Travel Costs?

[LeperColony]

Why does it cost the same amount to travel three parsecs as it does one? Why do you pay three times as much to travel to a system three parsecs away by taking a J1 ship as you would on a J3?

Wouldn't ship availability be pretty much directly correlated to jump capability? In other words, that jump one ships would be far more common than jump three?

 

[hunter]

The Jump-1 ship will have to pay port costs with each stop at a port, life support costs for 3 weeks of travel vs. 1 week, etc.

 

[Dragoner]

Why does it cost the same amount to travel three parsecs as it does one? Why do you pay three times as much to travel to a system three parsecs away by taking a J1 ship as you would on a J3?

Wouldn't ship availability be pretty much directly correlated to jump capability? In other words, that jump one ships would be far more common than jump three?

Look at the difference between air travel and sea travel, it would be slower and more expensive to go by sea and that isn't a cruise ship either. IMO if low berths weren't so dangerous, everyone would go low berth-high jump, during traveling.

 

[rancke]

Why does it cost the same amount to travel three parsecs as it does one? Why do you pay three times as much to travel to a system three parsecs away by taking a J1 ship as you would on a J3?

The meta-reason is that the original rules were simple, worked in the context they were originally used in (tramp freighter economics) and the writers (presumably) didn't consider the implications and ramifications.

For an in-game explanation, I've come up with one that IMO fixes most of the problems with the RAW. To wit, that High, Middle and Low Passages are not tickets, they're vouchers. I've written an article (called 'Starship Passage Vouchers') about it for JTAS Online, and a couple of weeks ago I posted a short summation on the SJG boards:

Passage vouchers

Passage vouchers are vouchers issued by various Imperial organizations to cover the cost of starship passage. The holder presents the voucher; the details, such as name, date, origin and destination world, and cost of the passage is filled in, and the holder given passage. The voucher is subsequently presented to an agent of the organization or someone authorized to redeem its vouchers, who will reimburse the shipping company.

Passage vouchers come in three standard types: A Standard Passage Voucher, or "Mid Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom. Standard vouchers were originally intended for low-ranking Imperial civil servants and military personnel. Originally issued only by Imperial ministries and organizations, the enabling Imperial Edict 318 has been amended on several occasions to allow a few civilian organizations, such as the various megacorporations and the Travellers' Aid Society, to issue their own vouchers.

A Priority Passage Voucher, or "High Passage" as it's usually known, must be accepted by any ship carrying passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a single stateroom at the highest available standard, including cargo space for up to one dT of baggage. Should the ship be fully booked, a passenger not himself holding a Priority Passage Voucher must be asked to leave the ship in order to provide room for the holder of the voucher. Priority vouchers were originally intended for high Imperial officials traveling on official business. Over time this purpose has become somewhat diluted, and by the Classic Era they are issued to people quite far down the organisatorial 'food chains' and freely traded outside the organizations. People who are planning to use them to pay for a jump-1 or jump-2 ticket will often try to sell them to someone planning to make a jump-3 or higher trip. This is technically illegal, but that rule hasn't been enforced for many centuries. The going rate tends to be around CrImp7200 for a standard voucher, CrImp9000 for a priority voucher, and CrImp900 for a low passage voucher.

A Low Passage Voucher must be accepted by any ship carrying low passengers within the length and breadth of the Imperium as full and fair payment for one standard passage of any lentgh in a low berth. Such vouchers usually add a disclaimer to the effect that the use of this voucher is entirely at the discretion of the holder and that the issuing organization is in no way liable for damages of any kind resulting from such use. Although travel in low berth is nowhere near as dangerous as numerous urban legends would have it, detrimental effects have been known to occur.

Retiring members of Imperial services are given enough passage vouchers to get back to their homeworld (or world of enlistment).

Many starships offer passage in shared (double occupancy) staterooms, usually known as "Economy Passage", but no organization issues Economy Passage vouchers.​

Wouldn't ship availability be pretty much directly correlated to jump capability? In other words, that jump one ships would be far more common than jump three?

