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Twilight 2033 Tech

29 years of miltech from now and allow for a build up of hostilities to realy expand the research budgets.

Infantry, heavy. Good class body armour, probably exo suit of some form and heavy weapons. Some assualt units in full body armour mostly for static use. Paramilitary siege breakers in full body class 4 armour etc. Heavy use of electronic force multipliers.
Infantry, line. A fully functioning version or the land warrior.

Mech units. Wheeled APCs and light fighting units are great for racing up and down roads but once you get into the truely bad stuff tracks go futher. Urban warfare units mostly wheeled and fast, 20-50mm cannon and missiles plus a fair ECM set on a lightly armoured hull. Budget run downs will lead to more wheels and less tracks, once people start rattling the WMD then tracks will be back as forces build back up for war.
Heavy units with very heavy composite hulls and active hull defences, enough ECM and point defence to stand in for an Aegis class, main weapon hyper velocity cannon either electrotherm or gauss running off either a very early fussion, a mass of cells or a tiny nuke plant. Backup weapons include missiles for indirect and cannon for light targets and infantry.
KE missiles should be small enough to be squad support level or at least in hunter/killer groups on small vehicles.
Lasers will be viable in area defence but unless we get a real power generation break through they are not going to be offensive weapons for a while yet.
Close air support is going to be drones, nothing crewed should be anywhere over the battlefield except for transport and medical who will be flying grass level and as far back as possible.
Aircraft are going to be strategic rather than tactical, heavy bomber types going in behind a wave of drone fighters and launching over the horizon missile salvos.
With current research into ultra fast engines and reusable space vehicles by 2033 Aerospace is going to mean just that with craft launching from home, going low orbital, hitting the target and flying home all in a few hours.
Drones are going to be everywhere, following squads on patrol with spare ammo/supplies etc or as part of the patrol carrying heavy weapons fired/overseen by an operator in the squad. Robots standing guard scanning IFF types on every vehicle and soldier that passes or sitting along the front lines sniping at enemy units.

At the low tech end of the fighting its going to be much as it is now, at the hi tech end we may well see more bots than men doing the fighting and we may not even see that as advanced sensors and over the hill (or through the hill) weapons proliferate.
 
IIRC the main problem with the Sheridan was the massive recoil of the HEAT round. Every time you fired one the Shilleliegh missiles broke. Not a problem a vismod would see.

As for the 120mm the LOSAT puts it in the shade. The C-KEM missile is a smaller weapon that duplcates the 120mm "Silver bullet" in a Mach-6 guided missile that can be fired from any TOW launcher.
 
We really need to be looking at the US Army's Future Combat System, scheduled to be operational in 2010. You can download Boeing's FCS Architecture Briefing Here- 7 MB pdf or Here- 3 MB Zipped PDF

Army Project Management Office
United Defense site Hybrid power supply, robotics, hi-tech tracks etc.
Globalsecurity.org

General Dynamics Land Systems has released some info on the manned vehicles. They haven't made up their mind on whether it will be wheeled or tracked, but I vote tracks.
http://www.gdls.com/programs/fcs.html
The thumbnails connect to 800x512 pictures
And a poster that shows them all at once
http://www.gdls.com/images/poster_02.gif
The integrated design team of General Dynamics and United Defense has responsibility for manned ground vehicles before the Systems Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase, during SDD and in the Low Rate Initial Production phase. General Dynamics is leading the manned ground vehicle common design development with United Defense, Lead Systems Integrator and U.S. government participation. General Dynamics also has leadership of the Mounted Combat System [formerly the Line-of-Sight/Beyond-Line-of-Sight System], the Reconnaissance & Surveillance Vehicle, and the Command and Control Vehicle designs. Our teammate, United Defense, has leadership responsibility for the Infantry Carrier Vehicle, the FCS Recovery & Maintenance Vehicle, the Medical Vehicle, the Non-Line-of-Sight-Cannon, and the Non-Line-of-Sight-Mortar designs.
This is the Infantry Carrier Vehicle
icv_final_1.jpg
 
A non line of sight cannon means the shell has a timed fuse set to explode at a certain distance from the cannon muzzel. The software knows how fast the shell is going to be moving so it allows a certian amount of time to elapse and then explodes after reaching a certain distance, killing soldiers that are hiding behind certain obstacles and who perhaps think they are safe, hence non-line-of-sight. There is a certain combo assault rifle/grenadem launcher that also has that capability.
 
Tom, in this case NLOS means "howitzer". You are describing a mechanical time fuse which has been an option for artillery shells for over 100 years (200 if you include burning fuses).

Besides shells with time fuse, proximity fuze, superquick and delayed fuses, NLOS will also launch submunitions and homing shells.

