To vector, or not to vector...

[aramis]

The problem, Which you ARE IGNORING, S4, is that the pirate intercepting the inbound merchant is in a lose-lose situation; even if he does get the cargo, the locals don't have to match vector... just saturate him with missile fire (which, under CT Bk2, is even more deadly than in later editions...) and prevent the pirate's escape.

He's toast. Flip him over, he's DONE on that side. He's just as constrained by the physics as his target, and going into a zone from which escape is suicidal.

 

[Whipsnade]

Why would you think I haven't? I've played lots of that type of thing. Yes, it's a bitch to match vectors. Pirates can't attack every ship that way. They have to wait for the right one.

S4,

You know I'm strongly pro-pirate and you know I've argued forcefully over the years for the plausible existence of pirates in the 57th Century. However, even I can't fully agree with the model you propose. The idea that a vessel can putz around near the jump limit waiting for a "Golden Moment" when all the vectors will work without also drawing attention to itself beggars disbelief.

Will there be instances in which a pirate intercepts and loots a merchant between the port and the jump limit? Or between the gas giant and the jump limit? Yes, undoubtedly.

However will those instances occur often enough to make piracy pay? Certainly not.

Typically, a pirate disguises himself as a merchant, and then trails a vessel with a lower class M-Drive. Sometimes, the pirate starts at a different locations and figures where, along the target's course, they can intercept.

Loitering in the hopes of such a "Golden Moment" will occur is the best way to call attention to yourself.

The pirate is usually found out long before the attack begins, but at that vector, as I said in the post above, there's not much anyone can do about it.

That ignores weapon ranges, sensor ranges, and a whole host of other issues. Among other things, if you're using HG2, ships in Earth orbit can fire at targets beyond Earth's jump limit so lots of people can interfere with your piracy attempt and, if using you're LBB:2, you can only detect another vessel 2 light-seconds away so finding a vessel in the hopes that your "Golden Moment" has occurred is rather hard.

I strongly believe in piracy and I strongly support the existence of piracy, but even I must acknowledge that the chances of port-to-limit intercepts are so vanishingly rare that they occur only via GM fiat.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Tellon]

Which is probably why people have home-brewed high ROF lasers as an anti-missile turret. And it doesn't matter if one is using grav focusing or not -- one just needs enough damage to puncture the missile and detonate the warhead before it hits the ship

so say max range is ~1 hex (30,000 km in TNE), but ROF can be say 200+ to really make incoming missile barrages a thing to ponder.

So if the pirate was smart -- he would put on say 2 (US) Phalanx CIWS or (Russian) AK-630 systems -- and that merchant will be crying when he sees those missiles go kaboom.

 

[Whipsnade]

So if the pirate was smart -- he would put on say 2 (US) Phalanx CIWS or (Russian) AK-630 systems -- and that merchant will be crying when he sees those missiles go kaboom.

Tellon,

Have fun explaining away the presence of those CWIS systems the next time you're in port.

Have fun explaining why you're hanging around the jump limit for days instead of jumping away or traveling in to port.

And have fun explaining why you suddenly begin thrusting along intercept courses too.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Tellon]

Tellon,

Have fun explaining away the presence of those CWIS systems the next time you're in port.

Have fun explaining why you're hanging around the jump limit for days instead of jumping away or traveling in to port.

And have fun explaining why you suddenly begin thrusting along intercept courses too.


Regards,
Bill

LOL -- a pirate having to explain those things? .. to the authorities? .. piffles .. lol

Like you, I am pro-piracy -- in fact, it is one way the exiled noble families can deal with the current mainworld govt that stole thier land .. so it makes for interesting system political situations -- 1 day, a pirate, the next a privateer .. lol

 

[Whipsnade]

LOL -- a pirate having to explain those things? .. to the authorities? .. piffles .. lol

Tellon,

If they want things like parts and repairs they'll have to deal with authorities eventually. This isn't the 17th Century and you can't careen a starship on some Caribbean beach.

Like you, I am pro-piracy -- in fact, it is one way the exiled noble families can deal with the current mainworld govt that stole thier land .. so it makes for interesting system political situations -- 1 day, a pirate, the next a privateer .. lol

And that's exactly how pirates will "deal" with the authorities. They'll deal with the authorities by working for the authorities.

Oddly enough, that's how both historical and current day pirates dealt with and deal with the authorities too.

On another note, would it be too much trouble for you to drop the "LOL" stuff? It makes your otherwise interesting posts seem like they belong on 4chan.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Tellon]

Oddly enough, that's how both historical and current day pirates dealt with and deal with the authorities too.

it's not odd at all.

Although, I do like the idea of Port Royal or Tortuga where the pirates ARE the authorities

 

[Supplement Four]

The problem, Which you ARE IGNORING, S4, is that the pirate intercepting the inbound merchant is in a lose-lose situation; even if he does get the cargo, the locals don't have to match vector... just saturate him with missile fire (which, under CT Bk2, is even more deadly than in later editions...) and prevent the pirate's escape.

What kind of range do you have on those missiles? None created with Special Supplement 3 will be able to do what you propose.

I'm not ignoring anything, and I've played it, several times, by the book.

He's toast. Flip him over, he's DONE on that side. He's just as constrained by the physics as his target, and going into a zone from which escape is suicidal.

LOL. You crack me up.

No pirate in his right mind is going to attack when he doesn't have the upper hand.

Prey leaves point A, on a 2 day in-system journey to point B. Pirate knows Prey has a 1G M-Drive. Pirate has a 3G M-Drive.

Pirate plots course to intercept Prey about 1 day into Prey's journey.

This is the tricky part for the Pirate. If he is discovered to be anything other than a merchant, Prey will be alerted to early and escape. The tricky part is having Prey convinced that the Pirate isn't a pirate--just some other in-system traffic.

At some point, Prey will catch on the the Pirate is a Pirate. This will typically be long before the Pirate can match vectors with Prey.

Prey will call for help. Ships may/may not be dispatched, but they'll have moral support from the starport. And, the entire attack will be caught on sensors at the starport and other vessels.

Prey will move in, match vectors, disable Prey, transfer cargo, and be gone, long, long, long before anybody else can get way the hell out here, at this speed.

A Pirate worth his salt can pull it off.

S4,

You know I'm strongly pro-pirate and you know I've argued forcefully over the years for the plausible existence of pirates in the 57th Century. However, even I can't fully agree with the model you propose. The idea that a vessel can putz around near the jump limit waiting for a "Golden Moment" when all the vectors will work without also drawing attention to itself beggars disbelief.

I never said anything about jump limit. Aramis did. My example has always been a 2 day in-system journey.

 

[Whipsnade]

I never said anything about jump limit. Aramis did. My example has always been a 2 day in-system journey.

S4,

Okay then.

The pirate is just putzing around somewhere in the system, hoping no one notices them, hoping someone on an two day in-system course will just so happen to provide the "Golden Moment", hoping that they won't notice this stranger fashioning an interception course, hoping that they won't start screaming, hoping that they won't divert to make an interception harder, and hoping that no one else will notice and/or try to intervene.

Waiting for a "Golden Moment" between jump limit and port is bad enough, waiting for a "Golden Moment" in the vastness of an entire system is even harder.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Sorry, S4, but not gonna happen unless there's no system defense, becuase 99% of all flights are gonna be port-to-point.

A 2day 1G journey in system is too long for port to jump point unless you missed or have a stellar limit to avoid, and too short to be interplanetary unless you're talking 0rbit 0-orbit 1, in which case, you're still inside the jump limit of the star, even a type D.

A simple knowledge of the system mechanics of any of 4 editions (CT, MT, TNE, T20) extended gen will show that. It's only 1.8million km. And it's just 12% past the size A jump limit of 1.6million km (1600km x10 x100).

Your parameter fits only asteroid belts and world approaches.

