Type-S conversons for CT
- Thread starter Glen Allen Mcinnes
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which begs the question, has anyone ever produced a comparison (table would be good
) of the Type S Scout/Courier designed under the various versions of Traveller?
) of the Type S Scout/Courier designed under the various versions of Traveller?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My gearheadedness runs the other way, I try to recreate the original LBB2 Type S (and others) as faithfully as possible in each new incarnation. Sorry, all my attempts aren't archived handily.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Too bad the damn thing costs twice as much as a type S.
Why IMTU it was never adopted and the few prototypes were evaluated and some let go as surplus. (Ooops surprise!)
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Bhoins, using HG is cheating
Nice design though
The discussion so far has got us here at DURKIN SHIPYARDS working...
With pride we announce the Scorpion Class Scout
The Scorpion Class, Type "S" scout Courier variant.
SGZ-111247R1-A0000-05000-0 MCr76.75 100tons
Batt. 1 TL15
Bearing 1 Crew 2 (min)
Cargo = 1, Fuel=27, EP=7, Agil=4, no ship's vehicle.
Tonnage: 100 Tons
Crew: 1 minimum, 2 (Pilot/Gunner) recommended,
4 (pilot/Co-pilot/Gunner/Engineer) ideally
Performance: Jump-2,4-G, Power Plant-7, 7 EP, Agility 4
Electronics: Model 3 computer with fiber-optic backup
Standard (i.e. extensive and superior to civilian)
Scout/Courier electronics.
Hardpoints: 1
Armament: A single Fusion Gun turret (Factor 5)
Defenses: Armoured hull (Factor 10)
Craft: Nil
Fuel Treatment: Fuel scoops and onboard fuel purification equipment
Cost: MCr 95.93 standard. MCr 76.744 in quantity
Comments: This variant of the scout courier is currently entering
field trials at the Durkin Shipyards proving grounds. It is hoped that the
IISS will acquire these vessels to provide cover for scout ships operating
in hostile areas. The IN has also expressed an interest in the ship as a
Q-ship.
Although strictly a attrition unit in fleet actions, and despite the range
limitations of the fusion gun weaponry; The Scorpion is more than capable of handling itself in one-on-one duels. Relying on its agility and armoured hull the ship is tough and nimble. In simulations, the ship actually disabled a 400 ton VP type Vargr Corsair, in less than an hour.
From the outside the ship is, by design, identical to the standard scout/
courier. It is hoped that this would add to the ship's main advantage; it's
ability to surprise an attacker who thinks that is "only a scout".
The interior layout too, is also quite similar to the standard Type "S"
scout, however with some inevitable changes. The most notable of these is the fact that two of the 4 staterooms have been removed, an a general
expansion of the engineering spaces forward. Since it has only two
staterooms, at optimal crew levels, the 4 person crew will be in close
confines. The one ton locker (the upper cargo bay on the standard scout)
allows over a year's worth of life support consumables to be stored with
ample space for crew baggage and other ship's equipment. It is also here
that the emergency low-berth is located.
Four crew stations are provided on the bridge, allowing the ship to be
operated entirely from there. This includes the gunner, operating the single
fusion gun turret remotely from their station behind the pilot's couch.
A particle accelerator barbette was considered for the ship's armament, however the power and space requirements were too great. Furthermore, despite the punch of a PA, the fire control was substantially less effective than it was for the fusion gun. Also the sheer size of the PA Barbette, made for a slight, but recognizable, sensor profile difference between it and the standard scout. The Scorpion, as presented here, did not have that problem. Only the increased output from the power plant, and the increased signature from the thrusters when seen stern on, betrayed the ship's nature. In the simulations run so far however, by the time these tell-tales are seen, the battle had already begun.
Davad,
With pride we announce the Scorpion Class Scout
The Scorpion Class, Type "S" scout Courier variant.
SGZ-111247R1-A0000-05000-0 MCr76.75 100tons
Batt. 1 TL15
Bearing 1 Crew 2 (min)
Cargo = 1, Fuel=27, EP=7, Agil=4, no ship's vehicle.
Tonnage: 100 Tons
Crew: 1 minimum, 2 (Pilot/Gunner) recommended,
4 (pilot/Co-pilot/Gunner/Engineer) ideally
Performance: Jump-2,4-G, Power Plant-7, 7 EP, Agility 4
Electronics: Model 3 computer with fiber-optic backup
Standard (i.e. extensive and superior to civilian)
Scout/Courier electronics.