Perhaps, but for any distance greater than one parsec, jump-2 and jump-3 is cheaper per parsec than jump-1. (A jump-2 ship costs more per jump and carries less than a jump-1 ship, but it transports its cargo across two parsecs in one jump, and two jump-1 jumps costs more than one jump-2). It doesn't make economic sense to employ jump-1 ships one longer stretches than one parsec. So logically most regular jump-1 ships will be jumping back and forth between the same two worlds all their service life. (Things may be different for old, clapped-out J1 clunkers employed by free traders).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Why does it cost the same amount to travel three parsecs as it does one? Why do you pay three times as much to travel to a system three parsecs away by taking a J1 ship as you would on a J3?

Wouldn't ship availability be pretty much directly correlated to jump capability? In other words, that jump one ships would be far more common than jump three?

In all cases, it should cost more for 1J3 than 3J1. Has to do with the breakpoints.
That said, J2 is about where the lowest cost to operate per parsec is for dedicated ships.

Taking the 400Td hull, and Bk2, designs have nothing but cargo and minimum crew in Single Occupancy Staterooms, all credit costs rounded up next whole credit:
J1: 400(H)-20(Br)-25(Dr:BBB)-16(SRNME)-40(Fj)-10(Fp)-1(C1)=288Td Cargo
__ 16(H) +2(Br)+44(Dr:BBB)+2(SR)+2(C1)=64x.9(SDisc)=57.6
MP: 240,000
Fuel: 50x500x2j=50,000
Crew: 17,000(Sal)+16000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 4800/mo
Total cost:327,800/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j1/mo 569/Td

J2:400(H)-20(Br)-41(DrBD)-20(SRNMEE)-80(Fj)-20(Fp)-1(C1b)=218
__ 16(H) +2(Br)+80(Dr:BBB)+2.5(SR)+4(C1b)=104.5x0.9(SDisc)94.05
MP: 391,875
Fuel: 100x500x2j=100,000
Crew: 21,400(Sal)+20,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 7837/mo
Total cost: 541112/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j2/mo 1242/Td (620/parsec)

J3:400(H)-20(Br)-57(Dr:FBF)-20(SRNMEE)-120(Fj)-30(Fp)-2(C2b)=151
__ 40(H) +2(Br)+116(Dr:FBF)+2.5(SR)+18(C2b)=178.5x0.9(SDisc)=160.65
Note loss of std hull discount as drives exceed standard hull drivespace
MP: 669,375
Fuel: 150x500x2j=150,000
Crew: 21,400(Sal)+20,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 13388/mo
Total cost: 874,163/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j3/mo Cr 2894/Td/J 964/Td/Pc

(Note that the prices are likely set by 1000Td ships...)

So, for comparison a 1000Td J1 hauler, same assumptions
J1: 1000(H)-20(Br)-55(Dr:EEE)-20(SRNMEE)-100(Fj)-10(Fp)-1(C1)=794
__ 100(H) +5(Br)+110(Dr:BBB)+2.5(SR)+2(C1)=219.5 x0.9(SDisc)=197.55
MP: 823,125
Fuel: 110x500x2j=110,000
Crew: 21,400(Sal)+20,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 16,463/mo
Total cost: 990,988/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j1/mo 625/Td

Check my math.

Oh, and reason for the maint 1/12: 12 of 13 months of 4 weeks making money, with no payment in month 13 but the annual maintenance due, so divide it out amongst the 12 months of work...

 

[rancke]

That said, J2 is about where the lowest cost to operate per parsec is for dedicated ships.

It depends to some extent on which ship design rules you use. However, even with the assumptions where J2 is cheaper than J3, they're close enough that the astrography is more important; J2 is cheaper acorss two parsecs and jump-3 is cheaper across three parsecs. The only time that the difference between J2 and J3 makes a difference is across distances that are divisible by both 2 and 3 AND where there are systems (fuel sources) at all necessary intermediate points.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans, I'm playing around with Bk2 numbers right now... and in 400Td they're remarkably close to each other, with increasing costs per parsec by Jn...

I've never run the Bk2 numbers before, mostly because they have to be hand cranked or use lookup tables, and due to massive crew issues that can't be explained away (the minimum 10 crew per 1000Td doesn't have a rationale, nor a pay per crewmember for those supernums)...
And I spaced and didn't realize I'd slipped an extra 0 in... edit time...

