A 500 ton is going to be made to land at a downport unless designed for a specific route where it's not needed. Just like IRL, ships don't dock in places where its dangerous. They don't carry their own craft.
Trader sizes
- Thread starter whartung
- Start date
A 500 ton is going to be made to land at a downport unless designed for a specific route where it's not needed. Just like IRL, ships don't dock in places where its dangerous. They don't carry their own craft.
Right. And for adventurers the small craft should be armed.
Grains are the one item on the CT trade chart where shipping costs are more than treble the value of the good. So, your Cr5 bag of rice is now a Cr20 bag of rice. Hydroponic and aeroponic food growth seems much more likely, especially post-fusion.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I picture the artillery piece welded onto the outside of Serenity...
In the end it all boils to "Horses For Courses". Everything mentioned in this thread is going to work, it all depends on where and when.
There are going to be megaton freighters docking with orbital structures and moving thousands of standardized containers through multiple docking ports. There are going to be megaton freighters who never even approach the worlds they visit because they drop off an pick up lighters at the jump limit. There are going to be freighters who require shuttles. There are going to be freighters that carry their own shuttles. There are going to be freighters that land and freighters that cannot land. Freighters that carry containers, freighters that can only carry certain cargo, freighters that will carry anything anyone wants.
And there are going to small freighters with small crews calling at small ports carrying small cargoes for small profits.
"Horses For Courses"
There are going to be megaton freighters docking with orbital structures and moving thousands of standardized containers through multiple docking ports. There are going to be megaton freighters who never even approach the worlds they visit because they drop off an pick up lighters at the jump limit. There are going to be freighters who require shuttles. There are going to be freighters that carry their own shuttles. There are going to be freighters that land and freighters that cannot land. Freighters that carry containers, freighters that can only carry certain cargo, freighters that will carry anything anyone wants.
And there are going to small freighters with small crews calling at small ports carrying small cargoes for small profits.
"Horses For Courses"
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
One thing to consider (I haven't read the whole thread and don't know if anyone already brought this up) is the requirement to fill to capacity. Depending on the margins involved, it is very likely the really large ship will need to be full (just like the smaller ship) in order to make revenue exceed costs. And, a FT is much quicker to fill than a huge multi-kilo-dT freighter.
If there are enough regular trade goods moving along a route, then that large freighter will be worthwhile. Otherwise, the smaller ship will haul that stuff much more quickly.
A RL situation I had several years ago:
We were in a foreign country, and one of our crew wanted to buy a piece of furniture there and send it back home*. It was too bulky to take back with us, and it was too large to ship via air (unless he paid an outrageous price - anything can be done for a price). So, we were left with shipping it via boat.
Since the furniture wasn't from a major exporter, the store had no deals with shipping companies, and the furniture would have to be loaded into a container along with everybody else's stuff - that was going to the same place. The problem was that it wouldn't ship until the container was full, and there was no guarantee that wouldn't be weeks later. And, of course, the container still wouldn't move until there were enough full containers to fill a ship.
Our crewmate opted to not buy the furniture because of this hassle, but it was instructive.
* "Home" being a small place not served by a massive port. If we had been shipping this back to the Continental US, the container would have filled much more quickly.
If there are enough regular trade goods moving along a route, then that large freighter will be worthwhile. Otherwise, the smaller ship will haul that stuff much more quickly.
A RL situation I had several years ago:
We were in a foreign country, and one of our crew wanted to buy a piece of furniture there and send it back home*. It was too bulky to take back with us, and it was too large to ship via air (unless he paid an outrageous price - anything can be done for a price). So, we were left with shipping it via boat.
Since the furniture wasn't from a major exporter, the store had no deals with shipping companies, and the furniture would have to be loaded into a container along with everybody else's stuff - that was going to the same place. The problem was that it wouldn't ship until the container was full, and there was no guarantee that wouldn't be weeks later. And, of course, the container still wouldn't move until there were enough full containers to fill a ship.
Our crewmate opted to not buy the furniture because of this hassle, but it was instructive.
* "Home" being a small place not served by a massive port. If we had been shipping this back to the Continental US, the container would have filled much more quickly.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Well, that certainly leaves out most PCs!
That would depend on how inventive they were with things like their credit score and coming up with "references".... :devil:
For the true megafreighters, I envision them as pure skeletical jump frames where "smaller" (I'd say up to 1000 dton) barges able to land could be attached. For regular routes, the jump frame just arrives to orbit and the barges dettach and land to be unloaded, while similar barges already waiting loaded in the world attach themselves to it and it's ready to go away again. That way all interface is "self contained" by the company and the loading/unloading could be done dirtside, so shortening the time the jump frame must be in orgit to th time for itself to refuel and for the barges to dock/undock.
To save in ship crew, the barges could be crewed by people in the world and make the roud trip or even be robotic (no crew at all), and each one being a self-contained boat.
Even some of them could be passenger carring, so slowing the time for passenger boarding and, if swaping jump frame, you'd be able to go a whole route in the same barge even if the barge itself has to swap frame several times along the route.
To save in ship crew, the barges could be crewed by people in the world and make the roud trip or even be robotic (no crew at all), and each one being a self-contained boat.
Even some of them could be passenger carring, so slowing the time for passenger boarding and, if swaping jump frame, you'd be able to go a whole route in the same barge even if the barge itself has to swap frame several times along the route.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
GURPS Traveller:Far Trader uses this very concept with it LASH set up - lighter aboard ship.
