unbroken xboat

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
But if we are to believe that and take your approach then the OTU must have Instantaneous communication (and by default perhaps instantaneous travel) across that distance. Check the last report on the page. It's stated as reported at Terra/Sol on 142-1112 and the Regina/Regina date of release is 142-1112! Quick! Detain that Xboat! It has instant infinity drives!

And what approach would that be? That before one discards a piece of canon, one tries to come up with a reasonable explanation for seeming inconsistencies, and only if that is not possible does one change it (and then cahnge it as little as possible to make it fit). I'm pretty sure that the original is dated as sent off on 142-1111. But even if it was 142-1112 in the original issue of Challenge, it seems a pretty reasonable assumption that it was supposed to be 142-1111.</font>[/QUOTE]Certainly that's been my approach, but from your post suggesting we ponder the implications of three canonical dispatches I got the distinct impression you were suggesting we need to infer that the only solution is J6 couriers. You didn't mention btw in that post that you presumed to edit the year of the one I pointed out. The way I noted that was largely for comic effect. I was just using the information you pointed us to. Obviously, yes the writers meant 142-1111, correct or not in any other way, I am certain they did not intend the travel time for that message to be zero.

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
...all, and I mean ALL canon must be taken with a grain of salt and liberally spiced with uncommon sense. In this case the dates don't work so ignore them and correct them for YTU and sleep soundly knowing you have done your bit to make the OTU that much safer

What makes you think the dates don't work (Assuming the third dispatch was sent off on 142-1111)? Using a jump-6 courier network it is possible, although the 346 day run is freakishly fast. You have to assume that the Navy has couriers standing by to jump out the moment the previous courier in the chain arrives and that the data is transferred very quickly. For the 346 day run an uncommonly large number of the couriers has to jump significantly 'short', that is, their jumps must take considerably less than the average time.

However, if you assume the Navy uses pairs of couriers rather than singletons, you shave an average of 6 hours off each jump, which helps a lot. (No, there's no canonical source that says the Navy uses courier pairs. But it's a useful idea and there is nothing that says they don't).


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]And here you confirm my suspicion above that you mean we must accept that the messages came by some super efficient J6 courier. That is why I say the dates don't work. I won't argue that such couriers exist or not, that is not the point at all for this case. The point is that the TNS is a service provided for members of the Travellers' Aid Society and as such goes by the quickest public distribution, the J4 Xboat routes. There is no way[1] the message could travel that distance in that time by that method. So before I'd discard that piece of canon, I'd try to come up with a reasonable explanation for the seeming inconsistencies, and only if that is not possible would I change it, and then as little as possible to make it fit. The possible changes are the dates are wrong or they came at quicker than J6. Gee, let's see, which is the smaller change. I think I'll just change the dates, either the date sent or the date of arrival. Keeping the date sent (and in this case 'correcting' the one that is obviously in all likelyhood a typo) makes the most sense since that way the meta-story stays rational and I (or anyone else) can determine when that particular story hits the players' hand comp no matter where in the Imperium they are when they log in for their TAS subscription. In fact this seems to only be an issue because those three items start with:

A dispatch from Terra/Sol (O207-A867A69-F) dated 130-1111 reads:

I'm not sure what the source of those is but a quick look through some old JTAS and Challenge as well as the current online TNS by SJG only finds one date for each dispatch, presumably the date of publication for the star system listed which also seems to be the star system of original filing of the news item. So the default and sensible format of 'reporting' TNS dispatches with the original filing star system and date was broken here, and with the obvious result of broken canon. So again the obvious and easiest fix is to change the dates.

[1] - Ok, there is at least one way. An Xboat (well more like three in this case) misjumps, and by luck survives and ends up farther along the route and in a link system. That is patently absurd of course since the service of each Xboat in each link and the use of only Xboat Tender Fuel Lab processed LH is all designed to eliminate any misjump chance.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:


<snip>

What makes you think the dates don't work (Assuming the third dispatch was sent off on 142-1111)? Using a jump-6 courier network it is possible, although the 346 day run is freakishly fast. You have to assume that the Navy has couriers standing by to jump out the moment the previous courier in the chain arrives and that the data is transferred very quickly. For the 346 day run an uncommonly large number of the couriers has to jump significantly 'short', that is, their jumps must take considerably less than the average time.

However, if you assume the Navy uses pairs of couriers rather than singletons, you shave an average of 6 hours off each jump, which helps a lot. (No, there's no canonical source that says the Navy uses courier pairs. But it's a useful idea and there is nothing that says they don't).


Hans

OK, that didn't sink in the first couple times I read it but I see it now as no doubt you will too. At least I think I see what you were meaning.

Jumping in pairs, if I read you right, you think to average out a +6 hour arrival and a -6 hour arrival each hop, and total that up over the whole route, to save a day in transit time every 4 hops. Problem is it doesn't work that way. Each hop is a seperate chance for a gain or loss, it all evens out. For example you send a pair on their way. Ship A1 arrives 6 hours ahead of average and and Ship B1 arrives 6 hours behind the average. Ship A1 passes the message on to ship A2 and Ship B2. Ship A2 and Ship B2 each jump with even odds of arriving 6 hours ahead of average or 6 hours behind average. The best you can hope for in such a system is a reasonable consistancy of 6 hours sooner on any single hop. The longer the route the closer it will average to the mean. In fact you can't even be sure for any one hop that one of the ships will be early. There will be many times that both are early and both are late.

 

[Elliot]

You educated mathmoes just wont learn will you!!!!

Humans do not follow the rule of the path of least resistance, humans do not rationalise inefficient routes, humans do not have a university planning authority to kill inefficient routes to make things faster.

When I played Traveller with all-comers rather I learnt this fact - I also learnt that you drank a lot of beer. Here is the truth: PEOPLE/GOVERNMENTS DO NOT USE RATIONALISATION TO WORK OUT THE MOST EFFICIENT 'THING' POSSIBLE AND WHEN THEY DO PEOPLE LOSE JOBS AND PLANT BOMBD

Shout over, Traveller is an adult game about human all too human humans (and others)themes - there is no room for geographers, so .........

 

[far-trader]

Well I'm quite sure this can't be directed at me, else I might be insulted but I would reply to a couple of the issues...

Originally posted by Elliot:
You educated mathmoes just wont learn will you!!!!

Humans do not follow the rule of the path of least resistance, humans do not rationalise inefficient routes, humans do not have a university planning authority to kill inefficient routes to make things faster.

I would have to argue that such a statement can only be false. Certainly some humans do all the above but...

As far as the game goes I've always accepted a certain built in inefficiency in such as Xboat routes. Sure it's there because they were generated randomly but a part of the reason for that is to model such as favoritism and injustice and plain stupidity in the making of such decisions in real life.

Originally posted by Elliot:
When I played Traveller with all-comers rather I learnt this fact - I also learnt that you drank a lot of beer. Here is the truth: PEOPLE/GOVERNMENTS DO NOT USE RATIONALISATION TO WORK OUT THE MOST EFFICIENT 'THING' POSSIBLE AND WHEN THEY DO PEOPLE LOSE JOBS AND PLANT BOMBD

Shout over, Traveller is an adult game about human all too human humans (and others)themes - there is no room for geographers, so .........

Certainly true to a point, but so wrong too. There are people and governments (or at least some in government) who do try to be rational and efficient and it does not always cost jobs, even sometimes creating jobs or making them better. Even when people do lose jobs (and it's as much due to irrational and inefficient plans) most do not plant bombs, for which we can all be quite thankful.

No rules exist in any published version of the game requiring copious consumption of alcohol. In fact in our games it was always caffeinated sugar for the buzz

Finally there is certainly room for geographers. And physicists, and psychologists, and ethicists, and (I could go on), in fact any and all sundry humans (all that is required is a reasonable maturity and literacy). Quite in line with your all-comers statement, which you so falsly seem to assume (or at least would have me believe ) means just you and your (self described) booze-hound mates.

EDIT - I hope the above is coming across in the right way. I mean no offense and would cheerfully drain a pint (or two) with you and your mates given the chance, during a round of our old game or not. Maybe booze-hounds was ill chosen, but it was an intended exaggeration. I'm not entirely sure just where you're coming from in the little rant above but it depressed me. I hoped to lighten the mood a bit while offering my own thoughts on what you brought up.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Certainly that's been my approach, but from your post suggesting we ponder the implications of three canonical dispatches I got the distinct impression you were suggesting we need to infer that the only solution is J6 couriers.

That is quite true. At least, I can't come up with any explanation that doesn't involve J6 couriers. When I put that together with the canonical fact that J6 couriers exist (they are featured in Fighting Ships) it doesn't seem too great a leap to conclude that the Navy actually uses their J6 couriers.

You didn't mention btw in that post that you presumed to edit the year of the one I pointed out. The way I noted that was largely for comic effect. I was just using the information you pointed us to. Obviously, yes the writers meant 142-1111, correct or not in any other way, I am certain they did not intend the travel time for that message to be zero.

Not only was it obvious, it was so obvious that I didn't notice that it wasn't 142-1111 (as you might have been able to deduce from the fact thatI claimed that it was a 365 day trip). So I did not "presume to edit" it. If I had noticed, I would have remarked upon it and told you that I had presumed that it should have been 142-1111 rather than 142-1111.

Incidentally, I don't have the original (it was in Challenge #27; can anyone check it out, please?) but for what it is worth, the transcripts in Galactic has the date as 132-1111.

And here you confirm my suspicion above that you mean we must accept that the messages came by some super efficient J6 courier.

Not 'must'. I don't presume to dictate to anyone. 'Should'.

That is why I say the dates don't work. I won't argue that such couriers exist or not, that is not the point at all for this case. The point is that the TNS is a service provided for members of the Travellers' Aid Society and as such goes by the quickest public distribution, the J4 Xboat routes.

Look at those newsbriefs again. They're not datelined Terra. They are datelined Regina. And they quote dispatches from Terra. How those dispatches got from Terra to Regina is debatable, but it wasn't by the normal TNS network. I submit that they got there by IN courier, which explains it quite neatly.

There is no way the message could travel that distance in that time by that method.

There's no way it could get there by X-boat, but then, I wasn't proposing that it did. I'm arguing that the Navy does maintain a jump-6 courier network and that those three messages are evidence of this.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Jumping in pairs, if I read you right, you think to average out a +6 hour arrival and a -6 hour arrival each hop, and total that up over the whole route, to save a day in transit time every 4 hops. Problem is it doesn't work that way. Each hop is a seperate chance for a gain or loss, it all evens out. For example you send a pair on their way. Ship A1 arrives 6 hours ahead of average and and Ship B1 arrives 6 hours behind the average. Ship A1 passes the message on to ship A2 and Ship B2. Ship A2 and Ship B2 each jump with even odds of arriving 6 hours ahead of average or 6 hours behind average. The best you can hope for in such a system is a reasonable consistancy of 6 hours sooner on any single hop. The longer the route the closer it will average to the mean. In fact you can't even be sure for any one hop that one of the ships will be early. There will be many times that both are early and both are late.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Each jump is a separate event. If ships A1 and B1 saves 6 hours on the first hop, all subsequent jumps will start out those six hours to the good. What you're overlooking is that the 6 hour saving (actually only 3 hours, see below) is an average. Sometimes a courier pair will win 9 hours, sometimes they will loose 3. The average for a pair is lower than the average for a singleton. How much lower depends on your assumptions. If you assume that jump durations are evenly distributed along the possible interval, you can get savings of 8 or even 12 hours. My assumption is that a jump takes 140+8D6 hours. This gives a bell curve centered around 168 hours with a +/- of 20 hours. I think that fits well with official rules which in different rules sets has said +/- one day and +/- 10% (16.8 hours).

BTW, I dug out my figures and the 6 hour saving I mentioned would require 6 ships per link. 2 ships will 'only' give you a saving of roughly 3 hours. Here are the figures:

N=1: Average = 28.0 Std. Deviation = 4.8304589154 90% <35

N=2: Average = 25.2704163803 Std. Deviation = 3.985311355 90% <30

N=3: Average = 23.9056245704 Std. Deviation = 3.58608040418 90% <28

N=4: Average = 23.0240675513 Std. Deviation = 3.3398396039 90% <27

N=5: Average = 22.3841279275 Std. Deviation = 3.16750509123 90% <26

N=6: Average = 21.8871574412 Std. Deviation = 3.03760837589 90% <26

N=7: Average = 21.4838319633 Std. Deviation = 2.93479650487 90% <25

N=8: Average = 21.1461846456 Std. Deviation = 2.85055541734 90% <25



Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Just in case anybody is interested in a realistic ballpark figure for the actual transit time for an Xboat message from Terra/Sol to Regina/Regina I did a quick estimate based on the routes shown on my CT maps for the Marches and Rim sectors and guesstimating for the sectors between. It looks like about 138 weeks but could be as little as maybe 101 weeks.

As I said in another post, I wasn't talking about X-boat messages but Navy couriers. Here are my figures for the same distance:

From Terra to Muan Gwi is two jumps. I don't have Diaspora sector entered in my Galactic program, so I can't work out an exact route from Muan Gwi to Capital, but the the two worlds are 120 parsecs apart. That might be done in 20 6-parsec jumps, but that is unlikely. An average of 5.5 parsecs per jump should be doable, however. That makes it 22 jumps from Muan Gwi to Capital. From Capital to Vland is 59 parsecs and there's a good route that takes 11 jumps. From Vland to Deneb is 66 parsecs and a good route that takes 13 jumps. From Deneb to Mora is 20 parsecs and 4 jumps. and from Mora to Regina via Rhylanor is another 4 jumps for a grand total of 56 jumps. To do that in 346 days you need to average 6 days, 4 hours and 17 minutes, which is remarkably fast. Theoretically possible, but certainly quite unlikely.

But it may not be a full 56 jumps. If the Navy really wants to hurry -- and it is certainly concievable that they would not be satisfied with anything less than the very lowest communication time possible -- they can shave two jumps off the Mua Gwi-Capital run, another off the Capital-Vland run, and two more off the Vland-Deneb run, for a total of 51 jumps from Terra to Regina.

To do that, the Navy would have to mess around with deep space fuel depots in those places where there are no system that fits the full 6-parsec jumps, This does sound excessive in terms of the resources it would require, but military minds do like their information fresh.

There's another possibility, anyway. To get from Vland to Regina via Deneb and Mora, the route makes a riwwards curve in Deneb sector, which adds several jumps to the trip. Going directly from Vland to Regina is 94 parsecs, which is theoretically doable in 16 jumps, more likely in 18. That makes the route 52 or 53 jumps. That requires an average of 6 days, 12 hours, and 40 minutes. Still remarkably fast, but not impossibly so. (The 375 days, OTOH, are quite close to 7 days.

Incidentally, going from Terra to Vland via Muan Gwi and Capital is also going along a curve. I haven't checked it out, but I believe it must be possible to shave another jump or two off the route by going directly from Terra to Vland. I don't believe that is very likely (surely all dispatches would be routed through Capital?), but it is a theoretical possibility.

Finally, there's the possibility of a misjump. Misjumps are rare; misjumps that just happens to move a courier in the right direction are rarer still, but not *that* much rarer. Roughly one misjump in six will be in the right direction; any that puts a courier into a star system without thrashing its engines will allow it to take advanage of the mishap. Maybe only one misjump in twenty will work out like that, but with thousands of couriers jumping every day it must happen once in a while. A 21-parsec misjump like that could put a dispatch two or three jumps ahead of schedule. That could reduce the required average for the rest of the jumps to 6 days and 22 hours.


Hans

 

[Elliot]

Hey Far Trader thanks for the civil reply - I meant no offence and i'm glad none was taken!

Travelling on.....

 

[John Ross]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
One thing I always questioned, My Lords, is the "Ice Cream Cone" Configuration of the traditional X-Boat. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool ship, but wouldn't a design more conducive to tendering be more effective? The lack of M-Drives negates the need for streamlining, so why not X-boats that Stack like Legos or something in the bay? Plus, A dispersed configuration is cheap to produce... Just a thought...

How about if the original hull was a teardrop shaped normal space courier. One image that comes to mind is Robert Heinleins " Torch Ships " which on a regular basis were described as teardrop shaped with the Torch at the narrow end to reduce th radiation threat to the crew.

Balthazaar

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Certainly that's been my approach, but from your post suggesting we ponder the implications of three canonical dispatches I got the distinct impression you were suggesting we need to infer that the only solution is J6 couriers.

That is quite true. At least, I can't come up with any explanation that doesn't involve J6 couriers. When I put that together with the canonical fact that J6 couriers exist (they are featured in Fighting Ships) it doesn't seem too great a leap to conclude that the Navy actually uses their J6 couriers.</font>[/QUOTE]Ah, I begin to see where you are coming from (having read ahead of course, but the light starts to come on here). You are working on the premise that if all is true as for the dates then it must have come via J6 Courier.

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
You didn't mention btw in that post that you presumed to edit the year of the one I pointed out. The way I noted that was largely for comic effect. I was just using the information you pointed us to. Obviously, yes the writers meant 142-1111, correct or not in any other way, I am certain they did not intend the travel time for that message to be zero.

Not only was it obvious, it was so obvious that I didn't notice that it wasn't 142-1111 (as you might have been able to deduce from the fact thatI claimed that it was a 365 day trip). So I did not "presume to edit" it. If I had noticed, I would have remarked upon it and told you that I had presumed that it should have been 142-1111 rather than 142-1111.

Incidentally, I don't have the original (it was in Challenge #27; can anyone check it out, please?) but for what it is worth, the transcripts in Galactic has the date as 132-1111.</font>[/QUOTE]Well I can't help there, that Challenge issue is gone. The Galactic date gives a little more time for the transit but imo the 142-1111 date fits the release of info schedule better (only as in a more even distribution though). No problem then, I got bit by my assumption that you had noticed it but not noted it.

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
And here you confirm my suspicion above that you mean we must accept that the messages came by some super efficient J6 courier.

Not 'must'. I don't presume to dictate to anyone. 'Should'.</font>[/QUOTE]Very well, should then, but from your premise I have to agree there is no other way I can see it working.

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
That is why I say the dates don't work. I won't argue that such couriers exist or not, that is not the point at all for this case. The point is that the TNS is a service provided for members of the Travellers' Aid Society and as such goes by the quickest public distribution, the J4 Xboat routes.

Look at those newsbriefs again. They're not datelined Terra. They are datelined Regina. And they quote dispatches from Terra. How those dispatches got from Terra to Regina is debatable, but it wasn't by the normal TNS network. I submit that they got there by IN courier, which explains it quite neatly.</font>[/QUOTE]An interesting point. I could come up with some interesting scenarios around that. Like (for one off the top of my head): The pilot of the first J6 Courier had the TAS news feed when he left Terra and after reading it passed it along with the regular Navy files for the other pilots to read, all the way through to Regina where the pilot at that end released it and scooped TAS with their own story

Of course TAS will be annoyed when they find out (eventually) they've paid for Xboat transmission of the same story

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
There is no way the message could travel that distance in that time by that method.

There's no way it could get there by X-boat, but then, I wasn't proposing that it did. I'm arguing that the Navy does maintain a jump-6 courier network and that those three messages are evidence of this.


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]That can work. I guess I'm just uncomfortable with such mundane message traffic being attributed to a specialized military courier, at least in any regular way, and prefer to take the TNS entries as just that, frontpage headline news. I prefer to come to a different conclusion based on a different premise. So I said the dates are an error because they did come by Xboat. I prefer that the J6 Couriers (Navy and MegaCorp) remain unacknowledged. Not secret but not widely known either, and reserved for the type of time critical dispatches that have them sitting idle more often than not.

You could be onto something though, a little Easter egg hidden by the writers to make us wonder "Hey, how did this story get here so fast?". It's possible, especially given that they break the mold and mention two dates. It does seem designed to make one do the math.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
<snip brain melt >

I'm afraid you're wrong.

<snip>


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]I'm afraid you're correct

Not sure what I was thinking when I started that post but by the end I had more than half convinced myself I might be wrong, but I was too tired to know what I was thinking anymore so I posted anyway figuring someone would point out the error.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by far-trader:
That can work. I guess I'm just uncomfortable with such mundane message traffic being attributed to a specialized military courier, at least in any regular way, and prefer to take the TNS entries as just that, frontpage headline news. I prefer to come to a different conclusion based on a different premise. So I said the dates are an error because they did come by Xboat. I prefer that the J6 Couriers (Navy and MegaCorp) remain unacknowledged. Not secret but not widely known either, and reserved for the type of time critical dispatches that have them sitting idle more often than not.

You could be onto something though, a little Easter egg hidden by the writers to make us wonder "Hey, how did this story get here so fast?". It's possible, especially given that they break the mold and mention two dates. It does seem designed to make one do the math.

Based on personal preference, I'm going to agree with you on this one. TNS dispatches are just that, from the Traveller News Service, which cannot use anything for Imperium-wide distribution but the X-Boats. Of course, in this case, the TNS on Regina could be making a public report of a recently released naval dispatch from Terra that arrived via the J-6 IN (or Imperiallines, depending) communications network. Except that these dispatches don't look like the world-shattering news that would justify sending and releasing them of a J-6 network.

I find it far easier to believe that a mistake was made while writing it. It is far easier, for me personally, to accept that a simple human error was made, rather than inventing new features of the TU. However, I'll readily admit, that there is nothing wrong with going the other way, either. I, too, have engaged in invented assumptions about various aspects about the OTU based on statments here and there, plus general assumptions.

I've invented quite a few tidbits about Capital, and several other things.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Anthony:
One of the biggest problems with the X-boat network going at J-4 is that it simply isn't that expensive to build a J-6 backbone; it's easily practical for a megacorp, and not that hard for a smaller regional corp.

The other problem with the X-boat network is that it's terribly designed even given a J-4 limit. Cleaning up fishy links could probably increase its speed by 25% without any improvement in hardware.

The Supp 9 cost for the J-6 400 dTon IN Courier is 254 MCr in qty. The X-Boat costs approx. 70 MCr in qty. The IN/Courier is 3.6 times more expensive, for only a 50% boost in long range communications speed. There is a crew of 5, instead of 1 (or two, depending), which also adds more expense. Adding them into the X-Boat system would require adding stores and supplies for this type of vessel to all scout bases and waystations (or just those along the main backbones), plus additional training for all Scouts involved with the maintenence of them. While I think it might be "doable", I also think it would add a lot more expense. The capital cost of investing in all that equipment, training, planning, losses due to errors during deployment and early use (caused by mistakes and misunderstandings), alone, before a Credit was earned, would be pretty big.

The trouble with shifting from the crazy-quilt of modern X-Boat routes (surely the product of five centuries of maneuvering at the Emperor's Court) to an efficient and well designed network, or one based on two or four J-6 backbones, is the weighty interest of all the nobility involved. Every X-Boat Route Terminus World faced with losing that status would fight, tooth and nail, using every dirty trick in the book and every bit of acquireable influence at Subsector, Sector, and the Emperor's Court to retain their Route Terminus (and they would fight far harder if they had multiple Route Termini).

Premium networks, run by the Megacorporations, probably do exist. I envision such services as carried aboard J-6 couriers. They run a series of jump 5 and jump 6 optimized links, all of which begin a Capital/Core, and spread out. The main links Rimward run to Dingir and Terra, and make stops at the most imporant locations in Massilia<sp> and Diaspora. Likewise, the link running to Regina makes stops at Vland, Deneb, and other imporant spots. A similar link out to Ilelish is also likely. These networks do not go everywhere, and probably link into the X-Boat Service for final delivery to worlds off the Premium Route Terminus worlds.
It's also readily conceivable that there are full service, Imperium-wide courier services, "When you absolutely, positively, need it there in only 40 weeks!".