PBI, I hope you meant, "The same thing was said of horses," since the Cavalry is sill with us.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:

PBI, I hope you meant, "The same thing was said of horses," since the Cavalry is sill with us.
Of course I did
It's debatable as to whether cavalry still exists, even though there are units designated as such. To me, the term "cavalry" conjures up images of charging home on horse and taking the fight directly to the enemy. I'm not certain the armour units of today really qualify as cavalry, though they do fulfill much the same function as true cavalry.
 
Yeah. But to me "Infantry" calls up the troops of the Spanish infanta, going in with pikes. Todays skirmishing riflemen have no moreto do with "infantry" then a tank has to do with medieval horsemen.
 
I would say thatwhen technology allows a man to carry plasma weapons and wear powered armor there will be no need for tanks, missles, or cavalry.

again I owe this opinion to reading SST when i was a kid but i think it holds true even in CT. no need for armor if battle dress troops can be dropped directly to the target, carry enough firepower to vaporize a small building, and are immune to most light weapons.
 
Well, we won't have plasma guns in 2033.

But powerarmor scouting on a gravbike would be cavalry. And a grav vehicle can be armored to defeat any man portable weapon and carry a rapid fire fusion gun that can slaughter a platoon of M.I.

Voila, the tank. RAH never thought the M.I. would be alone out there.
 
possibly so.. my thoughts are thus.
once the navy has control of the near space around a planet fighters would be used to clear the sky of any enemy and MI would be dropped to actually claim urban areas and bases.

in this sort of engagement a tank is nothing more than a big target that could probably be hit from orbit by ship mounted lasers or by ground attack fighters while the MI would theoritically be too small for ship/satalite/fighter sensors to lock on to.

I draw part of this from my time in Iraq, with our dominance of the air the iraqi armor was nothing more then soviet made coffins while we had to actually root the infantry out of the bunkers and buildings..

I figure in a 3rd Imp setting artillary and close air support would be handled by the fleet in orbit. as for grav bikes that would be cool for light troops/scouts but i dont think a 10ton MI suit would fit on one nor would it need one since it can trundle along at a good clip and has a grav pack for short assisted jumps.

with its arm mounted pulse laser<RaH has a hMG>, plasmagun<RaH has a flamethrower> and back mount missle launcher<RaH has a morter capable of firing atomic shells> it would be more than a match for anything but one of its own. figure a few of the hypervelcoty missles we were talking about on the other thread...BOOM!! dead tank.

at least thats how i think it would go down
 
RAH had a "flamer", not a flamethrower. He used it in other books (Between Planets?) where it is a shortranged energy weapon good for anti-personel as well as starting fires. This was years before the laser was invented, so I guess a low-powered plasma gun is about right. I don't remember the HMG, but they did have backpack grenade dispensers and rocket launchers (really fire-and-forget guided missiles) with Ass't Section Leaders having nukes.

Given the same technology a grav powered "egg" can be more heavily armored and armed than an anthropomorphic suit with its complex shape need for motors and actuators. The "egg"/cav mount is no bigger a target. The minitank wins.

But this still has little to do with Twilight 2033. They will not have powersuits, grav, or plasmaweapons.
 
Drifting away from 2033 a bit here all :)

For those who haven't checked it look at the .pdf one page back as this reflects what the people doing the research ex[ect to be doable over the next 10-15 years.

Re Power Armour, its almost doable now. Only real problems are the control interface and the battery life. Darpa have an exoskeleton research project tucked away in a back lab playing with these as we speak.

NLOS/over the hill. Seed the area ahead of you with micro sensors to detect troop movements (they starting doing this in the late 1960s). Then the stealth/ECM of the enemy compete with your sensors, if the Infantry systems win they are undetected and go about thier mission. If they are detected the contact is passed to a support battery 100+ miles to the rear. They use 200mm plus tubes to fire shells which then engage microjets. Hybrid shell/missiles fly to target using preprogramed target data then peform an area attack over the targets detected location.
Firing battery is moved to another location.
Area controler goes back to watching his sensor and drone control screens and notes that the area needs another sensor drop.
2033 will not have major fighting anywhere except on earth. Marines may be fighting on the orbitals but the war as such is going to be down here.

MBTs are getting smaller and far more stealthy, the current future battletanks have 3 man crews not 4 and the crew are tucked up in the hulls. Unless someone makes a breakthrough that wildly upsets the balance between attack/defence then their is still going to be viable (IE survivable) ways of armouring combat units. Materials research underway now will (if they come to pass as predicted) swing things back towards defence in the next 10 years. At the present we are pushing into the attack high part of this cycle.
10 years ago missiles could not penetrate modern MBT main armour hence top attacks and such like. Now we have missiles in development that will go through MBT front armour and very high velocity cannon and ammunition that will penetrate anything except the front armour of a grand total of two types of tank.
Whatever they may be armed with, cannon/KEmissile/Laser etc the role of an MBT is to be a survivable weapons platform for combat use. That isn't going to change in the near future or even the far future using the tech we can foresee now.

