MGT Only: To SMG or Not - Comments Needed

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, just working these changes into the draft manuscript right now. Only change is that 'support' weapons such as machine guns are under Gun Combat (support) rather than Heavy Weapons. Seemed to make sense.

Anything you want to see changed with Melee weapons while we are at it?

 

[pendragonman]

So long as the weapons that require a particular skill are listed in the skill description, or the required skill is listed in the weapon description.

Better yet, a column on the weapons table clarifying which skill is required to use...

 

[Reban]

I mentioned the term "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) up-thread. It is a more recent term that is somewhat fluid in its application and generally covers weapons in the SMG and short-barrel auto-carbine category.

I always thought PDW might be a little specific, but it could certainly apply.

What would people prefer? Gun Combat(PDW) or Gun Combat (carbine)? Or something else?

I'd think Carbine encompasses PDWs and SMGs as well as short barreled rifles. Maybe not in real life but for simplicity in an RPG it works. Personal Defense Weapons refer more to the role they are used in than to a specific barrel lenght, size of round or mechanism.

There are a few items I've seen on military channel, no American Heroes Channel, that showed weapons under test.

Rectangular box, each tube contains multiple rounds. Can be fired in large volleys. Sits near the ground on a small mount.

An underslung item that fires a 20mm round that is controled by a computer in the rifle. It can be set to go through a window and burst in the room behind the window. So crouching down behind the window wont save that person from getting hit. The round can also be set to explode like an HE round to break the window or light armor.

The first one is Metal Storm. It comes in the version you mention and pistol format. The big difference is that it is an electronically triggered round so rate of fire is computer controlled. Developed in Australia but as far as i know there are no current military users.

The second one is the US army's M25 a 25mm grenade launcher originally part of the XM29 weapons system, currently it's been withdrawn from service due to a training accident where the grenade mis-fed into the chamber. I believe the user was slightly injured.

 

[mike wightman]

There are a few items I've seen on military channel, no American Heroes Channel, that showed weapons under test.

Rectangular box, each tube contains multiple rounds. Can be fired in large volleys. Sits near the ground on a small mount.

An underslung item that fires a 20mm round that is controled by a computer in the rifle. It can be set to go through a window and burst in the room behind the window. So crouching down behind the window wont save that person from getting hit. The round can also be set to explode like an HE round to break the window or light armor.

I was actually thinking of the maturation of this technology:

http://tracking-point.com

By TL9 the electronics behind it will be graphene based and more rugged then the meat being pointing it.

 

[mike wightman]

I always thought PDW might be a little specific, but it could certainly apply.

What would people prefer? Gun Combat(PDW) or Gun Combat (carbine)? Or something else?

My vote would be for PDW since it covers short assault rifles, smgs, carbines and PDWs.

Carbine just makes me think of the M1 carbine, possibly the M4.

Note that bullpups are not carbines as they have full length barrels.

 

[RandyB]

Maybe not in real life but for simplicity in an RPG it works.

Quote the the thread, IMO. The quest for "realism" in weapon skills or combat resolution often leads to granularity that simply doesn't correspond with other aspects of the RPG mechanics. This often results in players overemphasizing the development of their PCs' combat skills in order for the players to have a sense of "my character can handle whatever comes" or "my character is not helpless".

If a given Referee wants to de-emphasize combat, that's a Campaign Standards and Expectations conversation with the players, to make sure everyone is on the same page; expecting the RPG mechanics to "enforce" that is asking for a mechanical solution to a communication problem.

 

[Shonner]

Leave Gun Combat as is. Just add Gun Nut as a skill. Then characters can make their own guns however they want. Maybe this is already in Traveller?

 

[Garyius2003]

In real life a SMG is an automatic weapon typically with a stock of some kind for shoulder or hip fire (steadier aim) and firing a pistol (weaker) round. An assault rifle has a stock for hip/shoulder fire and fires a more powerful rifle round (usually at the lighter end of power for a rifle). A PDW is usually a smaller SMG. In real life, there is a difference because the SMG is better for short range such as in room and not worth much over 75 or 100 meters, and the assault rifle is okay at short ranges and also okay out to 200 or 30 meters.

