To vector, or not to vector...

[mike wightman]

Hans I have got to say a big thank you.

For some reason I'd never considered the necessity of big in-system haulers to systems like Terra - high TL well developed systems with goods moving in bulk between worlds in the same solar system.

In-system smallcraft shuttling goods yes, but for transporting stuff in bulk from mercury to Earth, Earth to Mars that sort of thing then big haulers are needed.

Loads of new adventure possibilities

Again - thank you.

(How has it taken all these years for that penny to drop???)

 

[E.D.Quibell]

What's he doing inside the stellar jump limit with a starship? Jump drives are expensive so using a starship to carry stuff deep inside a jump shadow is wasteful. He arrived near Terra (because doing anything else makes him stand out) and moved to Terra (because doing anything else would make him stand out). There he discharged his legitimate cargo (because doing anything else makes him stand out) and took on a new cargo, and why would he accept freight for Venus or Mercury?

If it's acceptable for a Free Trader to take a cargo from Terra to Venus or Mercury that pays the bills then a pirate would too, and why wouldn’t this type of work be available for traders to do? You don't have to waist a whole bunch of fuel in jump to do it. You could fit in a few days of trip while you wait for the right price for your speculative cargo. It's the type of thing a free trader would do.

Where would he get freight for Venus or Mercury, since he'd have to charge more than an in-system cargo hauler would? So he headed out towards Terra's jump limit (because doing anything else would make him stand out) and jumped away, without at any time getting anywhere near the inner system.

If the pirate is acting like a merchantman of a shipping line, I'd agree that they would jump in collect freight and jump out. And this would be a good way to case any system, however they are more likely to act as a free trader, and free traders don't act like merchantmen of shipping lines, otherwise there wouldn't be a distinction, and there wouldn't be any merchant campaigns for PCs to play.

If he did find an excuse to head for Venus or Mercury, he'd be assigned a traffic lane that didn't bring him near any other ship.

Hans

Likely in Terra there is tight Space traffic control, but it still doesn't mean there won't be opportunities.

Not every merchant is going to conform to the "jump as quick as you can" paradime of trade in the space lanes. Lots of them are, because it makes economic sense, but not all of them. Some will make their money in other ways.

Generalisations are good for the majority of stuff but they are only that, generalizations, i.e. they don't always work that way.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

If it's acceptable for a Free Trader to take a cargo from Terra to Venus or Mercury that pays the bills then a pirate would too, and why wouldn’t this type of work be available for traders to do? You don't have to waist a whole bunch of fuel in jump to do it. You could fit in a few days of trip while you wait for the right price for your speculative cargo. It's the type of thing a free trader would do.

Yes, a paid-up Free Trader might eke out its earnings with an in-system run if nothing better is available. But before he does that, he has to set down in a port and be inspected by customs officers. When they spot his 4G maneuver drives, they're going to become very curious about how he manages to make a living with greater expenses and smaller cargo hold than his competition. When they notice that he's loaded for bear, they might easily be sufficiently curious to keep him in port while they investigate his identity and prior movements. Even if they don't bother, he becomes an object of interest to the system defenders.

...however they are more likely to act as a free trader, and free traders don't act like merchantmen of shipping lines, otherwise there wouldn't be a distinction, and there wouldn't be any merchant campaigns for PCs to play.

True, but the distinction is that the free trader has to spend time in port scrounging up his next cargo while the regular merchant will have cargo and passengers already lined up (by the local company factor) when he arrives. Typical free trader behavior is different from regular merchant behavior, but that doesn't make it random or haphazard, it just makes it different, but equally typical.

Likely in Terra there is tight Space traffic control, but it still doesn't mean there won't be opportunities.

Why not? It would be pretty simple to assign routes that didn't offer any opportunities.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I'm talking about a long trip inside a solar system. Not all traffic is simply mainworld to jump point. There's plenty of other installations scattered throughout in most systems.