10,000t jump ships that can carry 15 800t cargo/passenger lighters - a lighter being a non-jump capable spaceship.
It all depends on how much trade you see between systems IYTU.
If you have thousands/millions of tons of goods to ship from world to world per week then it makes sense to build huge ships that can conduct this trade.
If you see most worlds as self sufficient then trade goods become luxury or higher tech imports, spare parts etc.
10,000t jump ships that can carry 15 800t cargo/passenger lighters - a lighter being a non-jump capable spaceship.
It all depends on how much trade you see between systems IYTU.
If you have thousands/millions of tons of goods to ship from world to world per week then it makes sense to build huge ships that can conduct this trade.
If you see most worlds as self sufficient then trade goods become luxury or higher tech imports, spare parts etc.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
First edition CT had a trade route table that used the roll of a dice and a comparison of star port types and jump distance to determine if a trade route exits between worlds.
This was dropped from later editions.
It didn't include any comparison of relative trade classifications to determine if a jump route would be more or less likely.
I have dabbled with using the trade classifications from the trade section to influence the trade route table in order to get an idea of where the large volume trade takes place.
The trade rules we do have are designed for a tramp trader carrying what's left after the big boys have shifted their stuff, and the ships sizes are designed accordingly.
In a LBB2 'verse 1000-5000t bulk carriers make sense for the large volume trade, in a big ship 'verse you design ships to carry the usual cargo/freight/passengers and these ships could be 10kt+
It all depends on something we know nothing about - actual trade volumes between worlds. The GT authors made their stuff up for the GT ATU, and every referee has to make similar decisions for TTU.
This was dropped from later editions.
It didn't include any comparison of relative trade classifications to determine if a jump route would be more or less likely.
I have dabbled with using the trade classifications from the trade section to influence the trade route table in order to get an idea of where the large volume trade takes place.
The trade rules we do have are designed for a tramp trader carrying what's left after the big boys have shifted their stuff, and the ships sizes are designed accordingly.
In a LBB2 'verse 1000-5000t bulk carriers make sense for the large volume trade, in a big ship 'verse you design ships to carry the usual cargo/freight/passengers and these ships could be 10kt+
It all depends on something we know nothing about - actual trade volumes between worlds. The GT authors made their stuff up for the GT ATU, and every referee has to make similar decisions for TTU.
Heck, we don't even have solid numbers for the movements of goods pre-1860...
Almost all reliable data available on trade is post Trans-Atlantic Cable. And from there, it rapidly falls into ship-on-demand as dominant. Yet, even into the 1950's, speculative traders in the Amazon and in Africa would buy at villages, transship via their own boats, and sell at the cities de rigueur... lack of communications results in speculation.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have some fairly solid data regarding the agricultural and some limited natural resource production from the pre-Revolution colonies circa 1770 or so if there would be in interest in it on the forum. The information for the southern colonies does include material such as naval stores.
It's not the existence of tramp merchants in the TU that I have my doubts about; it's the existence of purpose-built new tramp merchants with 40-year bank loans.
This is a case where I would welcome some historical data. Back in the days where tramps were common, were they built for such purpose or were they older ships that had started life as company vessels? And did banks loan private individuals the money to have them built?
All the tramps that I've ever heard about (mostly in fiction, so not great evidence
) were old obsolete vessels that had known better days. The closest I've come to a spick and span tramp is the S/S Campari in Alistair McLean's "The Golden Rendevouz", but that wasn't really a tramp; they just pretended it was to make it more exiting for the stinking rich passengers. Also, it was company-owned.Hans
Actually, the term "Tramp Trader" doesn't refer to the ship being old, but being used for the "Tramp Trade." And yes, there were ships purpose built for that trade. And even today some ships are being built for it.
The wiki page linked below has some References at the bottom of the page that may be of interest;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp_trade
The wiki page linked below has some References at the bottom of the page that may be of interest;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp_trade
It's not the existence of tramp merchants in the TU that I have my doubts about; it's the existence of purpose-built new tramp merchants with 40-year bank loans.
This is a case where I would welcome some historical data. Back in the days where tramps were common, were they built for such purpose or were they older ships that had started life as company vessels? And did banks loan private individuals the money to have them built?
All the tramps that I've ever heard about (mostly in fiction, so not great evidence
Hans
Everything I've seen on the pre-US Civil War trade is that the majority of it was speculation, even if on a scheduled route. Shippers purchasing at source, selling at destination.
The problem being that the data isn't so hot on what the percentages were, and when we do have good data, it's often for abnormal voyages - namely prisoner and colonist transports, in which case most of the cargo is property of the passengers, and it's often not sourced to crew, but to passenger diaries.
Schweet...
Demise Charter: The demise charter is the least used in the tramp trade because it heavily favors the owner. The ship owner only provides a ship void of any crew, stores, or fuel. It is the Charterer's responsibility to provide everything the ship will need. The ship owner must provide a seaworthy vessel, but once the charterer accepts the vessel, the responsibility of seaworthiness is the charterer's. The charterer crews the vessel, but the owner can make recommendations. There are no standardized forms in a demise charter, contracts can vary greatly, and are written up to meet the needs of the charterer.
I love ready made adventure hooks.
Quite all right. I have no problem with company-owned tramps. I was wrong in using the term as synonymous with privately-owned ship bumming around trying to make ends meet a.k.a. Free Trader. So please assume my previous question with 'privately owned tramp' replacing 'tramp'.
(And by 'privately owned' I mean owned by an individual with no collateral other than the ship itself.)
Hans
