unbroken xboat

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
I guess I'm just uncomfortable with such mundane message traffic being attributed to a specialized military courier, at least in any regular way,

Mundane?

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A).........................................................................102-1112

A dispatch from Terra/Sol (0207-A867A69-F) dated 121-1111 reads: "The first known victim known to survive direct exposure to hyperspace arrived at Terra today, suffering from what medical experts are calling "Hyperspace sickness'...

This little news item concerns an event that is unique in 11,000 years of recorded history. I don't call that mundane.</font>[/QUOTE]You're right, I chose the worng adjective in the literal sense. Let's instead call it useless information. Sure it's an interesting story but until the findings are in, and maybe not even then, it's just one of a few hundred billion personal interest pieces you'll find in the Imperium, like "Child survives 7 story fall from apartment window without a scratch." I remember first reading that dispatch (the Jumpspace sickness, not the child) and thinking, "that's interesting but how does it affect me, way out here in the Marches? It doesn't because I'm not sticking my head into Jumpspace. I wonder what the news net has on recent Corsair activity in the area, now that's news I can use."

Originally posted by rancke:

Originally posted by far-trader:
[qb]...and prefer to take the TNS entries as just that, frontpage headline news. I prefer to come to a different conclusion based on a different premise. So I said the dates are an error because they did come by Xboat. I prefer that the J6 Couriers (Navy and MegaCorp) remain unacknowledged. Not secret but not widely known either, and reserved for the type of time critical dispatches that have them sitting idle more often than not.

Originally posted by rancke:
Well, I think the original question was "If (as canon claims) the Imperium designed the X-boats to minimize communication times in order to keep the Imperium together, and if (as canon also claims) the Imperium is presently straining at the seams because of communication problems, then how come the X-boat network has not been upgraded to jump-5 400 years ago and jump-6 a 100 years ago, at least along selected backbones?"

Well I'm pressed for time but a quick look back can't find that question at all, and certainly it was not the original thread here. In fact my quick scan seems to find you are the one arguing for the whole J6 upgrade idea if anyone.

Originally posted by rancke:
And the answer I've come up with is: Because the Imperium no longer need the X-boats for official business, having turned to the 'Navy-net' 400 years ago.

On that much at least we can agree, and even with J6 the distance was too much to properly rule even with the displacement of power to "local" Nobility.

Originally posted by rancke:
I admit that this doesn't explain why pressure from the public hasn't caused a update of the X-net, but at least there is no all-powerful Emperor or Imperial bureaucracy pushing for it. For the rest I say that the X-boat manufacturers lobby at Capital has been powerful enough to block any change in X-boat legislation and funding. I imagine they are doing this because the X-boats have become a huge boondoggle (with the manufacturers making unreasonable profits on the boats and being afraid that switching to jump-5 and jump-6 designs will cause a renegotiation of the contracts.)

I doubt there'd be much in the way of public demand for more than even a J2 comm system. Most of the public won't be interested in or know anyone beyond that range. The xboat route is mostly for business beyond that J2 and maybe as far as two hops on the J4 route. That and Travellers, something like the globe trotters of the early 19th C who always wanted the hometown newpaper where they were, even if the news was months old.

As for the supposed court influence that works. It could also be that the Navy gets the pick of all the high tech starport capacity first and all that the Scout service has left at the end of the day are the middling tech ones to build and maintain their own fleets, and the few high tech spots they do get are used for more useful craft for the Scout service, like the Donosev.

Anyway, I gotta go load up the ship and jump, see ya all in the new year.

 

[Pwyll]

well if humans have evolved to the point where we can withstand exposure to jumpspace, our issues regarding distribution of information are moot. ship design becomes irrelevant, we just shove the "pilot" through our jump portal with a box of holocrystals in his hands!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Let's instead call it useless information. Sure it's an interesting story but until the findings are in, and maybe not even then, it's just one of a few hundred billion personal interest pieces you'll find in the Imperium, like "Child survives 7 story fall from apartment window without a scratch." I remember first reading that dispatch (the Jumpspace sickness, not the child) and thinking, "that's interesting but how does it affect me, way out here in the Marches? It doesn't because I'm not sticking my head into Jumpspace. I wonder what the news net has on recent Corsair activity in the area, now that's news I can use."

I'm not going to argue against that, because it's a purely personal opinion. I will say that I consider it perfectly plausible that some high-ranking official or admiral in the Imperium would disagree with you about the importance of the event.

Well, I think the original question was "If (as canon claims) the Imperium designed the X-boats to minimize communication times in order to keep the Imperium together, and if (as canon also claims) the Imperium is presently straining at the seams because of communication problems, then how come the X-boat network has not been upgraded to jump-5 400 years ago and jump-6 a 100 years ago, at least along selected backbones?"

Well I'm pressed for time but a quick look back can't find that question at all, and certainly it was not the original thread here.

You're right. I read too much into Pwyll's suggestion on Dec 12th that "perhaps Emperors wouldn't WANT the Scout x-boat network going any faster than jump-4..." and took it to be an answer to that question ("Why is the X-boat network only jump-4?"). I've had that discussion before, you see.

In fact my quick scan seems to find you are the one arguing for the whole J6 upgrade idea if anyone.

I do argue for that, yes. But I got my arguments mixed up. I originally said two things (check Dec 12th): 1) IMTU the X-boats has jump-6 backbone routes, and 2) That I think that in the OTU the Imperial Bureaucracy uses the "NavyNet" rather than the X-boats to convey reports and orders.

What I didn't make clear originally, and which snuck into my arguments subsequently, is that I think that even given the NavyNet, it is thoroughly implausible that the OTU X-boat Network doesn't employ jump-6 ships along selected routes. The fact that the Imperial Bureaucracy has a viable alternative merely makes it not stark staring impossible that it hasn't been updated long, long ago. Hence the mix-up in arguments.

I doubt there'd be much in the way of public demand for more than even a J2 comm system. Most of the public won't be interested in or know anyone beyond that range. The xboat route is mostly for business beyond that J2 and maybe as far as two hops on the J4 route. That and Travellers, something like the globe trotters of the early 19th C who always wanted the hometown newpaper where they were, even if the news was months old.

Well, by public I did mean the thousands and thousands of millionaires and billionaires and Interstellar corporate managers all over the Imperium.

If you're right, and there is no real interest in events more than a few parsecs away, then we have to ask, why is there an X-boat network at all? The Imperium don't need it and the public don't want it, why pay the trillions of credits it costs?

Well, there's the boondoggle angle to fall back upon. And it would go some way to explain the odd X-boat routes. No one really cares where the X-boats go, as long as they go, get worn out, and a steady stream of replacements are bought.

As for the supposed court influence that works. It could also be that the Navy gets the pick of all the high tech starport capacity first and all that the Scout service has left at the end of the day are the middling tech ones to build and maintain their own fleets, and the few high tech spots they do get are used for more useful craft for the Scout service, like the Donosev.

If there's a demand for TL 15 shipyard capacity, a supply of TL 15 shipyard capacity will develop. It's been more than a century since the Imperium achieved TL 15. If the Scouts wanted jump-6 ships, they'd have jump-6 ships.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It isn't that there isn't need for an xmail system; it is that there isn't need for a FAST xmail system, when canonically, most freight moves pretty slow (J1 and J2, and certain major routes do J4 for very high value density high-margin cargoes).

Yes, orders probably move about J5.5. And even with moderate J4 routing, it's 42 jumps captial to regina... J6 (last I calculated) was more than half that. Under MT, with the reduced fuel, 3j4 couriers are doable (75% fuel, 5% JDrive, 3 % MDrive, 6% PP, 10% quarters and controls).

Using calibration points at J2 out on both ends, a J4 route through the reft is easily doable. (Mind you, that is charging 3500Cr/ton for refined fuel, assuming one sale per month, of the whole value load. (Realistically, probably sells for about Cr5000 per ton, accounting for overhead reductions in efficiency, lack of full sales volume, and maintiaining a crewed fuel dump at the CP.

At Cr 5K, a jump four freighter can JUST make a small profit under Bk7, and can occasionally make a useful one under Bk2/3. Also, note that a second jump DOUBLES all expenses, and halves the useful fuel load, pushing the costs to around KCr12.

Under MT, the costs work out to around Cr 2500/ton for refined, and much better profit margins.


But, since it is profitable to have the cp's for J4 commerce, (even if just barely), it is probable that those CP's exist connecting the islands to the imperium and the claw. I suspect J6 routes make the J6 to the CP, (from 4 Pc in, lots of choices), hop to the CP at one end, hop to the islands. Cross the islands, then jump to the far CP, and onto the far side. After all the islands are separated only by J7 from the imperium. For a J6 route, that's easily affordable for a government, moderately affordable for a megacorp; J6 routes do not make commercial profits for cargo, tho'. (GT's pricing scheme makes that wholly different under GT...GT is NOT the OTU... at least not economically.)

But for a data route, the islands are a wonderful shortcut: if it is worth the data getting there faster, it is worth a J2 tender carying fuel along. (That tender could, for a 200 Td J6 scout craft, be a Far Trader with nought but fuel aboard... as cargo. Cost, then is about KCr2.5 per ton...paying the cargo cost round trip, as you are really only paying the fuel cost for the J2 out and the PP fuel burned to that point).

Such "Short line" J6 routes make far more sense that the much longer (and less needed) J6 around the horn routes. (It's stil about 30 jumps capital to Regina. 20 to get across the reft sector, from capital, and another 10 or so to get to regina.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Back to the subject of the efficiency and placement of the existing Jump Routes, here is my orbital view on how the Routes got to be the way they are.