Continuing the comparison designs...
a 1000Td J2 hauler, same assumptions...
J1: 1000(H)-20(Br)-89(Dr:KBK)-24(SRNMEEE)-200(Fj)-20(Fp)-1(C1b)=646
__ 100(H) +5(Br)+188(Dr:KBK)+3(SR)+4(C1b)=300 x0.9(SDisc)=270
MP: 1,125,000
Fuel: 220x500x2j=220,000
Crew: 25,400(Sal)+24,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 22,500/mo
Total cost: 1416900/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j2/mo 1097/Td/J 549/Td/Pc/J

a 1000Td J3 hauler, same assumptions...
J1: 1000(H)-20(Br)-129(Dr:QBQ)-28(SRNM4E)-300(Fj)-30(Fp)-2(C2b)=491
__ 100(H) +5(Br)+378(Dr:QBQ)+3.5(SR)+18(C2b)=504.5 x0.9(SDisc)=454.05
MP: 1,891,875
Fuel: 330x500x2j=330,000
Crew: 29,400(Sal)+28,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 37,838/mo
Total cost: 2,317,113 /mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j3/mo 2360/Td/J 787/Td/Pc

 

[rancke]

Hans, I'm playing around with Bk2 numbers right now...

Sorry, I didn't notice.

Is Book 2 rules relevant to LeperColony's question?


Hans

 

[Tobias]

RL Travel prices don't always follow a discernable logic. For example, the last two times I went to Japan (from Germany) I booked an Air France flight via Paris. This flight was two legs, and of course it was longer than going directly from Frankfurt to Tokyo. However, it was cheaper than the direct flight. What's even more baffling is that this package deal was cheaper than just the flight from Paris to Tokyo.

By the way: This example also leads me to think that passenger and freight fares should be more flexible and fluid, by means of a simple 2d6 table similar to that for speculative trade. On this table, a DM relating to the length of the trip could certainly apply along with others. RL airline business is full of special offers and vastly different prices for the same distances.

 

[Dragoner]

RL Travel prices don't always follow a discernable logic. For example, the last two times I went to Japan (from Germany) I booked an Air France flight via Paris. This flight was two legs, and of course it was longer than going directly from Frankfurt to Tokyo. However, it was cheaper than the direct flight. What's even more baffling is that this package deal was cheaper than just the flight from Paris to Tokyo.

By the way: This example also leads me to think that passenger and freight fares should be more flexible and fluid, by means of a simple 2d6 table similar to that for speculative trade. On this table, a DM relating to the length of the trip could certainly apply along with others. RL airline business is full of special offers and vastly different prices for the same distances.

It is about the use of routes, I know it was $500 cheaper to fly into Munich, rather than Salzburg last year; always has been, however. But even though there are subsidized merchants, there are not the routes by which they travel, more stuff for the GM to fill in.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

With regards to real life prices not always making sense, back when I was in college me and a friend both had an internship up near Seattle starting in January. I flew home to be with my family in Texas while he went to be with his family in New Jersey. When making plans to get to Seattle he bought a ticket that went from JFK through DFW airport to Seattle, but when I enquired about getting a ticket on the same flight but starting in DFW, the price quoted me was actually almost about twice the cost of his ticket from JFK through DFW to Seattle (if I am recalling correctly).

As such, whenever playing a game, I tend to try and not get too wrapped up in whether I think everything makes sense to me.

Pat

 

[aramis]

Sorry, I didn't notice.

Is Book 2 rules relevant to LeperColony's question?


Hans

Yes, because he's asking about a "historical artifact" of the game - the reason the prices are fixed as they are.

I'll note that, using unrefined fuel, a 1000Td hauler can make money at Cr1000/ton on a J1 run - but only just barely, as it costs Cr945 per ton (646 tons cargo) - but it can't beat the short haulers for ton/parsec, and it can't profit at Cr1000/ton for J2. Losing 5 tons for a weapon to make 15 tons more gross income by mail carriage (lose 1t for the turret and 4 for the stateroom for the gunner; lose 5 more tons @1000/T to gain 5T@5000 each, so lose 10K to make 25), but adding MCr1.2 to the price and a further expense of 11100 (5,100 additional payment and maintenance share, 2000 in gunner salary, and 4000 in LS...)... that only adds Cr3900 per jump, or about a net gain of Cr6/Td in profit overall.