Such links would be expensive, because the alternatives would be the slow X-Boat service. Competition keeps the price from going too high, of course, but this does not necessarily make such high speed services affordable to the average Imperial Citizen.

 

[Anthony]

Yes, it's more expensive. Problem is, that doesn't really matter, when you're dealing with the backbone link; MCr 250 is still chump change to Hi-pop worlds. Routes to low priority destinations will still certainly get J4 ships, but when Mora spends a trillion credits a year on it's system defense fleet (less than 1% of GPP) that 250 MCr doesn't look so important...

 

[The Oz]

Using High Guard, at TL-15 it is possible to design a jump-6 courier at 170 tons, requiring only one crew and costing MCr 120 in quantity. And this is a real ship, with a 1-G maneuver drive. It doesn't have fuel scoops or a fuel purification plant, however. It shouldn't need them.

It even has 1.3 tons of cargo space. Only one stateroom, though.

I suspect that the Third Imperium just hadn't yet gotten around to upgrading the X-boat system to jump-6.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Using High Guard, at TL-15 it is possible to design a jump-6 courier at 170 tons, requiring only one crew and costing MCr 120 in quantity. And this is a real ship, with a 1-G maneuver drive. It doesn't have fuel scoops or a fuel purification plant, however. It shouldn't need them.

It even has 1.3 tons of cargo space. Only one stateroom, though.

I suspect that the Third Imperium just hadn't yet gotten around to upgrading the X-boat system to jump-6.

Why WOULD they upgrade?

The J4 routing is accepted, and fairly economical, and there is no apparent competitor on the open market going faster in an imperium wide basis. The J4 routing makes a lot of money, uses established routes, ships, designs, patterns of operation, fees, and software. {1}

Additionally, a major chunk of the area served is culturally vilani, and thus likely to resist change for the sake of change.

Would a J6 based network be as efficient? Not with extant off-route message handling (canonically by scout/courier). Since the established ggoal is routes beign 2J2 from a given route node, and J6 routes would serve far fewer worlds (About 25% less, due to straighter routing choices), and would invovle changing some untold millions of XBoats (assuming daily service on each route), and thousands in any case, the initial costs for the IMPERIUM to do so are staggering. Affordable, but staggering. And creating such a network would require either creating a second, J6 network, pulically adopting an extant network, or otherwise mmaking the transition without a civil war, it is far mroe work than a public network needs.

And yes, the multiple courier method is probably used along a J6 "Fast Message Route", for major stuff. Shaving half a day per leg can be QUITE the savings. Keeping a couple of local reservists on call with ready 100Td Couriers is well wihin the sector navy budgets... at least along predetermined Domain-Capitol to Domain-Capitol and DC to Sector-Capitol routes (remembering that the Domain of Sylea has Capital/Core as its seat).

With three, and the standard duration range, per MT (1 in 6 chance of 6 day; that's 1-((5/6)^3)=42% chance of 6 day, and about 0.5% chance that all three take 8 days. It's worth it... for a J6 EMERGENCY USE or Very High priority message system.

{1} Yes, this IS a GREAT vector for computer virii if the network gets poorly designed, but since Micro$ isn't on the megacorps list....

 

[Elliot]

I remember reading an old Challenge article called Project Farstar by Marcus Rowland in which he stated that the low jump rating of many imperial starships helped backwater economies because it meant that backwaters had to be visited.

Its certainly the case in the 'real world' that markets towns grew up about one days horse ride from major localities - travellers were forced to stop over as their horses were knackered.

Those towns have not prospered in the era of motor and air transport and have fallen into backwaters. That or they have become 'nice' commuterbelt towns.

I envisage something similar occuring in the Imperium.

 

[plop101]

Just peaking in at the thread...

The Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan writes:

One thing I always questioned, My Lords, is the "Ice Cream Cone" Configuration of the traditional X-Boat. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool ship, but wouldn't a design more conducive to tendering be more effective? The lack of M-Drives negates the need for streamlining, so why not X-boats that Stack like Legos or something in the bay? Plus, A dispersed configuration is cheap to produce... Just a thought...