In game terms they could be handled with the same category, a paragraph of text not really much longer than my first para above dressed up with some cool sci fi text, and with modifiers of plus at short range and big minuses adding up past that for the SMGs, and the assault rifle being the standard as good out to 200 meters. Give plus ups for optical scopes at TL7 to 9, and a bigger one at TL10 and up.

 

[Condottiere]

A machine pistol would sit in the gap between pistol and SMG, while the PDW is supposedly a compromise between the SMG and the assault rifle-carbine (or do we term them assault carbines?).

I think it comes down to size, handling and effect.

 

[whulorigan]

A machine pistol would sit in the gap between pistol and SMG, while the PDW is supposedly a compromise between the SMG and the assault rifle-carbine (or do we term them assault carbines?).

That is my understanding of the PDW, but I am by no means an expert on modern weapons & terminology.

 

[Reban]

PDWs

The archetypal PDW is the FN P-90.

FN developed the weapon after very careful analysis showed only assault infantry - about one eight of an army - needed a powerful assault rifle. The other seven eights - weapons crews, vehicle crew and rear area soldiers, still need a weapon for self defense. Pistols and submachine guns are traditionally the weapon for these troops, but both need training and constant practice to get the best out of them.

FN set about producing a weapon with low-recoil, reasonable self defense range and sufficient power to defeat body armour. As well as this they wanted to produce a weapon that was simple and instinctive to use.

The P-90 uses a 5.7 x28mm round compared to the 9mm Parabellum used by most SMGs and pistols.

Generally; PDWs compared to Assault Rifles have less range, less recoil but an equally effective round. They are smaller and handier to use.

Generally; PDWs compared to SMGs have greater range, and a more effective round and are more intuitive to use.

However, it should be noted that the reason for the existence of PDWs is their role equipping non-frontline troops not anything exclusive to the design of the weapon. They share the best aspects of Assault Rifles, Carbines and SMGs.

As a footnote if you're wondering what a P-90 is, it's the gun used by SG-1 in most of their off world expeditions. BUT! the only reason it was used in the show was the cool factor. It would probably have made more sense to equip the teams with the M-4.

 

[Jacqual]

Two points in favor of keeping slug and energy separate.

First, look at it from the other direction. Someone raised on energy weapons is going to look at a slug thrower as an alien experience. Suddenly they have to account for wind and ballistics, while the definition of soft cover changes quite a bit. It is akin to asking a modern youth to be proficient in a WWII Wireless Transmitter just because he uses a cell phone.

Second, HE weapons include the Plasma and Fusion MPs, and use power feeds instead of discrete slugs. As such their care and feeding are different. The Gun Combat skills are not *just* combat skills, but also represent operational knowledge, maintenance, and repair. The HE and laser weapons have a completely different set of processes, potential field and calibration issues, and repair processes.

Bingo on the maintainance and general weapon upkeep point.
I think you should have the following skills
Handgun
Rifle covers Rifles, Shotguns, Assualt Version, and SMG's.
Laser Laser Carbine, Laser Rifle,
Hi Energy The big scary stuff.

 

[Jame]

I do know that Star Wars: Edge of the Empire uses Ranged: Light, Heavy and Gunnery, for pistols, rifles and heavy/vehicle/starship weapons in order. I'm half-thinking that Mongoose could do something similar as follows:
Ranged: Personal, covering revolvers, auto-, gauss- and laser-pistols, SMGs and shotguns*
Ranged: Military, covering Shotgun, SMGs, Carbines and Rifles (regular, auto, gauss and laser)
Gunnery: Heavy Weapons, covering Light through Heavy MGs (regular, gauss and laser), Grenade Launchers, and plasma/fusion weapons both troop-carried and vehicle-mounted
Gunnery: Starship Turret (all)
Gunnery: Starship Bay (all)

*Shotguns and SMG/PDWs are included in both light and heavy less as coverage and more to allow a civilian to get them when taking Personal weapons. So I suppose that they could be called "Ranged: Civilian" and "Ranged: Military."

As a footnote if you're wondering what a P-90 is, it's the gun used by SG-1 in most of their off world expeditions. BUT! the only reason it was used in the show was the cool factor. It would probably have made more sense to equip the teams with the M-4.

I'd wondered about that when watching. Personally I don't mind the M-4, and wonder about it possibly being used in the same fashion as the P-90.