And, since I need it for intellectual honesty, the TL9 Bk2 800Td J1 hauler, same assumptions...
J1: 800(H)-20(Br)-45(DrDD)-20(SRNMEE)-80(Fj)-10(Fp)-1(C1)=624
__ 80(H) +4(Br)+88(DrDD)+2.5(SR)+2(C1)=176.5 x0.9(SDisc)=158.85
MP: 661,875
Fuel: 90x500x2j=90,000
Crew: 21,400(Sal)+20,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 13,238/mo
Total cost: 806513/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j1/mo 647/Td/J 647/Td/Pc

J2: 800(H)-20(Br)-77(Dr:HDH)-24(SRNMEEE)-160(Fj)-20(Fp)-1(C1b)=498
__ 80(H) +4(Br)+160(Dr:HDH)+3(SR)+4(C1b)=251 x0.9(SDisc)=225.9
MP: 941250
Fuel: 180x500x2j=180,000
Crew: 25,400(Sal)+24,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 18,825/mo
Total cost: 1,140,075/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j1/mo 1145/Td/J 573/Td/Pc
CT-77 version: Dr HDD MCr196.65 Cg524Td PNMEE MoOp1,047,163 Cr1000/Td/J 500/Td/Pc

J3: 800(H)-20(Br)-109(Dr:MDM)-28(SRNM4E)-240(Fj)-30(Fp)-2(C2b)=391
__ 80(H) +4(Br)+232(Dr:HDH)+3.5(SR)+18(C2b)=337 x0.9(SDisc)=303.75
MP: 1,265,625
Fuel: 270x500x2j=270,000
Crew: 29,400(Sal)+28,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 25,313/mo
Total cost: 1,618,338/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j3/mo 2070/Td/J 690/Td/Pc/J

And, while I'm at it...
A 200 Td pure cargo design
J1: 200(H)-20(Br)-15(Dr:AAA)-12(SRNE)-20(Fj)-10(Fp)-1(C1)=122
__ 8(H) +1(Br)+22(Dr:AAA)+1.5(SR)+2(C1)=34.5 x0.9(SDisc)=31.08
MP: 129375
Fuel: 30x500x2j=30,000
Crew: 12,000(Sal)+12,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 2,590/mo
Total cost: 185965/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j3/mo 763/Td/J 763/Td/Pc

J2: 200(H)-20(Br)-23(Dr:BAB)-12(SRME)-40(Fj)-20(Fp)-1(C1b)=104
__ 8(H) +1(Br)+40(Dr:BAB)+1.5(SR)+4(C1b)=54.5 x0.9(SDisc)=49.05
MP: 204375
Fuel: 60x500x2j=60,000
Crew: 12,000(Sal)+12,000(LS)
1/12 Maint: 4,088/mo
Total cost: 292463/mo
Cost per ton per jump @ 2j3/mo 1407/Td/J 704/Td/Pc
1977 rules version Dr BAA MCr41.85 Cg117Td MoOp251,863 1077/Td/J 538Td/Pc


The Bk2/3 cargo pricing is clearly enough based upon Bk2 designs
Here's why:
1) Bk5 wasn't on the horizon for a year when CT was released - it was announced in late summer of 1979. Prices were set then.
2) Bk5 wasn't integrated into later printings of CT
3) the numbers work beautifully for CT Bk2 designs at 200Td+ for J1
3.1) treating those numbers as flat rate per parsec for J2+ works well
3.2) unrefined fuel will make Cr1000 per jump workable for J2 freighters under CT-77 - slim profits, but workable.
4) The general lack of rigor in both future prediction and number crunching in CT... Marc Et Al clearly set the price point so that it was fairly profitable - HG price points being significantly different, the higher jump ranges are less proportionate expense.

 

[rancke]

Yes, because he's asking about a "historical artifact" of the game - the reason the prices are fixed as they are.

He was? I thought he was asking why things were as they are nowadays, not 30-odd years ago.


Hans

 

[aramis]

He was? I thought he was asking why things were as they are nowadays, not 30-odd years ago.


Hans

Cargo rates in Traveller ARE a historical artifact... they work (surprisingly well) for BK2-'77 pure cargo designs, but not for bk5. Inertia.