S4,

I very much agree. I've been pointing out for well over a decade on various Traveller fora that, while we've a very poor handle on the amount of economic activity which occurs "beyond" the mainworld's jump limit and yet still within the mainworld's system, such activity does occur and should thus be a target for crime as much - if not more - than the port-to-limit activity too many myopically focus on.

We know however the other planets, moons, and belts host populations and installations, that in turn means shipping, and that in turn may attract piracy.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Generalisations are good for the majority of stuff but they are only that, generalizations, i.e. they don't always work that way.

Ewan,

Very well put.

Sadly, generalizations have a way of quickly becoming certainties and then eventually strictures. After generalities fossilize into certainties and strictures, they spark unwarranted assumptions such as the idea that a pirate will only target a vessel with jump drives or that vessels with jump drives will never carry in-system freight so they can never be a target of piracy beyond the port-to-limit route.

It's a hangover from the many charts, tables, look-ups, and formulas the RPG hobby relies on. Charts, tables, look-ups, and formulas tell us that this number of orcs will always be encountered, this number of cruisers will always comprise a squadron, this equipment will always cost that amount, this dragon will always have that range of treasure, and this world will always have that military budget, will always spend it to the fullest, and always in the same manner as every other world.

What were originally meant to be play-aids become crutches and then straight-jackets.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Matt123]

What is a certainty tho, is that a non-jump capable ship without the expensive computer system, JD, PP, Jump fuel capacity & crew requirements, is not just a lttle more competitive at carrying in system cargo. No, its a lot more competitive. Standard in-system cargo will not earn you 1000 cr pr ton.

A Free Trader is unlikely to make mortgage payments doing in-system runs. Perhaps in system jumps, yes. Certainly there are lots of other reasons tho' why a trader might still make an in-system run.

But as Hans points out, any ship doing something unusual (not neccesarily illegal, just differant) becomes the first priority for law enforcement to take a look at. Any new ship doing an in-system run is unusual in itself. The in-system traffic otherwise will be very well known, spaceships will ply the same lanes for decades.

 

[boomslang]

...such activity does occur and should thus be a target crime as much - if not more - than the port-to-limit activity too many myopically focus on.

I concur strongly with this -- to the point that I would replace "if not more" with "almost certainly significantly more"...

I have designed entire scenarios around intrasystem shipping and travel operations, to the point of devising dedicated non-starships, routes, facilities, and economies in detail.

 

[aramis]

What is a certainty tho, is that a non-jump capable ship without the expensive computer system, JD, PP, Jump fuel capacity & crew requirements, is not just a lttle more competitive at carrying in system cargo. No, its a lot more competitive. Standard in-system cargo will not earn you 1000 cr pr ton.

A Free Trader is unlikely to make mortgage payments doing in-system runs. Perhaps in system jumps, yes. Certainly there are lots of other reasons tho' why a trader might still make an in-system run.

But as Hans points out, any ship doing something unusual (not neccesarily illegal, just differant) becomes the first priority for law enforcement to take a look at. Any new ship doing an in-system run is unusual in itself. The in-system traffic otherwise will be very well known, spaceships will ply the same lanes for decades.

A good insystem haler is not a 1G ship; the cost differential between 1G and 6G isn't sufficient enough to make much difference. Also, you don't save much on PP, if any; the Maneuver drive takes as much power as ever.

You save on jump fuel and jump drive tonnage (12.5%+5Td under MGT/CTBk2, 12% under HG, MT, TNE, T4, T20). You also save the expense of the drive, at MCr5 per 100TdHull+MCr10 for J1 (MGT/CTBk2) or MCr8 per hundred TdHull (CTHG,MT,TNE,T4,T20).

 

[sabredog]

For that matter, a lot of in-system "hauling" could be handled by just using mass drivers to throw the cargoes into the "cargo-stream". Using ships for other than very large, fragile, or expensive cargoes seems kind of wasteful, unless special handling is called for.