Hardpoints: 1
Armament: A single Fusion Gun turret (Factor 5)
Defenses: Armoured hull (Factor 10)
Craft: Nil
Fuel Treatment: Fuel scoops and onboard fuel purification equipment
Cost: MCr 95.93 standard. MCr 76.744 in quantity
Comments: This variant of the scout courier is currently entering
field trials at the Durkin Shipyards proving grounds. It is hoped that the
IISS will acquire these vessels to provide cover for scout ships operating
in hostile areas. The IN has also expressed an interest in the ship as a
Q-ship.
Although strictly a attrition unit in fleet actions, and despite the range
limitations of the fusion gun weaponry; The Scorpion is more than capable of handling itself in one-on-one duels. Relying on its agility and armoured hull the ship is tough and nimble. In simulations, the ship actually disabled a 400 ton VP type Vargr Corsair, in less than an hour.
From the outside the ship is, by design, identical to the standard scout/
courier. It is hoped that this would add to the ship's main advantage; it's
ability to surprise an attacker who thinks that is "only a scout".
The interior layout too, is also quite similar to the standard Type "S"
scout, however with some inevitable changes. The most notable of these is the fact that two of the 4 staterooms have been removed, an a general
expansion of the engineering spaces forward. Since it has only two
staterooms, at optimal crew levels, the 4 person crew will be in close
confines. The one ton locker (the upper cargo bay on the standard scout)
allows over a year's worth of life support consumables to be stored with
ample space for crew baggage and other ship's equipment. It is also here
that the emergency low-berth is located.
Four crew stations are provided on the bridge, allowing the ship to be
operated entirely from there. This includes the gunner, operating the single
fusion gun turret remotely from their station behind the pilot's couch.
A particle accelerator barbette was considered for the ship's armament, however the power and space requirements were too great. Furthermore, despite the punch of a PA, the fire control was substantially less effective than it was for the fusion gun. Also the sheer size of the PA Barbette, made for a slight, but recognizable, sensor profile difference between it and the standard scout. The Scorpion, as presented here, did not have that problem. Only the increased output from the power plant, and the increased signature from the thrusters when seen stern on, betrayed the ship's nature. In the simulations run so far however, by the time these tell-tales are seen, the battle had already begun.
Davad,
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Scorpion Class Scout: Yikes three times the cost of a Scout! And I thought the IISS would balk at twice the cost with a little more useful load. This may look like a Scout but it definitely isn't one. I think the appropiate ship class in this case is Big Slow Jump Fighter. Perhaps the Me-110 class.
I like it though, I guess I'll have to steal it. (Perhaps with a little less armor and a bit more speed/agility...Hmmmm)
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Last I checked LBB5 is still CT.
I'm using the standard hull, HG says you can use Book-2 engines in book 5 designs, as long as you use Book 2 fuel. I simply applied the reverse used Book 5 engines and fuel rules in a Book 2 design, then found all this free space. (Basically the same reason the Type-S has 20 tons of Cargo in T20.) The deck plans are actually the same ones in Supp-7 with the Cargo bay extended slightly and to keep it's nature secret a panel concealing the back half of the cargo bay, the area aft of the gunner's chair is walled off and taken up by drives. The new computer, and fuel purification plant taking up space in what used to be fuel tanks, the computer just extended into the fuel tank, the purification plant in attached to the scoops in the fuel tank. And Viola we have deck plans for it as well.
Speaking of the T20 design, given the fact that sensors performance is related to computer model number does anyone else find it strange that the "Scout/Courier" in T20 has the weakest sensors available? (Oh they were stripped out and replaced by this model 1bis suite.) Before you go that route then the 40+ year old power plant, required to power the better computer and the laser/lasers (no magazine for missile armament either) was replaced by a new, low powered one? Oh and all the bulkheads and walls were rearranged for these changes? Pull the computer out but put 3 tons of the cargo hold in the computer room and put more of the cargo hold in the fuel tanks and the engine room.
Not the nice big open 20 contigous ton cargo hold in the plans.
Speaking of the T20 design, given the fact that sensors performance is related to computer model number does anyone else find it strange that the "Scout/Courier" in T20 has the weakest sensors available? (Oh they were stripped out and replaced by this model 1bis suite.) Before you go that route then the 40+ year old power plant, required to power the better computer and the laser/lasers (no magazine for missile armament either) was replaced by a new, low powered one? Oh and all the bulkheads and walls were rearranged for these changes? Pull the computer out but put 3 tons of the cargo hold in the computer room and put more of the cargo hold in the fuel tanks and the engine room.