 

[RandyB]

I do know that Star Wars: Edge of the Empire uses Ranged: Light, Heavy and Gunnery, for pistols, rifles and heavy/vehicle/starship weapons in order. I'm half-thinking that Mongoose could do something similar as follows:
Ranged: Personal, covering revolvers, auto-, gauss- and laser-pistols, SMGs and shotguns*
Ranged: Military, covering Shotgun, SMGs, Carbines and Rifles (regular, auto, gauss and laser)
Gunnery: Heavy Weapons, covering Light through Heavy MGs (regular, gauss and laser), Grenade Launchers, and plasma/fusion weapons both troop-carried and vehicle-mounted
Gunnery: Starship Turret (all)
Gunnery: Starship Bay (all)

*Shotguns and SMG/PDWs are included in both light and heavy less as coverage and more to allow a civilian to get them when taking Personal weapons. So I suppose that they could be called "Ranged: Civilian" and "Ranged: Military."

As I posted elsewhere, that is a good stab at an appropriate level of granularity. Too much granularity puts too much emphasis on combat skills and the acquisition thereof.

 

[aramis]

While it's a minor complaint, I've had players complain about the lack of distinction between slughthrowers and zapguns in Edge of the Empire. (They complain far more vociferously about the combat movement in vehicle combats.)

 

[Jame]

While it's a minor complaint, I've had players complain about the lack of distinction between slughthrowers and zapguns in Edge of the Empire. (They complain far more vociferously about the combat movement in vehicle combats.)

I have been of the longheld opinion that there shouldn't be that much of a distinction in RPGs for two reasons.

1.) In a society where both slugthrowers* and zapguns (pick your choice of what "zapgun" means; I say for this "energy weapon") are fairly common, most people who learn weapons will try both. Especially in the military, where you'd want people who can operate anything. (Obviously civilians wouldn't learn to use heavy and vehicle weapons and yes, starships are vehicles.)

2.) Reduce skill bloat.

* = it doesn't throw bullets, it throws slugs. The bugs.

 

[hiro]

To SMG or Not to SMG, that is the question...

I'm late to the party with this one, I note that Matt has published the play test material that follows on from the discussion, here's my 2p:

A word on granularity. The great thing about the simplicity of MgT is its playability. The more you add complexity to that, the greater the risk of slowing the game and distracting from the game in the quagmire of "simulation". With that said, if what's behind the simplicity is accurate and as true to life as possible then the game benefits from believability. The trouble with believability is our views are potentially skewed by Hollywood and TV. From what little I understand, in real life, when someone is shot, it's not like it is in the movies. With that said, I have to add that I do not speak from real world experience, I have no military service and have never been shot or shot anyone and hope to keep it that way.

I'd argue that the discussion should start with a detailed breakdown then distill the results down to it's simplest form for playability. In the big picture therefore it's important to include energy weapons, both laser and plasma/fusion but I'm not going to include that here except to say that I'd expect (cos you know, no ones made one man portable yet) that they'd be completely different to use and maintain and should therefore have their own skills.

I interpret Gun Combat skill as the ability to fight with a firearm. It's not just marksmanship, its about fighting with a gun (tip of the hat to EAG). It should include a proficiency with weapons that encompasses basic maintenance, what to do when a weapon malfunctions and basic small unit tactics. For that reason I'd bracket together weapons with a similar manual of arms and a similar method of employment.

To get good with any weapon you have to train with it and do so frequently. Becoming familiar with a weapon is a start but the muscle memory to use it when the poop is hitting the fan takes time and is weapon specific. Bringing that much detail to the game tho might be going too far! Now maybe I'm just bah humbugging the whole Hollywood thing with the wish for my RPGs to be a little closer to how I imagine RL (™) runs. Probably true

To the skills:

Pistol. I lump together revolvers and semi auto pistols, reloading is obviously different but its not worth the extra skill.

Pistol, automatic. Firing a Glock 18, Micro Uzi or a Skorpion on full auto is (apart from being daft cos you wont hit a thing after the first round) very different from firing a shoulder braced weapon. I'm unsure if there's a place for this skill but I do wish the rules would make it so the weapon was as uncontrollable in game as it is in real life. Is there a single army that has this type of weapon on general issue? Who outside of Hollywood uses them? What's their actual role?