Packets of ores mined from asteroids, moons, and planetoids (is airless in particular) would go into streams that would have beacons and other warnings need to keep traffic out of them.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, and no ethically challenged merchant is going to match vectors with said cargo stream and help themselves...

that's the second adventure seed I've got from this thread - keep 'em coming

 

[Whipsnade]

Hmm, and no ethically challenged merchant is going to match vectors with said cargo stream and help themselves...

Mike,

Grote/Glisten IMTU has such a system and the same problems/opportunities you noticed.


Regards,
Bill

 

[sabredog]

Hmm, and no ethically challenged merchant is going to match vectors with said cargo stream and help themselves...

...Exactly :smirk:

 

[sabredog]

Besides, as referee's it is our responsibility to provide temptation to the ethically challenged and enterprising adventurer.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

True, but the distinction is that the free trader has to spend time in port scrounging up his next cargo while the regular merchant will have cargo and passengers already lined up (by the local company factor) when he arrives. Typical free trader behavior is different from regular merchant behavior, but that doesn't make it random or haphazard, it just makes it different, but equally typical.

But the free traders we deal with as Refeers arn't typical. The PCs scratch around in port looking for cargo and passangers, and get distracted by a Patron that sends them on an erond across the bright face while the ship sits in port doing nothing for three weeks.

Are you saying that as the PCs are so atypical that they should be bugged by law enforcment _all_ the time? much like a pirate would be?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[the angle]

Although I've never been one to fret overmuch about canon, what is the 'official' degree to which a ship can become undetectable when lying doggo? I've generally figured that a pirate ship would be outfitted to become essentially invisible, shutting down reactors (to cut heat emissions) and operating at very low level on batteries for the few days required before a likely target presented itself. Once that target is identified with passive sensors, the pirates plot the fastest intercept, light the fires, and hit the target fast and hard. It's dangerous, but piracy is always going to be a high-risk business for desperate people.

I've generally assumed that jump navigation is accurate but not that accurate. It can drop you within about 10 light-seconds of your desired spot. That's crazy accurate when you're throwing yourself across distances measured in parsecs, but it means that you can emerge anywhere within a sphere about 6 million km in diameter. Earth's diameter is roughly 0.04 light-seconds. The 100d limit is roughly 4 light-seconds. Your margin of error on emerging from jump is roughly 10 light-seconds. So to minimize your chance of a misjump by emerging too close to the destination planet, you need to aim for a point about 15 light-seconds away, which can drop you anywhere from 5 to 25* light-seconds from your docking berth. Even a 1-g ship can cross the worst of those distances in less than a day, so in the big picture, it's not a huge delay (and it can be assumed into the abstract 1-week-in-system) ... but it does give pirates a bigger window in which to operate. (It also forces invasion fleets to arrive scattered and makes them somewhat vulnerable while they regroup.)

Steve

* I used (2d6-Navigation)*(2 light-seconds) to determine how far you were from the target on breakout. A light-second is 0.1 million km, so it's trivial to figure travel time using the table on page 21 of the MT Referee's Companion.

 

[Matt123]

Are you saying that as the PCs are so atypical that they should be bugged by law enforcment _all_ the time? much like a pirate would be?

Most law enforcement authorities will take the view that the one time they didn't check...

Regardless, if the PC's choose to act in a manner that is atypical, it should be no surprise to them that they attract attention. The way to avoid attention is to blend into the crowd, hide or get permits/permission.

If a Free Trader wants to make an in system journey, simply filing a flight plan will ensure they are seen as 'typical' and has the advantage law enforcement, if they are around, will watch thier backs with regard atypical ships.

 

[Matt123]

Although I've never been one to fret overmuch about canon, what is the 'official' degree to which a ship can become undetectable when lying doggo? I've generally figured that a pirate ship would be outfitted to become essentially invisible, shutting down reactors (to cut heat emissions) and operating at very low level on batteries for the few days required before a likely target presented itself. Once that target is identified with passive sensors, the pirates plot the fastest intercept, light the fires, and hit the target fast and hard. It's dangerous, but piracy is always going to be a high-risk business for desperate people.

