
Grenades and Archery stay in this category

As I said, all open for further debate.

Next, what to do about it. If we make this change, how should it be presented?

We could dedicate 2-4 pages in the second edition Mercenary book to cover the new skills and list every weapon that has appeared in the current Traveller thus far, alongside what skill it uses.

Or we could wait for a revised core rulebook and keep everything clean. NOt being written at the moment, I hasten to add, but all supplements being written now are being done with a possible revision in mind, for future-proofing purposes.

No, on to a few specific points raised by you chaps...

That does explain quite a few things.

Not sure it does - remember I have only been acting as line developer and writer for Traveller, with very little part in the current core rules.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the GL. The M203 is just totally alien to riflery. I'm told that the behive rounds are pretty much like firing a 1ga shotgun, but I've only ever fired training rounds.

So, where should we put the underslung GLs? Heavy Weapons (launcher) seems the obvious solution, but I am given to understand that not just grenades can come out of those barrels these days, and great big shotgun shells (among others) can be used. Given that, I am tempted to keep everything under the SMG/Assault Rifle and/or Long Rifle cascades above, basically using the same skill as for the rest of the gun - after all, anyone get given one of these things and not be trained for both the main gun and the bit under its barrel?

Want to keep things simple, and really don't want a bunch of cascades for the underslung devices...

 

[whulorigan]

So, I offer up the following cascades for discussion;

GUN COMBAT
Pistol - Slug & Energy
SMG (including shorter Assault rifles, really want a less specific name here, open to suggestions) - Slug & Energy (latter doesn't have to be laser-based, and we must keep in mind other settings than the 3!)
Long Rifles (or just Rifles) - Slug & Energy
Shotguns - Slug only

I mentioned the term "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) up-thread. It is a more recent term that is somewhat fluid in its application and generally covers weapons in the SMG and short-barrel auto-carbine category.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I mentioned the term "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) up-thread. It is a more recent term that is somewhat fluid in its application and generally covers weapons in the SMG and short-barrel auto-carbine category.

I always thought PDW might be a little specific, but it could certainly apply.

What would people prefer? Gun Combat(PDW) or Gun Combat (carbine)? Or something else?

 

[McPerth]

So, I offer up the following cascades for discussion;

GUN COMBAT
Pistol - Slug & Energy
SMG (including shorter Assault rifles, really want a less specific name here, open to suggestions) - Slug & Energy (latter doesn't have to be laser-based, and we must keep in mind other settings than the 3!)
Long Rifles (or just Rifles) - Slug & Energy
Shotguns - Slug only

First of all let me tell again that my experience with weapons is no higher than yours (no matter how low is yours ).

This said, my take is that slug and laser weapons should be different skills, as there's too many differences, both, in maintaining them (assuming that is included in the skill) and about things affecting your fire (gravity, wind, recoil, smoke, glass or othr transparent covers).

As for subdivisions on each of those two broad categories, I left that to people with more understanding and experience than myself to comment, jsut asking, in the sake of playability, not to divide them into too many specialties.

 

[JimMarn]

They are almost here in the real world too

There are a few items I've seen on military channel, no American Heroes Channel, that showed weapons under test.

Rectangular box, each tube contains multiple rounds. Can be fired in large volleys. Sits near the ground on a small mount.

An underslung item that fires a 20mm round that is controled by a computer in the rifle. It can be set to go through a window and burst in the room behind the window. So crouching down behind the window wont save that person from getting hit. The round can also be set to explode like an HE round to break the window or light armor.

 

[aramis]

So, where should we put the underslung GLs? Heavy Weapons (launcher) seems the obvious solution, but I am given to understand that not just grenades can come out of those barrels these days, and great big shotgun shells (among others) can be used. Given that, I am tempted to keep everything under the SMG/Assault Rifle and/or Long Rifle cascades above, basically using the same skill as for the rest of the gun - after all, anyone get given one of these things and not be trained for both the main gun and the bit under its barrel?

Want to keep things simple, and really don't want a bunch of cascades for the underslung devices...

No, most people carrying the M203 are trained in it as a separate proficiency, and that's (last I heard) 2 people per squad. They're also trained for the handheld longarm version of the GL.

An infantry squad typically has 3 weapons specialists or more - 1 on the squad support weapon (an MG), and 2 grenadiers (typically under-rifle), sometimes a mortar team (2 men), plus an NCO, on a squad of 8-16 men.

Mind you, I went to basic at an infantry training base in the 1980's- we all got to familiarization fire dummy rounds, but that wasn't the standard. (80% of my boot company were slated for infantry school. May not have been typical, but thems the stats we were given by the SrDI.) We also got to see a live HE round fired from the longarm GL. Nice big BANG. Do not shoot someone within 10m.... It was audibly painful at 50m from impact.