Rifleman. Shoulder fired weapons employed from 0-200m. Break this down further by TL: TL4- (you use this stuff in Traveller? Really? ) TL5-8 (SMG, PDW, Assault rifle, Battle rifle), TL9-11 (ACR, ACC), TL12+ (Gauss). As has been pointed out, a Marine today is not trained or expected to be proficient with a flintlock, why would that be different for Imperial Marines? The differences between the SMGs and SBRs should be in the weapon stats more than the skill to use them. (SMGs using a pistol calibre round should have noticeably shorter range and poor armour piercing qualities, the PDWs like the P90 and MP7 improve on the AP and range but there's been plenty written about their ineffective incapacitation in comparison to 5.56mm). Ya gotta love the KAC PDW tho…

Shotguns. Just different from rifles. And yeah, as an aside and has been mentioned, the ranges really need to drop, 00 spreads way too big to hit anything after 50m and has very little energy by then. Slugs out to 100m and with a touch of high tech (APFS) I'm sure they could go further.

Precision rifle. For engaging targets beyond 200m using magnified optics where taking into account bullet ballistics (drop and wind) are more important. Snipers are trained separately for many reasons (mostly to do with recon and subterfuge I think) but they shoot differently too. This may become blurred with Rifleman at higher TL as improved optics allow for effective shooting at close and distant ranges using the same weapon/optic.

Support, Direct fire. Bipod or tripod mounted machine guns from light rifle rounds used in the M249 to the 50 cal M2. Default mode is automatic fire and the weapons are built to deal with the heat and pounding, carbines and rifles are not.

Support, Indirect fire. Low velocity rifle grenades, 50mm mortars. The M203/M320 and similar. I'm not sure if RAM rifle grenades would fall under Support, Direct fire; I play them as having decent ballistics unlike the M203. Arguably this could go into support weapons skill, unless that skill is being merged with Gun Combat and the artillery/vehicle mounted Big Guns (above 50 cal) are being handled differently.

I'm not sure this is relevant but it's been brought up so here goes… If you research current training, very few instructors (anyone?) espouse point firing. In part I think this is because in this world of litigation you're held accountable for every shot fired but from a combat POV you want to be hitting the bugger you're shooting at so s/he doesn't hit you. Aiming helps that, does firing from the hip? Bah humbug!

 

[RandyB]

I would simplify even further, especially given Traveller's die rolling granularity:

Handgun Any one-handed firearm without a shoulder stock
Longarm Any firearm with a shoulder stock*
LAW Any firearm fired from atop the shoulder (LAW, RPG, etc.)

Differentiation within each type, no matter how "realistic", is beneath the granularity of Traveller's resolution mechanism. Plus, the fewer types, the less emphasis combat skills have,

*a two-handed firearm without a shoulder stock would be used at a penalty; any two-handed firearm shortened so as to be used with one hand would be treated as a Handgun

 

[atpollard]

I would simplify even further, especially given Traveller's die rolling granularity:

Handgun Any one-handed firearm without a shoulder stock
Longarm Any firearm with a shoulder stock*
LAW Any firearm fired from atop the shoulder (LAW, RPG, etc.)

Differentiation within each type, no matter how "realistic", is beneath the granularity of Traveller's resolution mechanism. Plus, the fewer types, the less emphasis combat skills have,

*a two-handed firearm without a shoulder stock would be used at a penalty; any two-handed firearm shortened so as to be used with one hand would be treated as a Handgun

I doubt iron-mongery will ever be pared down this far, but I generally agree ... K.I.S.S. ...

Handgun: Any weapon designed to be fired one-handed.
Longarm: Any weapon designed to be fired two-handed.
Support: Tripod-mounted Machine Guns, Mortars, etc.
Gunnery: Cannon, Howitzer, Turret, Bay, Spinal

 

[RandyB]

I doubt iron-mongery will ever be pared down this far, but I generally agree ... K.I.S.S. ...

Handgun: Any weapon designed to be fired one-handed.
Longarm: Any weapon designed to be fired two-handed.
Support: Tripod-mounted Machine Guns, Mortars, etc.
Gunnery: Cannon, Howitzer, Turret, Bay, Spinal

In Traveller, likely not. I swiped my proposal outright from a GURPS article... :devil: