Too many wedge shaped scout ships.

[Blue Ghost]

So, I'm cruising through the gallery, and am noticing all the variances of the infamous wedge ship, the Type-S scout, and a thought occured to me; aren't there an awful lot of isosceles shaped scouts of "Various classes". Some are better looking than others, but all have the basic shape.

I ask you, do we have too many of these? Would some variance in design be in order?

 

[robject]

Yeah, they're everywhere. Even Judge's Guild, which published their own designs for the free trader, far trader, fat merchant, cruiser, et al, stuck with the good ol' Wedgie Scout.

One exception is the Serpent-class scout, which is a winged design.

Got any suggestions?

How about something like a shrunken version of the Broadsword?

Hmmm, I'll give that a try. A 1400 cu-met sphere...

1400 = 4/3 x PI x radius x radius x radius

1400 = 4.1888 x r x r x r
334 = r x r x r
r = appx 7m

Pretty cosy.

 

[sabredog]

A wee bit of cringe factor here, but they are about 20 years old:

2 scouts from MTU, both 100 tons - one a needle and the other a flattened disk.

My more current designs are a bit more interesting, but we are still talking about a lot of wedgie lifting bodies for most things that land. It's efficient as a design anyway.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, they're everywhere. Even Judge's Guild, which published their own designs for the free trader, far trader, fat merchant, cruiser, et al, stuck with the good ol' Wedgie Scout.

One exception is the Serpent-class scout, which is a winged design.

Got any suggestions?

How about something like a shrunken version of the Broadsword?

Hmmm, I'll give that a try. A 1400 cu-met sphere...

1400 = 4/3 x PI x radius x radius x radius

1400 = 4.1888 x r x r x r
334 = r x r x r
r = appx 7m

Pretty cosy.

Well, there's Crows Florian Class. A very elegant design which, to me at lest, looks like a practical reworking of that ship that was in The Phantom Menace, which itself is a loosely based off the SR-71s lines.

http://www.crowstuff.co.uk/rpg/deckplans/florian/florian.htm

Just anything, I guess. I mean airplanes resemble one another for functionality, but we're talking 57th century technology here. Surely there are variants in shapes and sizes.

 

[robject]

I also did a dart-like design 15 years ago. I'll scan them in.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I mean airplanes resemble one another for functionality, but we're talking 57th century technology here. Surely there are variants in shapes and sizes.

You're forgetting Vilani tradition: Scouts are wedge-shaped because they've *always* been wedge-shaped.

 

[Vargas]

I would expect that they are commonly wedge shaped because it's traditional based on the old Keith illustrations and because the earliest designs tended to be something the "average player" could draw by hand. Personally I wouldn't know how to effectively calculate the volume consumed by various sections of a Florian-class scout.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I would expect that they are commonly wedge shaped because it's traditional based on the old Keith illustrations and because the earliest designs tended to be something the "average player" could draw by hand. Personally I wouldn't know how to effectively calculate the volume consumed by various sections of a Florian-class scout.

You heathen :smirk: You mean like tons of other sci-fi type you can't create a synthetic equation for a Reiman sum to estimate the areas under the curves? What is this world coming to?

Seriously, yeah, the wedge is easier, but it's so ... vanilla flavored

 

[atpollard]

In Classic Traveller, a standard (wedge) 100 dT hull costs 2 MCr and any other custom hull shape costs 10 MCr. Saving 8 MCr is a heck of an incentive to buy a classic wedge.

 

[Seriayne]

Had a really neat Prt (My own race - had never heard of the Hiver region Prt' - very similar elements too, which weirded me out when I found out about them, some twenty years later >.O) hull waaaaay back in High School that was a catamaran-style hull.

Exercise I might try is making a page of like 4 different hull layouts but with the same 'game stats' - label them all Vargr variants.

 

[jatay3]

You're forgetting Vilani tradition: Scouts are wedge-shaped because they've *always* been wedge-shaped.

Well that is a fairly good reason, if there is no particular reason to change. Besides wedges are prettier.

But atmosphere travel would be a higher consideration for scouts then for many and so a lot of them would be streamlined.

 

[rancke]

In Classic Traveller, a standard (wedge) 100 dT hull costs 2 MCr and any other custom hull shape costs 10 MCr. Saving 8 MCr is a heck of an incentive to buy a classic wedge.

It's also a huge puzzle. Who in the universe is subsidizing standard 100 dT hulls to that extent? (No, economics of scale is not enough to explain an 80%saving in production costs).

Well, it almost has to be the Imperium, so the puzzle is actually 'why' rather than 'who'.

This is one of the differences between B2 and HG that I'd love to see retconned.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Sorry, Hans, but it doesn't take a subsidy... a wedge can be simply 4 or 5 slabs of metal welded together; only a box is simpler (and that because you don't need to bevel the edges).

So, a wedge or basic box is all flat-cuts plus beveled edges, and weld it all together.

And the wedge is a perfectly suitable design for forward motion...

 

[rancke]

Sorry, Hans, but it doesn't take a subsidy... a wedge can be simply 4 or 5 slabs of metal welded together; only a box is simpler (and that because you don't need to bevel the edges).

So, a wedge or basic box is all flat-cuts plus beveled edges, and weld it all together.

And the wedge is a perfectly suitable design for forward motion...

It's not the absolute cost of a wedge-shaped hull that I object to. It's the relative cost of a standard hull vs. a custom-designed hull. After all, if wedges are so cheap, why wouldn't custom designs use them too? Or, since the standard 200T hull isn't a wedge, why isn't a custom wedge-shaped 200T hull much cheaper than a standard 200T hull?

One way or the other you have a huge discrepancy.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It's not the absolute cost of a wedge-shaped hull that I object to. It's the relative cost of a standard hull vs. a custom-designed hull. After all, if wedges are so cheap, why wouldn't custom designs use them too? Or, since the standard 200T hull isn't a wedge, why isn't a custom wedge-shaped 200T hull much cheaper than a standard 200T hull?

One way or the other you have a huge discrepancy.


Hans

If you use HG, it is...

 

[rancke]

If you use HG, it is...

Since HG is far more versatile than B2, I'd prefer to use it (of the two systems, that is; HG has some flaws of its own). Anything you can do with B2 you can do with HG, but not vice versa.

The only real advantage that B2 has over HG is that it's easier to use. And that's not an insignificant consideration, to be sure. But it's a consideration for referees with limited time and a desire to design something they need for their individual campaigns. It's not really appropriate for a professional game company, whose ship designers should have the resources and expertise to do proper designs, even if they are a little more complicated.

Besides, it would be fairly easy to do a revised Book 2 type ship design system that was as easy as B2 but compatible with HG. (I started on one once, but got sidetracked half-way through). You'd have to pay 80% for your standard hulls instead of 20%, but I really see that as a feature rather than a bug.


Hans

 

[robject]

Had a really neat Prt (My own race - had never heard of the Hiver region Prt' - very similar elements too, which weirded me out when I found out about them, some twenty years later >.O) hull waaaaay back in High School that was a catamaran-style hull.

Catamaran! Now that is awesome.

Since HG is far more versatile than B2, I'd prefer to use it [...]

The only real advantage that B2 has over HG is that it's easier to use. [...]

Besides, it would be fairly easy to do a revised Book 2 type ship design system that was as easy as B2 but compatible with HG. [...]

That's similar to T5's approach. (ducks)

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, it's the math involved. Few people know how to make a synthetic equation, and then digest that expression into an integral; i.e. calculate the area under the curve for purposes of summing up the tonnage. But, wouldn't it be cool if there was some short hand for non-mathematicians so they could create "cool looking" or alternative designs? Designs that could be just as functional and inspiring to share with the rest of the Traveller public?

When I think of high performance jets and the similarity in their lines, I conjure images of things like the venerable F14 and the Panvia Tornado. Or the F15 and the SU-27 series. Passenger jets, same thing; a 737 verse an older Airbus verse an L1011. They're all the same basic shape. But each has a peculiarity about it. And Traveller being Traveller I'd like to think that more variety would exist than in the "Days of yore".

Maybe that catamaran scout has a special function that the others. Maybe there's a behemoth scout ship, or a one man version somewhere... non wedge shaped

I just think it's important to open up possibilities, and to have fun with it.

 

[rancke]

That's similar to T5's approach. (ducks)

Why duck? That sounds like a good thing. (Especially if T5 drops those absurd power plant consumption rates from HG).


Hans

 

[boomslang]

Catamaran! Now that is awesome.

And let us not forget the really groovy tri-hulled, vertical-swing-winged design David R. Deitrick whipped up for the Droyne in their CT Alien Module.

(Hey, Yaskodray! Pimp my starship, yo?)

IMTU, I prefer lifting bodies to the traditional Keith Brothers doorstops, but then most of the tech IMTU leans towards manga and anime for its styling, as an aesthetic choice.