Once Arbellatra issued her orders to create the X-Boat Network, including an imperative to complete the project as quickly as possible, the Scouts got to business. Their greatest minds drew out a complete and ideal network of Routes throughout the Imperium. When it came time to deploy the network, its setup literally grew outwards from Capital/Core. As it did so, the wave of news of which worlds would and would not be X-Boat Terminus Worlds spread like a shockwave. Megacorporate officers and nobles of every rank besieged every Sector and Subsector office of the Scouts with protests of every level (from pleas to threats). Because there was no way to communicate the complaints back to Capital/Core in time and still hold to Arbellatra's ruthless schedule, the Sector Scout Administrators and local Dukes cooperated to hammer out an alternate pathway system, one that accommodated local needs and interests. By the time the news of the alterations made it back to Capital/Core, it was too late, the network was in place and operating, successfully in most cases. Arbellatra thoughtfully went along with the desires of her nobility and wealthiest citizens (many of who were Solomani Movement adherents), and chose not to force the Routes back to the originally planned layout. Over the centuries, a few changes were made, here and there, as some worlds gained and lost influence, but by and large, the Routes have remained stable.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Once Arbellatra issued her orders to create the X-Boat Network, including an imperative to complete the project as quickly as possible, the Scouts got to business. Their greatest minds drew out a complete and ideal network of Routes throughout the Imperium. When it came time to deploy the network, its setup literally grew outwards from Capital/Core. As it did so, the wave of news of which worlds would and would not be X-Boat Terminus Worlds spread like a shockwave. Megacorporate officers and nobles of every rank besieged every Sector and Subsector office of the Scouts with protests of every level (from pleas to threats). Because there was no way to communicate the complaints back to Capital/Core in time and still hold to Arbellatra's ruthless schedule, the Sector Scout Administrators and local Dukes cooperated to hammer out an alternate pathway system, one that accommodated local needs and interests. By the time the news of the alterations made it back to Capital/Core, it was too late, the network was in place and operating, successfully in most cases.

It sounds like you think of X-boat routes as some sort of railway. This is something I've noticed in other cases, such as the silly claim in BtC that a war on Feri had cut the X-boat link between Roup and Boughene. An X-boat route is not fixed trail; it is a string of X-boat stations no further than 4 parsecs apart. If two X-boat stations are 4 or less parsecs apart, they're part of a link (which is why dog-legs in the X-boat routes are silly). Feri isn't on the X-boat route between Roup and Boughene. Rather, most X-boats would jump directly between Roup and Boughene with an occasional X-boat jumping to Feri (think of the Feri link as a spur line).

Anyway, to get back to the main point, changing an X-boat route is extremely easy. All it takes is the political will. That part may be difficult, but if Arbellatra wanted a link changed, all she had to do would be to get a carrier to move an X-boat tender to another system. There is no practical impediment to changing it, no "we've already laid the tracks" sort of argument.

As for a route being succesful, by Arbellatra's standard a route was successful if it got her orders out to her dukes and their reports to her back as fast as possible. And an average of 2.6 parsecs per week is far from being as fast as possible.

Arbellatra thoughtfully went along with the desires of her nobility and wealthiest citizens (many of who were Solomani Movement adherents), and chose not to force the Routes back to the originally planned layout. Over the centuries, a few changes were made, here and there, as some worlds gained and lost influence, but by and large, the Routes have remained stable.

But having all sorts of odd kinks in the X-boat system and maximizing transmission speed is not mutually exclusive. Having three worlds lying two parsecs apart all being part of the network doesn't impose an extra week's transmission time between the first and the third world; it merely means that some X-boats go from the first world to the second and some go directly to the third, bypassing the second. Similarly, there is really no such thing as a dog-leg in X-boat routes; it will always be possible to jump from the first to the third world, and if you want to get the news to the third world as fast as possible, that's what you'll do with some of the boats.



Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans makes a good point asbout the "Doglegs & Spurs".

I hadn't considered a link between bogene & roup, cause of the scout base, but it would add (assuming daily two way service) 16 more xboats. But looking at that set, roup SHOULD be serving Efate directly, too, adding another 16 boats.

Now, IMTU, Jenge is NOT on the XBoat route, even tho the line runs through it, as IMTU, that line is Regina to Extolay; Jenge is served by scout couriers... which cost half what an XBoat does. perhaps roup/boughene

Assumng a 2-week-on 1-week-off schedule for pilots, and daily jump outs, you need 8 boats at each end (total 16) and 24 pilots total PER LINK. Assuming scouts get paid a flat rate pay of Cr 1000 per month, that's the cheap part.
Plus you need colliers, a downside office, and a tender for each connected system. The expensive part is the XBoats themselves. Shorter links could be served by 16-20 type S couriers with upgraded computers, at a significant fraction of the costs, like roup/feri/boughene (2j2).

IMTU, That's about exactly what happens. Short links use the J2 Type S for savings. (The extra type S's assumes no tender, and having to make orbit, thus shoving the individual cyle from 6-8 days to 8-10 days).

But, aside from politcal concerns or a really skimpy budget, roup-efate shold be there, and shifting roup/ferri/boughene to scout couriers would pay for it.

After all, Aren't the routes shown on the maps canon? <Nudge at Hans>