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OTU Only: Types of Big Ships

...2) If you have a battle fleet like this in a system and they pick up an odd signal from a moon somewhere then you don't want to send one of the ships of the line as their purpose requires concentration of force so you need a frigate class as well, fast and expendable. They don't need to be that tough and wouldn't fight in the line of battle. They are effectively the fleet's version of recon light cavalry. ...

System recon is best performed by fighters: fast, cheap, expendable, numerous. They can cover more ground at lower cost. When there's reason to believe they may encounter opposition, they can be backed up at a discreet distance by a frigate with orders to engage if the fighters find something beyond their power but within the frigate's power, and to withdraw if the fighters encounter something too big for the frigate. Fighters have the advantage that if seriously overmatched they can scatter, assuring that most get back.

...
3) The main battle fleet is functionally restricted to the alpha systems and the trade lines between them - because that is their purpose - you don't want your battle fleet off patrolling a rock somewhere when someone attacks one of your Coruscant-like systems. ...

You assume poor control of your borders. If you have good control of your borders - i.e. resources positioned to keep you informed of any penetration of your space and its scope and movement - then you may want battlefleets strategically located to intercept those attackers before they reach your Coruscant-like systems. The layout of the systems may not give you a choice, but if you have the opportunity to defend forward, you should. Strikes me that huddling around the fortress worlds is surrendering too much initiative to the enemy and encourages your rocks to change sides.

...So the third minimum necessary class would be the cheap cruisers who patrol the less important systems and maybe raid commerce in war time. These need to be able to defeat merchants and pirates - who would be mostly in converted merchant ships - and evade battle fleets so fast and reasonably tough but not too much. ...

This is more effectively done by frigates, who are more than a match for converted merchant ships and, since you can buy several of them for the price of a cruiser, can cover more ground. As with frigates backing up fighter, you can have cruisers back a bit and positioned to back up the frigates if they come back with reports of a marauder too big for them to handle. In that role and from those positions, the cruisers can also threaten the supply lines of an invading fleet, obliging him to disperse assets to chase them off and secure his lines.

...They could easily be a SSU type ship. ...

Term not recognized. I presume this is a T5 thing?

...
4) In war time or in very pirate infested regions there might also be a need for convoy escorts. In terms of jump and manouver these only need to keep up with the type of merchants they escort and be able to fend off pirates and cruisers. They'd probably operate in groups if the risk entailed it so they wouldn't need to be individually capable of defeating cruisers. So the fourth type, Escort would be like a frigate but trading a frigate's speed for extra firepower. ...

Depends on the combat system. In High Guard, speed is life. In a combat system where speed matters less - well, speed matters less.

As to jump range, it depends on the nature of your escort. If they are intended to follow the merchant to the next system, then jump range will likely be no more than that of the merchants and more space can be allocated to offense and defense. If your defensive strategy is to escort them to the jump point and then have fast escorts in the receiving system ready to race to join them before a potential attacker can reach them, then you might rely on the more potent SDBs delivered to worlds with inadequate defenses by tenders.

Alternately, it may be useful to use the same design of frigate in both the patrol/raider and escort roles, so that assets can be shifted more easily if combat losses or a change in strategy require more emphasis on one role than the other.

...
So in a universe like this, in terms of the categories you might have:

important space
- battleship
- frigate
- tender

unimportant space
- cruiser
- escort

...

There are key worlds; your reserves are stationed there, ready to move forward once you are certain of the enemy's axis of attack.

There are, or may be, strategic systems that cover the approaches to these worlds; your stopping forces are stationed there.

There are, or may be supporting systems where positioning strong secondary assets will force the invader to disperse his assets to secure his lines of supply.

There are the borders and surroundings, where your primary role is to detect and monitor enemy movements, communicate those movements to your command, and respond with assets appropriate to the scale of the threat without weakening your primary defensive positions.

...
This model suits me as I want a BSU ...

Again, I'm not familiar with the abbreviation.

... What does a Coruscant type planet care about some rock somewhere with a weird religious colony who worship a snake god? ...

Depends on where the rock is. If the system happens to be a fuel-bridge through a region of otherwise empty space and planets lacking water or gas giants, they might care quite a bit.
 