 

[Supplement Four]

The pirate is just putzing around somewhere in the system, hoping no one notices them, hoping someone on an two day in-system course will just so happen to provide the "Golden Moment", hoping that they won't notice this stranger fashioning an interception course, hoping that they won't start screaming, hoping that they won't divert to make an interception harder, and hoping that no one else will notice and/or try to intervene.

It was just one example. As I said, the riskiest part for the pirate is the early stages before the prey notices the pirate is pursuing.

Fake transponders, paid off comm techs at the starport, legitimate vessels that actually double as pirates, I'm sure it all part of the pirate play book.

Sorry, S4, but not gonna happen unless there's no system defense, becuase 99% of all flights are gonna be port-to-point.

You think every system has system defense? Pysadi, TL 4, Starport C, no bases, has an SBD assigned to it?

And, if it does, how many are there? Can they cover the entire system?

Probably not.

A 2day 1G journey in system is too long for port to jump point unless you missed or have a stellar limit to avoid, and too short to be interplanetary unless you're talking 0rbit 0-orbit 1, in which case, you're still inside the jump limit of the star, even a type D.

I'm starting to think you can't read because you keep bringing your argument to a port-to-jump point scenario, which has never entered my comments.

Your parameter fits only asteroid belts and world approaches.

It fits any system where there is a lot of traffic in-system.

 

[Whipsnade]

Fake transponders, paid off comm techs at the starport, legitimate vessels that actually double as pirates, I'm sure it all part of the pirate play book.

S4,

I think they're part of the playbook too. Of course you didn't bother mentioning them until prompted.

You think every system has system defense?

Nope.

Pysadi, TL 4, Starport C, no bases, has an SBD assigned to it?

Why this talk about a port all of a sudden? I thought you weren't talking about the limit-to-port run.

Anyway, an SBD? Probably not. Patrollers from the duchy navy, subsector navy, or Imperial navy? Probably yes.

And, if it does, how many are there? Can they cover the entire system?

Again, probably not. But they needn't cover the entire system, they only need to cover where people go.

I'm starting to think you can't read because you keep bringing your argument to a port-to-jump point scenario, which has never entered my comments.

I'm not bringing it up either, but, as we'll see below, you're ignoring the other half of Aramis' point.

It fits any system where there is a lot of traffic in-system.

A lot of in-system traffic? Sure. Oddly enough, "your two days at one gee" trip doesn't actually go anywhere.

As Aramis has repeatedly pointed out, two days at one gee is not only too long for most jump limit trips - but you're not talking about jump limit trips - but it's also too short for most in-system trips.

Following the old accelerate-flip-decelerate profile, two days at one gee is going to see you travel roughly 0.5 AUs.

Depending on their orbital positions, that will get you to Venus or maybe Mercury but no pirate worth his salt is going to be caught that deep in Sol's jump limit and that far away from the safety of jump space.

A half an AU won't get you to Mars, even when Earth and Mars are at their closest, nor the Belt, no Jupiter. After Jupiter and with only one gee of maneuvering thrust, you'll reach Saturn and the outer planets faster by jumping.

So, where is your target going at one gee for two days?


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

If you're making a .5 AU transit world-to-world in system, you're close enough to be inside the stellar jump limit.

 

[Whipsnade]

If you're making a .5 AU transit world-to-world in system, you're close enough to be inside the stellar jump limit.

Aramis,

Yup. As I wrote Depending on their orbital positions, that will get you to Venus or maybe Mercury but no pirate worth his salt is going to be caught that deep in Sol's jump limit and that far away from the safety of jump space..

I don't understand what S4 is driving at with his "Two days @ One gee" example, but hopefully he'll explain soon.

As I've written for years now, I strongly support piracy. I've also been pointing out that economic activity takes place away from the mainworld for just as long. In-system trips to out-system locations give pirates more room to operate, not much more room, but some.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Typically, a pirate disguises himself as a merchant, and then trails a vessel with a lower class M-Drive. Sometimes, the pirate starts at a different locations and figures where, along the target's course, they can intercept.

