unbroken xboat

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And now for the bad news.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'm still sure I read that the xboat can make it's jump in 4 days rather than the standard 7 days

I have read and re-read supplement 7 and there is no mention of a 4 day jump.
Could you be thinking of the Ship's Data block which has this entry:
Range: One jump-4. Three days </font>[/QUOTE]It could be a misreading of that or some other mixup years ago. It stands out in my mind so clearly because it was so odd, but in light of no evidence I'll have to go with that

Thanks btw for checking it for me Sigg, cheers

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

the only thing I remember out of the ordinary is "the extensive data storage and communications equipment" that takes up most of the space aboard... though this was never really defined in a design sense, at least in CT it wasn't... wouldn't a "four day jump" radically alter the entire traveller background? Why wouldn't other ships have 4-day engines? It's a big thing... it nearly cuts travel time in half...

 

[Spinward Scout]

There are lots of problems with the X-Boat system that make sense at TL 13, but would have been improved upon at TL 14 and 15. Doesn't the fuel requirement go down as the Tech Level goes up? Doesn't the size of the Jump drive go down as the TL goes up? Doesn't the tonnage of the bridge change in requirement as the TL goes up? The system is neat, but I would have thought that they would have used the Scout/Courier design more often than not on the X-Boat route.

Later,

Scout

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:


<snip>

wouldn't a "four day jump" radically alter the entire traveller background? Why wouldn't other ships have 4-day engines? It's a big thing... it nearly cuts travel time in half...

Quite. As I also made some similar points back on page 1 and of course is predicated on my obviously flawed reading and/or memory of it and so no longer much of a worry. I recall at the time simply accepting that the xboat was special, in much the same way that the scout/courier was special and could use unrefined fuel for jump. I seem to recall the reasoning of the time including the fact that the drives were tuned each and every jump by the tender rather than just annual (if any) maintenance and that the peak operating efficiency allowed the quicker jump time and little or no variation in that time, but again I'll emphasize I was wrong. At least until proven wrong again when it will also be proven that two wrongs can make a right

but I'm not holding my breath any longer

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Dameon Toth Detached Scout:
There are lots of problems with the X-Boat system that make sense at TL 13, but would have been improved upon at TL 14 and 15. Doesn't the fuel requirement go down as the Tech Level goes up? Doesn't the size of the Jump drive go down as the TL goes up? Doesn't the tonnage of the bridge change in requirement as the TL goes up? The system is neat, but I would have thought that they would have used the Scout/Courier design more often than not on the X-Boat route.

Later,

Scout

It all depends on which rule's build system you use. The original was a LBB2v1 build and technically a TL10 design due to the computer, the drives would only be TL9 in that system.

As for the Scout/Courier their part in the (Communications Branch) scheme is to supply service along the xboat route to Imperial worlds not actually on the route. Xboat systems would be busy little hubs of Scout traffic with many xboats coming and going, and many more Scout/Couriers to fill in the links off the route.

 

[robject]

Please note that there's a thorough and well-written article dealing with "the XBoat problem" at downport.com:

Rethinking the Xboat System

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks for the link robject

, there's some very interesting points discussed and the article shows how, with a bit of thought, the original CT starships can be made to fit within the framework of later developments.

 

[Spinward Scout]

<<<the drives would only be TL9 in that system>>>

This is another point where I get confused. I thought that Jump-4 was only capable of being built at TL 13. If this is the case, then the X-Boat system wouldn't have been put together until the Imperium reached TL 13. The drives for the X-Boat couldn't have been built at TL 9. At what point did the Imperium reach TL 13? In CT, it stands at the edge of TL 15, with most systems below that level. Am I correct? According to the Chronology chart, the X-Boat system didn't get established until 624. So, there "might" be a slight discrepancy there. Hmmm - more research is required, methinks...

Later,

Scout

 

[far-trader]

Certainly confusing yes. LBB2 (CT basic if you will) builds with a very different system than LBB5, aka High Guard (HG, CT advanced to continue the above). LBB2 uses very standard packages and is still allowed as a system under HG iirc. There are a lot of differences, very significant among them is the TL for Jump Drives.

HG has a table showing a steady progession tied to TL from TL9 to TL15.

LBB2 drives though are tied to a TL table in LBB3 where the drive size not performance is the factor. The small drives (A-D) are available at TL9. This btw is what also allowed the TL9 J2 Type S from CT. There is an unsteady progression through TL15 where you get all drive sizes.

It should also be noted that the LBB system is meant to only build ships to 5,000T while HG goes well beyond that.

The other factor affecting jump, the computer, is also a little different between the two systems.

So, does that help or more as I suspect just muddy the waters

In any case the best thing is probably to pick the system you like most overall, borrow from others what helps, and then try to resolve any remaining issues with canon as they come up.

This game was much easier when I started, way back, just 3 LBB and imagination. Now there's all this fret and worry over OTU and canonicity with 25+ years of history that is not all available to everyone.

I think all new player's should take the basic rules of whatever version and first build and play in their own TU like when I started. Then after they have a good feel for the mechanics and such they can start fresh in the OTU, only if they want to. I'd expect they'd be having so much fun they'd not miss it one bit

 

[mike wightman]

This is another point where I get confused.

Your confusion is understandable if you haven't read the TL chart in OT B3.
This gives the drive letter (from B2) relative to TL.
According to the chart drives A-D can be built at TL9. This theoretically allows a jump6 100t ship at TL9, according to the drive potential table. Due to fuel requirements etc this is not possible, although a jump4 ship is(with a little bit of imaginative rules interpretation for 2nd edition B2, see the link above provided by robject).
edit- rats, far-trader beat me to the post

 

[RainOfSteel]

I'd always envisioned the X-Boat network as a supplemental transport system for the Scouts. The extra stateroom is used to ferry Scouts across the Imperium when needed. Further, the other services frequently make requests of the scouts for transport of personnel aboard the X-Boats, and this gets the Scouts various deals in return (usually monetary transfers, but also trades, like the Navy providing base repair services for Scout ships on worlds with no Scout bases, etc.).

Further, I've toyed variously with creating an adjunct to Scout career service (in terms of MTU), where all Scouts serve their first year after training aboard the X-Boats, mandatory. This is the majority of personnel aboard the X-Boats (60%+), where rejects and victims of bureacratic wars form a minority (about 10-15%), and the remainder are temps acting as reliefs for main crew and Scout Passengers (who've served out their one year aboard X-Boats in their own first year) acting as additional crew (in theory; it's hard for an X-Boat commander, with less than a year of active service, to boss around sometimes vastly senior scouts). This X-Boat Year is part and parcel of the Scout's drive to create independence and self-reliance among its personnel. "If a Scout can't con an X-Boat, alone half the time, among the deeps of the stars, are they really Scout material?"

I sort of envision additional adventure possibilities related to these things.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Certainly confusing yes. LBB2 (CT basic if you will) builds with a very different system than LBB5, aka High Guard (HG, CT advanced to continue the above). LBB2 uses very standard packages and is still allowed as a system under HG iirc. There are a lot of differences, very significant among them is the TL for Jump Drives.

Think of it like this: Book 2 and High Guard both describe the same universe, but Book 2 ignores some aspects (such as tech levels) and simplifies others. Thus a Book 2 design is a simplified approximation of the true state of affairs. Whenever you use Book 2 designs you are wilfully ignoring these aspects of 'real life'. HG is a somewhat more complex view of the same universe. In the light of what HG tells us, we can conclude that Book 2 doesn't actually prove that it is possible to build jump-4 drives at T 9, for all that this is implied by the Book 2 rules.

(Note that HG designs are also simplified approximations to 'reality', they're just a bit less simplified.)


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

(Note that HG designs are also simplified approximations to 'reality', they're just a bit less simplified.)

Approximations like High Guard also introduces a much more sensible powerplant fuel formula but strangely switches the sizes of jump drives and maneuver drives

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Wouldn't using a TL 9 Design be sort of like using a telegraph in the age of Cell Phones? If the IISS is truly an Interstellar organization, Would it not stand to reason that they would constantly be upgrading Equipment? Telephone trucks get put out to pasture 9to the used market)after 6-10 years dependent upon wear... considering the xboat's "don't get attached to it" Pilot/Ship relationship it would be easy to move older xboats out of service or to frontier areas. You would have a situation where the closer you got to Core, the better/more modern the Xboats would be... Likewise, the more distant you got from the center of things, the boats would get lower and lower in quality and TL...

Just another thought...

Oh, here's a prototype we're hitting the IISS with next month... I for one hope they have deep pockets, what?

Ship: Model 24 X-Boat
Class: Model 24
Type: X-Boat
Architect: Sidur Haski Design Consortium
Tech Level: 15

USP XB24-1740341-000000-00000-0
MCr 58.600
100 Tons
Crew: 1
TL: 15
Cargo: 2.600
Fuel: 43
EP: 6
Agility: 0
Architects Fee: MCr 0.586
Cost in Quantity: MCr 46.880

Detailed Description (T20 Design)

HULL
100 tons standard, 1,400 cubic meters,
Dispersed Structure Configuration, 75 Structure Points

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 0G Manuever, 3 Ton Power Plant, 6 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4 Computer, Model/4 Sensors, Model/4 Communications

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
43 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Stateroom, 2.600 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Data Storage Banks (10 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 2),
1 High Speed Data Transfer Array (5 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 2),
1 Enhanced Communications Multiplexer Array (5 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 2)

COST
MCr 59.186 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.586),
MCr 46.880 in Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
38 Weeks Singly, 30 Weeks in Quantity

 

[jrients]

If I were running the X-boat network I would prefer a design that had the lowest tech that still met my specifications. It would make supporting the X-boat easier if I could obtain local parts even on backwater worlds.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by jrients:
If I were running the X-boat network I would prefer a design that had the lowest tech that still met my specifications. It would make supporting the X-boat easier if I could obtain local parts even on backwater worlds.

Scout Bases are probably capable of crafting from an engineering facility any part they need for the main three vessels, X-Boat, X-Boat Tender, and Scout/Courier. Waystations would have large facilities for doing so in quantity and with speed. They would make these parts at whatever tech level this ship was made at, because the shops were built and stocked for it.

As for finding parts on backwater worlds, well, it's unlikely any backwater world would be producing these vessels (or even parts of these vessels), so I would think any parts available locally would have themselves come in from off world, meaning the TL of the backwater world wouldn't matter that much. As for fabricating parts on demand, on early starfaring worlds, wouldn't the world have to take the original and figure out how to replicate it? Including either research & development on the part, plus building fab plants. Or one-off reconstruction, and the expense it entails. If they did without permission (architect fes), wouldn't they be violating the iron-clad patent rules of the Imperium?

 

[jrients]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

Or one-off reconstruction, and the expense it entails. If they did without permission (architect fes), wouldn't they be violating the iron-clad patent rules of the Imperium?

I guess you've left me wondering what the machineshop aboard the Kinunir is for, if Imperial patents are so tight. I figured that some spaceship parts (especially low TL ones) would be easy to acquire/handmake/kitbash if at a port of a useful tech level, assuming one carried the schematics/specs for such things onboard. But then again, my Traveller universe tends to be pretty wild and wooly, like the wild west in space.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by jrients:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

Or one-off reconstruction, and the expense it entails. If they did without permission (architect fes), wouldn't they be violating the iron-clad patent rules of the Imperium?

I guess you've left me wondering what the machineshop aboard the Kinunir is for, if Imperial patents are so tight. I figured that some spaceship parts (especially low TL ones) would be easy to acquire/handmake/kitbash if at a port of a useful tech level, assuming one carried the schematics/specs for such things onboard. But then again, my Traveller universe tends to be pretty wild and wooly, like the wild west in space. </font>

I hadn't thought of that.

The exact nature of law concerning Imperial Copyright/Patent/IP is a little unclear. I have read many posts here and on the TML that discuss the Imperium as having draconian Patent Laws that last forever. On the other hand, from reading them, I'm not 100% certain where the idea comes from. I infer that it comes from economics dicussions in attempts to justify the model-state of the Imperium by 1110, but that's a big maybe on my part.

As for the machine shops on the ship, it's obvious the owner can make a new part, otherwise long range repair is impossible. However, to pull into port on Windsor/Glisten, a backwater world, and find a place to manufacture parts for your X-Boat, well, I find that to be very unlikely. It might be conceiveable to find a few random parts for the Scout/Courier (some of which may have actually landed on the world), but the X-Boat? The X-Boats don't even stop on Windsor.

But Windsor/Glisten is only TL-9. What about Grote/Glisten. It's J-5 and 4 away from the nearest Jump Route Terminus Worlds, and so is definitely a bit off the beaten path, and yet, is Pop 4 and TL-12, with Starport A? They have the Tech to make parts for a low-tech X-Boat, but so low a population that I can't see why anyone would try to make (or import) X-Boat parts. Also, why would it matter? For a misjumped X-Boat?

The issue is building the X-Boats to the lowest tech possible from the specified requirements, to be able to make/find parts on backwater worlds. Maybe for Scout/Couriers, that would apply, as they go everywhere. X-Boats, though, only normally show up at their Terminus Worlds. An Off-Route X-Boat is probably going to have to be picked up by a Tender, anyway, though that goes into the subject of lost X-Boat recovery.