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That might also be fed directly from RU. Fortify the high RU systems, and patrol the weak RU systems. Or even broader, RU equals the typical strength of local defenses.

That was what I was thinking more or less. If the alpha planets are the biggest revenue generators - which I assume from the world stats - then you'd want to put most of your resources into defending those planets, the trade links between them and the frontier itself. The minor planets *within* the Imperium would be the lowest priority (seems to me).

So the cheapest option for the minor planets around each alpha might be a few cheap patrol cruisers to show the flag and scare off pirates and some kind of very cheap info gathering organisation that would act as an early warning system if something was brewing that might effect the BSU part of the Imperium.

For example, recruit a bunch of low authority threshold types who cause problems in more strictly hierarchical military organisations, give them a bit of training and then stick them in cheap, little ships and let them earn a living in the SSU. Half of them will become criminals but the other half will become free law enforcement and intelligence gathering.

So training sergeant at scout school "A lot of you people think you were selected for Scout school because you're special. You're wrong. You were selected for Scout school because you're expendable."

So IMTU there's a naval base at each alpha planet and along the trade routes connecting them to each other and studded along the frontier and two sets of scout bases - a frontier set along the frontier and a second SSU set at points where the main trade routes connect with lots of minor planets whose job is keeping tabs on what's happening among the minor planets.
 
@Carlobrand

System recon is best performed by fighters

Maybe so. Once a function is decided on e.g. picket screen for the battleships, then the best option can be picked for the function although personally I like the idea of different factions picking different options for flavor reasons i.e. one might be a carrier/fighter dominated faction, one a spinal battleship faction, one a wave of missiles faction etc.

You assume poor control of your borders.

Yes I missed that bit out: the Coruscants, the main trade routes between them and parts of the frontier would be the BSU.

( BSU = big ship universe, SSU = small ship uiverse)


This is more effectively done by frigates, who are more than a match for converted merchant ships

Well maybe, my frigates are currently very fast and lightly armed picket ships, however the details and labels don't matter really. The point is if you decide on a function e.g. cheapest way to show the flag and scare pirates in minor systems you don't care about, then you pick the ship you think does that job best.


Depends on the combat system. In High Guard, speed is life. In a combat system where speed matters less - well, speed matters less.

Yes, that's another point. Personally I want the BSU part of the universe to be there as background flavor but the game itself to mostly take place in the SSU hence looking at the SSU ships first and from a Book 2 type direction. The big ships would be more High Guard type ships but as they'll be gigantic and unbeatable by players they don't need to be specified fully - for me anyway - so two sets of rules one for the BSU, one for the SSU.
 
Re Fighters and System Patrols - given that the travel times in system are measured in multiple days to weeks... you probably want your recon fighters to have a combat crew of 1-2 and a staffing of 2-3, with a sleeper bunk, and a food station. At which point, it starts to look more like a launch...
 
Re Fighters and System Patrols - given that the travel times in system are measured in multiple days to weeks... you probably want your recon fighters to have a combat crew of 1-2 and a staffing of 2-3, with a sleeper bunk, and a food station. At which point, it starts to look more like a launch...

No, I can bring a scout fighter with a small craft cabin in at 10 dTons. Maneuver drive comes in at 1.7 dTons, fuel at a dTon, power plant at 1 dTon at TL15, 1.2 at TL13-14, 1.8 at TL9-12, missile launchers at 1 dTon, minimal computer (model/1) at 1 dTon. Leaves 4.3 dTons at TL15, 4.1 dTons at TL13-14, 3.5 dTons at level 9-12, enough for cabin, 2 seats, and maybe a bit of armor or a computer upgrade depending on your tech level. As fighters go, it's like strapping guns to a Cessna: it's able to give a fight to the typical merchantman but pretty much useless against warships, but it's a cheap and fast reconnaissance platform.

I could make it larger, but you don't get much for the effort until you get big enough to carry and power really good computers, and the heavy fighters can cost as much as a squadron or more of little scouts - not to mention they take up a lot more room.
 
A true fighter, sure. Something that someone can live in for weeks or months, though...?