It won't be an issue for pirates that have managed to aquire/purchase military grade sensors. The mercant will be spotted well before she spots the pirate. IMHO Piracy without excellent sensors is extremely dangerous. How else do you spot/avoid the pirate hunters...

Otherwise CT has it that ships lying doggo in orbit cannot be detected at ranges greater than 1/8 of normal detection range. Lying doggo in space reduces detection range by half.

 

[sabredog]

Are you saying that as the PCs are so atypical that they should be bugged by law enforcment _all_ the time? much like a pirate would be?

Regards,

Ewan

Not necessarily, you have a law level to generalize the local enforcement tolerance across the legal board and that can be used to determine such things. However, two things come up IMO:

1) Players get special attention, or so it may seem, since they are the players and tend to get into situations which might attract extra attention. Even if these are only intermittant they can begin to grow a legal tail behind them composed of various petty offenses, and maybe some serious ones, that starts to gain more attention from various enforcement agencies. "Oh jeez, it's the Chromium Rodent again...ok, take a couple of guys with you and make sure you peek into the aft avionics bay behind the master breaker panel. Last 2 times they were here I found some contraband back there."

2) Since Free Traders seem to generally work on the fuzzy edge of legality a lot of the time, and come and go from a lot of places outside the regular trade routes used by the larger trading companies they might get "harassed" a little more because people might be worried more about them bringing in some kind of health and public safety hazard. Some sort of infection from who knows where. The place they came from when they sent in their flight plan after jump might be known to be a source of regular legal problems from other Free Traders (the term covers a lot of ground here) and so the group as a whole might be looked at as kind of shady already.

Which then, this might cause some extra blowback to burn the players. "Here comes another one of those Free Traders, man, I hate the way these guys always try to pull something. Always whining about regulations and fees, always trying to smuggle something past customs - they practically take pride is skirting the rules....let's make sure we look this one over real good."

 

[Supplement Four]

Once that target is identified with passive sensors, the pirates plot the fastest intercept, light the fires, and hit the target fast and hard.

That's the problem Aramis and Whipsnade are having with pirate comments: It's too damn hard to match vectors with a vessel once its any good distance away from launch point.

It's actually a fun exercise. Break out a hex or graph map (hex size = 10,000 km works best) and plot out an intercept. Once the prey is far enough away from the standard system traffic, out alone by itself on its run across the system, it's moving at a pretty steep vector.

The pirate's intentions are known pretty early into the intercept, long before it actually catches the prey vessel. And, as I said before, the key is to plot the pirate's course so that no other ship can intercept in time. All the rest of the system can do is watch.

Your pirate is going to need a top-notch M-Drive if its going to match vectors with a vessel that has several hours of thrust behind it (vs. the pirate starting from relative rest).

You asked one question about Sensors. In CT, Sensors rules are light, and sensor are fairly powerful. The game assumes that everyone can detect everyone else automatically unless some specific circumstance presents itself (hiding close to an asteroid, non-detectable from the static caused by a gas giant's interference, in the sensor shadow of a moon, etc). The speed of light will slow things down a little, but not much--not enough to really matter to communications and such.

The other thing to determine is: How much traffic is in a system? To the 100 diam limit? Across the system? Where are the SDB's?

A pirate needs traffic to prey upon, but it also needs those vessels along and far away from help. Not every system is ideal for pirate operations.

 

[boomslang]

Hmm, and no ethically challenged merchant is going to match vectors with said cargo stream and help themselves...

Assuaging the greater public concern, no guerrilla insurgency would ever commandeer a mass-driver device and attempt to weaponize it against military and or civilian targets downrange --- that would be so unsporting as to be beyond any serious consideration.

Likewise, the capture/deceleration devices would never malfunction in any way, leaving ballistic cargoes to fall wherever they may; the technology may be assumed to be completely reliable.

Seriously: small craft are your best bet -- big craft are feasible in some specialized scenarios, but the low operational overhead and high flexibility in routing make fleets of small craft (an adequately-large pool of driver personnel permitting) the most efficient solution to in-system hauling for distances of less than maybe 20 or 30 AUs.