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Bhoins, using HG is cheating
Nice design though
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
If you are going to do that then use #2 HG power plant (TL11), 2t of power plant fuel, and jump drive (J2, TL11).
Keep the Maneuver A drive from Book 2.
You now have 24t of extra space to fill as you see fit
It'll cost an extra 12MCr mind you...
Keep the Maneuver A drive from Book 2.
You now have 24t of extra space to fill as you see fit
It'll cost an extra 12MCr mind you...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
We interrupt this thread for a brief hijack...
As for HG and CT well I feel there's CT (LBB 1-3) and then there's CT+ (all the other LBB's). Kind of a purist thing but you're right, the topic title says CT so HG should be valid, which does allow more room for adjustments. There's not too many ways you can remake the Book 2 type S after you've done a type J. The biggest limits being the standard hull requirement of maxing the engineering into the 15 tons allowed and the powerplant fuel rule.
Agreed Bhoins, you and others might have missed my earlier INSIDE Report where I brought up similiar ideas.Originally posted by Bhoins:
Speaking of the T20 design, given the fact that sensors performance is related to computer model number does anyone else find it strange that the "Scout/Courier" in T20 has the weakest sensors available? (Oh they were stripped out and replaced by this model 1bis suite.) Before you go that route then the 40+ year old power plant, required to power the better computer and the laser/lasers (no magazine for missile armament either) was replaced by a new, low powered one? Oh and all the bulkheads and walls were rearranged for these changes? Pull the computer out but put 3 tons of the cargo hold in the computer room and put more of the cargo hold in the fuel tanks and the engine room.Not the nice big open 20 contigous ton cargo hold in the plans.
As for HG and CT well I feel there's CT (LBB 1-3) and then there's CT+ (all the other LBB's). Kind of a purist thing but you're right, the topic title says CT so HG should be valid, which does allow more room for adjustments. There's not too many ways you can remake the Book 2 type S after you've done a type J. The biggest limits being the standard hull requirement of maxing the engineering into the 15 tons allowed and the powerplant fuel rule.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I'm pretty sure the HG statement about using Book 2 drives was an all or none deal. No mixing. I could be misremembering it though.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If you are going to do that then use #2 HG power plant (TL11), 2t of power plant fuel, and jump drive (J2, TL11).
Keep the Maneuver A drive from Book 2.
You now have 24t of extra space to fill as you see fit
It'll cost an extra 12MCr mind you...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It doesn't state explicitly that you can't mix them
By the way, HG 1st edition doesn't mention using book 2 drives at all.
But I would usually rule you either use HG or you use Book 2, since HG is a totally different ship paradigm from Book 2 (and the drive masses are the wrong way round ). OK, there are lots of similarities, but there are some prety fundamental differences as well (such as the one already mentioned ).
As an aside, the first edition of High Guard ship building rules are closer to the Book 2 paradigm in that there are no EPs to worry about, and the power plant number only has to match the jump or maneuver drive number, whichever is higher.
No need to worry about powering weapons or providing agility, hence capital ships could be smaller than in second edition High Guard.
By the way, HG 1st edition doesn't mention using book 2 drives at all.
But I would usually rule you either use HG or you use Book 2, since HG is a totally different ship paradigm from Book 2 (and the drive masses are the wrong way round
). OK, there are lots of similarities, but there are some prety fundamental differences as well (such as the one already mentioned ).As an aside, the first edition of High Guard ship building rules are closer to the Book 2 paradigm in that there are no EPs to worry about, and the power plant number only has to match the jump or maneuver drive number, whichever is higher.
No need to worry about powering weapons or providing agility, hence capital ships could be smaller than in second edition High Guard.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I seem to remember it being all or nothing too. (I just moved and haven't unpacked the LBBs yet.)
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ah, interesting, must have been an interpretation for sanity. The book (HG ed.2) says it "is possible to include standard drives (at standard prices) from Book 2" and they "use fuel as indicated in Book 2". So it seems you could mix and match.
There are of course problems if you mix and match.
First Book 2 designs once in production get a 10% discount while HG designs get a 20% discount. And of course the prices are different, so that may balance out some in the end.
Also Book 2 designs (and HG ed.1) Jump drives use all the fuel regardless of the actual Jump, unless you add the Jump governor from HG ed.1, kind of breaks the CT type J models, I don't recall anyone adding the Jump governor. Which is probably because the HG ed.2 Jump fuel rules superseded and retroactively "corrected" the CT rule, at least unofficially.