"A scout fighter with a small craft cabin." Unless there's a rule I don't know that says different, then presumably for as long as the fuel holds out, provided they stowed enough provisions for that aboard before launching it.
 
"A scout fighter with a small craft cabin." Unless there's a rule I don't know that says different, then presumably for as long as the fuel holds out, provided they stowed enough provisions for that aboard before launching it.

2 men in a station-wagon, with a portapotty. Not going to be pleasant.

Most people will be off the deep end in under a week.
 
If these are Scouts, then insanity is a risk of the career. Or put another way, military service is often unpleasant and crowded.

But, I can't imagine Hot Shot fighter pilots being able to handle extended stakeouts in the outsystem in a 3.0m by 3.0m room. That's less space, and more time, than Xboat service. In what sense are fighter pilots better suited for Xboat-like service than Scouts, and then why aren't we putting fighter pilots in the cabins aboard those IISS Xboats, instead of our fragile, addled Scouts?

So, either this is a Fighter, or it is a Picket. If it's a fighter, it has some combination of small-fast-lethal, with an operational time of hours (IF that helps shave volume). If it's a Picket, then "impressive sensors", "long-term life support", and "sanity space" is also thrown into the mix, so size, speed, and lethality will have to give way a bit.

If the benchmark used is:

Comfort = [(Stateroom + Common Space tonnage) / Crew] - 5

Where Comfort should be greater than 0 (and daily tension introducing Flux), then living space for a crew of two should start at 10 tons. That will keep two Hot-Shot pilots functional for about a week. 16 tons would probably keep them sane for a month, and 20 tons would keep them happy for extended periods of time.

Thus I suggest a picket is going to be larger than a Gig or Launch, and might work for a 30 ton boat, or a converted bomber, etc.
 
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I can bring a scout fighter with a small craft cabin in at 10 dTons. [...] As fighters go, it's like strapping guns to a Cessna: it's able to give a fight to the typical merchantman but pretty much useless against warships, but it's a cheap and fast reconnaissance platform.

This works - and I think you could probably get it under 10 tons as well - but it is not a picket in the "deep space stakeout" sense, nor is it an interplanetary or deep-space recon vessel. It is GREAT for planetary recon.
 
Deep space recon probably requires a number of sensor satellites. I think the inner system can be safely covered in a web of these, and once you get out past 2 AU things get more difficult.

Of course, this depends on your construction system + rules used. If you use Modern Technology and Reality, you'll likely get a different answer than if you use TL 15 and Traveller, which tends to prefer risk-taking based on partial data.
 
2 men in a station-wagon, with a portapotty. Not going to be pleasant.

Most people will be off the deep end in under a week.

More like two men in the smallest possible cabin cruiser in the middle of the sea. The men in the station wagon can at least get out and walk every now and again. And, yes, it is not pleasant duty.
 
This works - and I think you could probably get it under 10 tons as well - but it is not a picket in the "deep space stakeout" sense, nor is it an interplanetary or deep-space recon vessel. It is GREAT for planetary recon.

Three days in space at 6G gets you a billion kilometers, and another three days brings you back. The Apollo missions were a week and more in space under far more cramped conditions, and folk take to sea for days in these tiny little sailboats and cabin cruisers.

Despite the weapons, it's not usable as an armed space recon platform, no, (unless your opposition is in a civilian ship) but under the CT/High Guard system, it's as good as any larger boat in the detection role. It's also pretty effective in the ground attack role, since it's about the size and power of a tank (especially if you design a hybrid with ground-attack weapons). Its small size means smaller ships can carry several, so it can stand as perimeter watch for something like a destroyer squadron, providing early warning, though it lacks the firepower to have any influence on battle. Could support heavy fighters in the same role, giving the more expensive fighters enough advance warning to decide whether to engage or run for it.

At TL14-15, it can carry enough armor to be a very difficult target: the TL15 model takes criticals only from batteries of factor 7 or higher, and weapons other than pulse lasers or nukes cannot do fuel hits. A pulse laser has about a 1 in 18 chance of scoring a fuel hit (which of course kills the fighter, though not the crew), and a nuke has about a 1 in 4 chance of scoring a fuel hit; otherwise it's weapons hits. As to criticals: in a fighter about 2/3 of those leave the fighter able to fly away, and only about 11% result in loss of the crew.