As I mentioned earlier it is going to be in the field of drones/bots/uavs that things are most going to change. For those who missed it thier was a competition not so long ago to design and build a bot capable of driving itself across a long distance and varied landscape. None of the entries made it but it is impresive to see what was achieved, and this was a public even with none of the classified military stuff involved. In 10 years time the robots should be finishing easily, in 15 they should be able to get there and back and pick out a few targets as they go.
A 2033 combat vehicle may have a single human as commander with a bot driver and bot gunners and autoreactive ECM and countermeasures/point defence.
You may well have squad level transport vehicles without crew. One of the squad runs it while aboard then when the squad move off on foot they can leave it to move to another location and defend itself if attacked.
 
Tom, in this case NLOS means "howitzer". You are describing a mechanical time fuse which has been an option for artillery shells for over 100 years (200 if you include burning fuses).
But before a person had to estimate the distance and set the time fuse manually. The newer weapons have a laser range finder that computes the distance of the obstacle and the soldier detemines how much farther than that the round will explode.

Uncle Bob said,
Well, we won't have plasma guns in 2033.
We have a plasma gun now, its called a flame thrower. Those glowing flames you see in your fireplace are technically a plasma.

Uncle Bod said,
But powerarmor scouting on a gravbike would be cavalry. And a grav vehicle can be armored to defeat any man portable weapon and carry a rapid fire fusion gun that can slaughter a platoon of M.I.
Or a mechanical horse robot with metal hooves and legs that a soldier with a machinegun and flak jacket sits on, could be called cavalry. I believe the technology for building 4 legged mechanical horses is just about here. Try proposing this to the Pentagon and you'll be a laughingstock.

In a number of areas, I'll start with the grav bike. First it is a bike, the soldier sits on top of it with his legs wrapped around it in plain sight of the enemy, that is why he needs to wear powered armor. Making the bike fly is not a real problem, while grav technology is not available, we could use ducted fans as Mollier has done for his Sky Car, since it is a bike, this version of the skycar will be long and narrow so the soldier can wrap his legs around it. Unlike a real bike, a skybike won't have gyroscopic stability as their are no wheels underneath, instead it will need a pair of ducted fans to keep the soldier on top of the bike and not hanging upsidedown on the bottom. A fusion gun would be hard to build and if built, it will certainly not be man-portable, it will probably take the form of a fusion bomb fired out of a cannon.
 
One wild card I'd like to throw out here is the idea of mechanical soldiers. In typical Sci Fi horror, these things go berserk and human soldiers have to fight them as they have taken to defining the "enemy" rather broadly and it considers just about any human being as the "Enemy". Perhaps World War III could degenerate into a war of Man vs Robot, is this too fantastic for Twlilight 2033? The future is unpredictable, so a decision has to be made as to how futuristic this future will be. If we are too conservative, then future generations of gamers will wonder about the obsolete weapons systems, if too futuristic then it will look like "Buck Rogers". I think no grav vehicles, and if something flies, it has to use known physics. True AI systems is a 50/50 proposition, we may have them by 2033 and they may be harder to build than we think. Autonomous vehicles are certainly possible and don't require human level intelligence. The ability to determine friend from foe requires a bit more intelligence, it should be well within our capability to build autonomous vehicles that shoot at anything that moves.
 
All of these things are very interesting. I'd love to play a game, RPG or wargame, with thses units ;)

Tom's question about how futuristic Twlight should be kind of crystalized things for me, though. What I loved about the original Twilight 2000, be it 1.0, 2.0, or 2.2, was the plausible near-history feel of the game. When I was playing 2.0, even though the USSR and Warsaw Pact had effectively gone, the game still had that sense of "now" to it, in that it was very hard to pick out the changes in the history the farther back it went, the "current" history was similar enough that I could accept the changes (as well as the obvious things like not wishing to risk law suits from real politicians and the like) and when the game moved into the near-future part of "history", I hardly had to use my imagination at all. I felt a real connection to the "history" the game was based on, something that I fear won't quite be the case when we go too far afield.

Instead of 2033, I'd like to see 2010.
 
/me cue 2001 soundtrack ala MST3K

A monolith showing up in France* in 2010 might well explain a few things about 2300AD...

/me runs

IMO a 2010 setting runs the risk of being outdated far too quickly if you are going to update the timeline to current trends. As a comparison the 2002 released Transhuman Space suggests 2030 as a early campaign date (main setting time is 2100).

Perhaps 2020? (okay I watched the Silent Mobius trailers too much back in the day)

Casey

* of course one would wonder why that particular branch of the Ancients would have shown up in France; this leads credence that some Ancients resembled Invader Zim
 
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