As for designs on the X-Boat, X-Boat Tender, and Scout/Courier, it's obvious the Scouts own the design, and their own facilities may do whatever they wish, but this is not the same for everyone else.

As for the Kinunir, the Navy definitely owns that design, and their personnel are also expressly licensed to do whatever they need.

 

[jrients]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Also, why would it matter? For a misjumped X-Boat?

Yeah, that's the issue I've had in mind. Sorry for not making that explicit. In an universe where misjump is a possibility and X-boats carry vital information, I think it makes sense to try to maximize the chances of an X-boat being able to secure repairs from the locals, whoever they may be.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by jrients:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Also, why would it matter? For a misjumped X-Boat?

Yeah, that's the issue I've had in mind. Sorry for not making that explicit. In an universe where misjump is a possibility and X-boats carry vital information, I think it makes sense to try to maximize the chances of an X-boat being able to secure repairs from the locals, whoever they may be. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you propose X-Boat Network vessel repair parts/stores caches, say, in pre-positioned locations, like warehouses leased long-term (100yr+) on every Off-Route world in the Imperium? Ones only J-1 or J-2 from Terminus worlds? I guess it might be possible, it would certainly add some extra story possibilities.

PC's are on, by way of example: Glisten/Glisten.


NPC Scout Patron: We've just got a report from Grote/Glisten. Locals say they helped out a misjumped X-Boat (reported missing out of Caladbolg/Sword's Worlds). They towed it into orbit, and a local repair company went to open the pre-positioned Scout Cache there according to their emergency services contract with us, but the entire thing had been looted. Worse, while investigating the theft, the X-Boat commander went missing, and to top that off, the X-Boat vanished from orbit.

1-All is as it seems. A group of pirates, hiding out on the backwater Grote/Glisten because of its lack of inherent law and it's relatively high tech (in comparison to most backwaters), took advantage of the rarely checked Scout Cache, bypassed its safeguards, and stole the materials there and sold them at 10% for about 200 KCr on the black market, the catch being that they finished it up six months ago. The X-Boat commander got too close, and was killed. The pirates then took off in their ship to steal the X-Boat and sell it, too, but by the time the players are able to arrive, even that is two months in the past. The trail is cold, and cracking it will be a difficult investigation of prying open the closed lips of all those who have been paid off or cowed into silence.

2-3: As 1, except locals, noting the X-Boat commander’s absence, stole the X-Boat itself, then had it stripped down and sold the spare parts to the black market for a pittance. The pirates extremely well armed, have TL-13 battledress and PGMPs, and they are watching for pursuit, and will strike first to preempt any they believe are coming after them.

4-5: The pirates are good-guy swashbucklers working for a branch of Imperial Intelligence with better than average morals. They are on Grote/Glisten, blending into the local insular underworld in an attempt to bring them down. They are just making progress when the PCs show up, sniffing around after the X-Boat commander. The underworld has put the X-Boat commander on ice, and not being completely professional or having much experience with Imperial forces, are considering a complicated third party ransom attempt, and are thinking they can get 100 KCr or more out the Scouts if they work it right (nonsense). The local underworld is also responsible for stealing the Scout Cache (which is long gone now, over a year ago). Because the pirates have been nosing around in the same areas the PCs are about to look in, they should find themselves steeping on their heels, and will probably draw all the right conclusions on their own. An interesting three-way confrontation should develop. This disappearence of the X-Boat is a mystery that will not be solved.

6: The pirates are an often-used and highly useful underworld catspaw of Imperial Intelligence forces (which agency is up to YTU). The pirates, supposedly keeping under the radar on Grote/Glisten, got bored and unleashed their violence on an X-Boat commander who offended them while pursuing the missing Scout Cache. Local thieves, having long-eyed the cache, launched a well-executed heist, and sold the material on the black market for 300 KCr. Although the influx of materials might be found, along with the buyers, the thieves have gotten away (unless the GM wishes to let them slip up in some highly subtle way the PCs will find only if they're really trying). Holding the pirates liable for killing the X-Boat commander will be difficult, the pirates will not go down without a fight, and while the Scouts will give a reward of 50 KCr for the murderer's apprehension, Imperial Intelligence will intervene and remove them from Scout custody and see that they are released in some distant location. The PCs will hear of their release much later.