My interpretation has always been that Book 2 drives are more primitive. No Jump governor except as an option but also no power plant required like in the original xboats. Reaction based thrusters tied to the power plant and hence the huge fuel requirement and possible use as a torch. HG drives on the other hand are more advanced. Jump drives with governors built in but requiring power plants. Efficient grav based thrusters needing only power to operate and so reducing the fuel required for the power plant substantially. Different tech, same job. Mixing and matching is not possible, too incompatible.
There are of course problems if you mix and match.
First Book 2 designs once in production get a 10% discount while HG designs get a 20% discount. And of course the prices are different, so that may balance out some in the end.
Also Book 2 designs (and HG ed.1) Jump drives use all the fuel regardless of the actual Jump, unless you add the Jump governor from HG ed.1, kind of breaks the CT type J models, I don't recall anyone adding the Jump governor. Which is probably because the HG ed.2 Jump fuel rules superseded and retroactively "corrected" the CT rule, at least unofficially.
My interpretation has always been that Book 2 drives are more primitive. No Jump governor except as an option but also no power plant required like in the original xboats. Reaction based thrusters tied to the power plant and hence the huge fuel requirement and possible use as a torch. HG drives on the other hand are more advanced. Jump drives with governors built in but requiring power plants. Efficient grav based thrusters needing only power to operate and so reducing the fuel required for the power plant substantially. Different tech, same job. Mixing and matching is not possible, too incompatible.
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
I would generally agree with this, but the part about Book 2 Maneuver drives requiring more fuel only applies to the smaller ships. The equivalent of a factor-6 powerplant (a plant capable of running a 6-G Maneuver drive) requires 60 tons of fuel in a Book 2 design no matter how big the ship is; 100 tons or 5000 tons, it's still only 60 tons of fuel. A HG design at 5000 dtons with a f-6 powerplant would need 300 dtons of fuel.
I've changed this IMTU, it gives the smaller Book 2 ships a little space back, and the bigger Book 2 ships lose a little payload.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yeah, that part always bugged me a little, even after dismissing it as a scale efficiency
This little ship just keeps getting pulled farther and farther off course, er, topic
Still related and interesting though.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Don't forget that CT TL9 jump drives are capable of up to jump 6, depending on the size of the ship
I don't think you could build one under 1st edition Book 2 rules because there's no room for the crew - unless you allow drop tanks
A 200t TL9 jump 4 maneuver 4 can be constructed under either edition of book 2
Yet another paradigm shift when you move to HG
I don't think you could build one under 1st edition Book 2 rules because there's no room for the crew - unless you allow drop tanks
A 200t TL9 jump 4 maneuver 4 can be constructed under either edition of book 2
Yet another paradigm shift when you move to HG
fredofmars
SOC-12
My take on B2 drives is that they are really TL15 designs that are ruthlessly optimized and simplified so types A-D drives can be made at TL9. Thus the B2 drives are relevant to the 3I and its favored client states, but would not be generally available outside the 3I. In addition to this, they are mass-produced (in a sense) whereas HG drives are specifically designed for the particular line of ships.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Don't forget that CT TL9 jump drives are capable of up to jump 6, depending on the size of the ship
I don't think you could build one under 1st edition Book 2 rules because there's no room for the crew - unless you allow drop tanks
A 200t TL9 jump 4 maneuver 4 can be constructed under either edition of book 2
Yet another paradigm shift when you move to HG
- Joseph
If one is willing to pay for a non-standard hull, one can ignore the compartment divisions, too! And as I understood it, Mixed designs could use Bk2 drives, but Bk2 PP didn't produce EP, so they couldn't be laser armed, etc... hehehe...
seriously, though, I never allowed mixed designs, and usually recalced designs for the standard deigns with HG. Usually freed up a couple of tons
seriously, though, I never allowed mixed designs, and usually recalced designs for the standard deigns with HG. Usually freed up a couple of tons
Ok, it's been a long, long time since I've been on the boards. I absolutely LOVED the "Redneck Trek" Type S.
All you need is a deer strapped across the hull, in front of the bridge. That would be great! Consider this the "good ol boy" version of the safari ship!
Anyone hear banjo music?
Anyone hear banjo music?
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"All you need is a deer strapped across the hull, in front of the bridge."
Nah, a K'Kree
Nah, a K'Kree