I always looked upon the old design as a space capsule type set up. IMTU, if the x-boat got into a gravity well of a planet it would have limited chemical thrusters for a one-time re-entry. Sortoff a oversized Mercury capsule type arrangement. The X-boat would be wrecked, but it would give the pilot a chance to survive, and the data in the computer would be intact for retrieval later. But thats just my notion of it.

Quickly looking at HGS v13 for a quicky xboat design:
Ship: X-boat HG2 Class: X-boat HG2
Type: X-boat Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP XB-1341441-000000-00000-0 MCr 88.000 100 Tons
Bat Bear Crew: 1
Bat TL: 13
Cargo: 13.000 Fuel: 44.000 EP: 4.000 Agility: 1

Architects Fee: MCr 0.880
Cost in Quantity: MCr 70.400

Hmmm. I suspect that cost would be the only reason why one would use the old xboat, at least as far as enhanced CT and MT is concerned.

Looking at the later posts...
In T:2300, in Star Cruiser, they had the stutterwarp drives set up in categories like 'old civilian', 'new civilian', 'old military', 'new military', etc. I always looked upon J6 as a the 'new military' thing. 'old military' and 'new civilian' would be J5; thus J4 and earlier would be 'old civilian' I think the imperial government would use 'old civilian' tech for its open network. In this light, megacorps could build a J5 network, but I wonder what they would do with the info? For some reason I don't think they would set up a free open J5 xboat net. I could see them setting up a network for their own info, but then they would be keeping info just like the Imperium does. But I may be wrong. Who knows.

I dunno. Tell me when you guys have it all figured out.....

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I guess I'm just uncomfortable with such mundane message traffic being attributed to a specialized military courier, at least in any regular way,

Mundane?

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A).........................................................................102-1112

A dispatch from Terra/Sol (0207-A867A69-F) dated 121-1111 reads: "The first known victim known to survive direct exposure to hyperspace arrived at Terra today, suffering from what medical experts are calling "Hyperspace sickness'...

This little news item concerns an event that is unique in 11,000 years of recorded history. I don't call that mundane.

...and prefer to take the TNS entries as just that, frontpage headline news. I prefer to come to a different conclusion based on a different premise. So I said the dates are an error because they did come by Xboat. I prefer that the J6 Couriers (Navy and MegaCorp) remain unacknowledged. Not secret but not widely known either, and reserved for the type of time critical dispatches that have them sitting idle more often than not.

Well, I think the original question was "If (as canon claims) the Imperium designed the X-boats to minimize communication times in order to keep the Imperium together, and if (as canon also claims) the Imperium is presently straining at the seams because of communication problems, then how come the X-boat network has not been upgraded to jump-5 400 years ago and jump-6 a 100 years ago, at least along selected backbones?"

And the answer I've come up with is: Because the Imperium no longer need the X-boats for official business, having turned to the 'Navy-net' 400 years ago.

I admit that this doesn't explain why pressure from the public hasn't caused a update of the X-net, but at least there is no all-powerful Emperor or Imperial bureaucracy pushing for it. For the rest I say that the X-boat manufacturers lobby at Capital has been powerful enough to block any change in X-boat legislation and funding. I imagine they are doing this because the X-boats have become a huge boondoggle (with the manufacturers making unreasonable profits on the boats and being afraid that switching to jump-5 and jump-6 designs will cause a renegotiation of the contracts.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Would a J6 based network be as efficient? Not with extant off-route message handling (canonically by scout/courier). Since the established ggoal is routes beign 2J2 from a given route node, and J6 routes would serve far fewer worlds (About 25% less, due to straighter routing choices), and would invovle changing some untold millions of XBoats (assuming daily service on each route), and thousands in any case, the initial costs for the IMPERIUM to do so are staggering.

You seem to regard this as an either/or situation. It's not. Just adding a once-a-week jump-6 link from Capital to each sector capital would be enough to improve the network immensely at a comparatively modest cost. Keep the original jump-4 ships for secondary dispersement to subsector capitals and high-population worlds. Reduce the frequency on some of the jump-4 routes a little to pay for it.


Hans