So, while it lacks offensive punch, it is quite able to go out, see what's out there and come back intact. Its small size means ships can carry several with minimal expense in tonnage, and its low cost means it is expendable, while the high survivability means the pilot's most likely to survive to be recovered even if the craft is lost. Think of it as the fleet's flying eyeballs. "Fighter" might be a misnomer for it, given its role and minimal punch, but that's what they're calling the similar Book-2 small craft.

Under the MT system, it's not very effective in the recon role since the sensor rules depend heavily on the computer, but the MT design rules let you design some very effective, though expensive, small fighters and handicap large ships for agility, so that's a bit of a different setting.
 
Three days in space at 6G gets you a billion kilometers, and another three days brings you back. The Apollo missions were a week and more in space under far more cramped conditions [...]

A manned picket is a wealth of plot complications.

Better take a week to ten days to get out to a useful range, but I get your point. The Apollo missions were indeed a cramped couple of weeks, and it was probably a bit tense at times. Choose your crew wisely.

At that point "your mileage may vary" based on rules used. The rules I use allow missile-form sensor platforms, which are cheaper, smaller, and more disposable than manned vehicles. That said, manned pickets are great plot devices.
 
Better take a week to ten days to get out to a useful range, but I get your point. The Apollo missions were indeed a cramped couple of weeks, and it was probably a bit tense at times. Choose your crew wisely.
Motivation for participating in the Apollo missions were probably a tiny bit greater than the motivation of standard, join-the-system-defense-force-and-be-one-of many-thousands-defending-your-system volunteers (much less draftees).

And Classic Age Imperials1 seem to be rather sissy when it comes to space accomodations. Apparently you can't get military personnel to accept living in less than 2dT of space. I shudder to think what would be the result of employing contemporary Earth submarine conditions.
1 And anybody anywhere else in time and space if we are to believe the generic rules. :devil:


Hans
 
And Classic Age Imperials1 seem to be rather sissy when it comes to space accomodations.

I think that this was just not considered until later in the game's development -- after all, the stock assumption is or was that the crew are retired from service and are civilian adventurers. Add to that the relatively low detail of ship design, and you have LBB 1-2-3 in a nutshell.

Even with High Guard, which was intended for wargaming, one wonders why they didn't allow more ratings in bunks per stateroom. Maybe it was seen as a design tradeoff, and not a serious issue. It seems to me that High Guard got more right than wrong, even in its choices of simplifications and changes.
 
Motivation for participating in the Apollo missions were probably a tiny bit greater than the motivation of standard, join-the-system-defense-force-and-be-one-of many-thousands-defending-your-system volunteers (much less draftees).

And Classic Age Imperials1 seem to be rather sissy when it comes to space accomodations. Apparently you can't get military personnel to accept living in less than 2dT of space. I shudder to think what would be the result of employing contemporary Earth submarine conditions.
1 And anybody anywhere else in time and space if we are to believe the generic rules. :devil:


Hans

Well, these guys are presumably pilots, therefore Flight branch and I think they have to be officers, which puts them a step above the usual recruit, but I doubt they're all Apollo material - which maybe is why they need to be a bit more generous with space. But, yeah, they do seem a bit indulged. And the civilians - my goodness, 200 square feet per person average even if you aren't taking passengers. That's rather luxurious.
 
This wouldn't apply to in-system ships but IMTU jump space is connected to psionics and space craziness generally so the living space per person has been calculated over the years to be the minimum necessary to stop people thinking they're being whispered to from outside the ship during jumps.

I also have the navigator be like a sailing ship's helmsman during jump constantly checking and making little adjustments to stay on course.

(The two combined leading towards something like an early stage of Dune's navigators.)
 
This wouldn't apply to in-system ships but IMTU jump space is connected to psionics and space craziness generally so the living space per person has been calculated over the years to be the minimum necessary to stop people thinking they're being whispered to from outside the ship during jumps. ...

I understand Risperdal's good for that too. :D
 
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