Disguising himself as a merchant requires acting like a merchant. Which means arriving as close to a port as the jump shadows will allow and then proceeding as fast as possible to said port along a route assigned to him by system traffic control, not to mention conducting legitimate merchant business when he gets there.

A starship represents a huge investment and every minute the merchant isn't carrying passengers, freight, or cargo from one place to another he's effectively losing money. Lots of money. Dawdling is suspicious activity in itself, let alone deviating from the assigned traffic lane.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Depending on their orbital positions, that will get you to Venus or maybe Mercury but no pirate worth his salt is going to be caught that deep in Sol's jump limit and that far away from the safety of jump space.

Why wouldn't the pirate be inside the Stellar jump limit? If they have a good chance of a prize and a good chance of escape by vectoring to the limit using the velocity they have already gained to catch the merchant why wouldn't they be inside the limit?

If matching vectors is so hard and there is nothing in the vacinity to catch you why wouldn't the pirate use this to there advantage?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Whipsnade]

Why wouldn't the pirate be inside the Stellar jump limit? If they have a good chance of a prize and a good chance of escape by vectoring to the limit using the velocity they have already gained to catch the merchant why wouldn't they be inside the limit?

Ewan,

Because it's harder to run away after making your snatch. Grab some merchant around Mercury and it will take you two days to clear Sol's jump limit. That's two days during which time all sorts of unpleasant things can happen.

Will the prize be worth the risk occasionally? Sure. Will the prize always be worth the risk or sometimes be worth the risk? Surely not.


Regards,
Bill

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Because it's harder to run away after making your snatch. Grab some merchant around Mercury and it will take you two days to clear Sol's jump limit. That's two days during which time all sorts of unpleasant things can happen.

I agree it's harder to run away, but if there is a good chance that they will get away then is dosen't matter if it takes 2 days, or 10, or none.

Will the prize be worth the risk occasionally? Sure. Will the prize always be worth the risk or sometimes be worth the risk? Surely not.

Again I agree. Sometimes it will be worth the risk, sometimes they may have to take the risk. Sometimes it won't be worth the risk.

But to say that pirates won't ply their trade inside the stellar limit is wrong. Pirates will ply their trade anywhere they can as long as they can get away.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Why wouldn't the pirate be inside the Stellar jump limit? If they have a good chance of a prize and a good chance of escape by vectoring to the limit using the velocity they have already gained to catch the merchant why wouldn't they be inside the limit?

What's he doing inside the stellar jump limit with a starship? Jump drives are expensive so using a starship to carry stuff deep inside a jump shadow is wasteful. He arrived near Terra (because doing anything else makes him stand out) and moved to Terra (because doing anything else would make him stand out). There he discharged his legitimate cargo (because doing anything else makes him stand out) and took on a new cargo, and why would he accept freight for Venus or Mercury? Where would he get freight for Venus or Mercury, since he'd have to charge more than an in-system cargo hauler would? So he headed out towards Terra's jump limit (because doing anything else would make him stand out) and jumped away, without at any time getting anywhere near the inner system.

If he did find an excuse to head for Venus or Mercury, he'd be assigned a traffic lane that didn't bring him near any other ship.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't understand what S4 is driving at with his "Two days @ One gee" example, but hopefully he'll explain soon.

I simply meant an intra-solar trip. Maybe two days at one G is too far. I dunno. I wrote it off the top of my head.

I'm talking about a long trip inside a solar system. Not all traffic is simply mainworld to jump point. There's plenty of other installations scattered throughout in most systems.

Maybe the system is an asteroid belt. Maybe the journey is to a scientific station two orbits away from the main world. Maybe it's a trip to the autodrone in its own wide orbit around the system's star. Maybe it's the link between the main world and the system's gas giant.

Are you and Aramis maintaining that piracy can only occur when a vessel is a relative low velocity at its journey launch or landing points?