unbroken xboat

[Elliot]

As to the X boat routes being constructed in 624 and not before - I think this falls into the trap of thinking that the Imperium is a static pre-planned entity. 'Historically' speaking this is clearly not the case. There is nothing to say that x boat routes were not re-drawn as time and technology went on.

An example is the English road system (I say that because its where i come from). For centuries people going from London to the north travelled on the old Roman road that goes east to Peterborough and then up north - the road deliniated the Roman territory.

In the 1950s the state built the Motorway system that was more logical. The new road north was the M1.

This didn't mean, however, that the great north road came to an end - it became the A1 and is as busy today as it always was.

I think the Imperium must be similar - it has existed for about the same time as England so as new technology progresses (i.e. in J space) new communications routes get 'cut'. However, this does not mean the old routes stop, just that quicker routes exist.

 

[jrients]

Originally posted by Elliot:
As to the X boat routes being constructed in 624 and not before - I think this falls into the trap of thinking that the Imperium is a static pre-planned entity.

Excellent point. Does anyone know how X-boats circa 624 differ from those in service 5 centuries later?

 

[Burocrate]

RainOfSteel:

Love the adventure seed. So much so, that I started to type a few additions even as I was stea...admiring it. I just have a compulsive need to have six options each a

nd every time I see this format.

3. Truth here is very hard to track down. The commander of the X-Boat tender was a bad apple; he sold the location of the Scout cache to the local pirates. The price for the security codes was even higher. Not all of the tender’s crew was involved. He offered them four choices: open airlock, barren rock, or life as a slave or a pirate. The commander knew the life of a pirate would be dangerous so after the X-boat and tender were “parted-out” on the black market, he took the money and ran. The good captain now lives on a high TL world in retirement under an assumed identity.

6. The commander is alive, just barely. He was left for dead and is now orchestrating a blood vendetta against the pirates from the wreckage of an old 200dTon Far Trader. The astrogation officer also survived by “playing opossum”, he follows the commander’s orders while using locals to do the legwork. The commander just wants revenge, his plan is to gather as many weapons and explosives to create a killing field. Once all his traps and fields of fire are established he plans on leaking his survival and location to the pirates. When they come to finish the job the commander plans to take as many as he can with him into the afterlife. The PC’s investigation should turn up clues to the pirates, the survival of the commander and his location. (Funny how PCs always show up just when a battle royale is about to break out.)

**

** For inspiration think of the Clint Eastwood westerns where he becomes vengeance personified, add in the trap fortified “Old battle field” scene from the Conan the Barbarian film and use the two grounded ships from CT Adventure: Twilight Peaks as the location for this epic battle.

Feel free to use/modify/ignore as you like.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by jrients:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elliot:
As to the X boat routes being constructed in 624 and not before - I think this falls into the trap of thinking that the Imperium is a static pre-planned entity.

Excellent point. Does anyone know how X-boats circa 624 differ from those in service 5 centuries later? </font>[/QUOTE]IMTU the X-boat network has a 'backbone' structure connecting Capital with all sector capitals. The backbone utilize jump-6 X-boats, with the occasional jump-5 and jump-4 boat to make the distance come out to an optimum (i.e. if one sector capital is 25 parsecs from Capital, the backbone route connecting them will consist of five links, but depending on how subsector capitals and other important worlds in between are located, this could be five jump-5 or three jump-5, one jump-6, and one jump-4, etc.).

BTW, I believe that in the Classic Era the Imperial bureaucracy uses Imperial Navy couriers to convey reports and orders. This is one reason why the X-boat network hasn't been upgraded to jump-6 across the board. TPTB don't need the X-boat network anymore.


Hans

 

[Pwyll]

isn't Imperiallines the Royal jump-6 intelligence network? something like that.

perhaps Emperors wouldn't WANT the Scout x-boat network going any faster than jump-4....

 

[Anthony]

One of the biggest problems with the X-boat network going at J-4 is that it simply isn't that expensive to build a J-6 backbone; it's easily practical for a megacorp, and not that hard for a smaller regional corp.

The other problem with the X-boat network is that it's terribly designed even given a J-4 limit. Cleaning up fishy links could probably increase its speed by 25% without any improvement in hardware.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Pwyll:
isn't Imperiallines the Royal jump-6 intelligence network? something like that.

Originally Imperiallines was the name of a small sector-wide company that covered the Spinward Marches as part of an Imperial covert courier network. Other (unnamed) companies covered the other sectors. Over the years the name seems to've evolved to mean the entire network.

Perhaps Emperors wouldn't WANT the Scout X-boat network going any faster than jump-4....

The problem with that is that it doesn't work like that. It just makes the X-boat network a huge, worthless money pit. The Imperial Navy definitely has jump-6 couriers (that's canonical). The 13 Megacorporations presumably have them too. If that would give them a commercial advantage (and it probably does), then lesser companies will want to nullify that anvantage, and if all the companies in a sector clubbed together they could easily afford couriers of their own. And if the news services of half a dozen high-population worlds could get a 10% circulation increase out of timely news from Capital, they could pay for couriers of their own.


Hans

 

[Pwyll]

Originally posted by rancke:
The problem with that is that it doesn't work like that.

well, this is the only point with which i really disagree.

there are lots of reasons for running an official info network at jump-4. particularly if the folks who run jump-6 networks don't share (perhaps to maintain the very advantage that it gives).

</font>

• its cheap</font>
• it can follow the same route as a lot of commerce</font>
• info you need is not being conveyed by the others</font>
• the Emperor said so (coz he wants to get his info faster than official channels)</font>

perhaps there are other reasons.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Pwyll:
There are lots of reasons for running an official info network at jump-4. particularly if the folks who run jump-6 networks don't share (perhaps to maintain the very advantage that it gives).

The problem is that if it gives that much of an advantage, anyone who can afford to would establish their own information network. And if it doesn't give that much of an advantage, why bother?

</font>

• its cheap</font>
• it can follow the same route as a lot of commerce</font>
• info you need is not being conveyed by the others</font>
• the Emperor said so (coz he wants to get his info faster than official channels)</font>

perhaps there are other reasons.

Well, some of that commerce is jump-6 traffic. (Remember the jump-6 drop tank passenger service that was extended to Regina in 1105? It must have been extended from somewhere, mustn't it?) Not a lot, because jump-6 is very expensive, but when it comes to information, that doesn't signify. Postulate a single jump-6 passenger route from Capital to Mora (via Vland and Deneb, of course) and the X-boat service between Capital and Mora becomes irrelevant.
As for the Emperor wanting his private messages to go faster than official messages, they don't anyway. As I mentioned before, there exists canonically a way for the Imperial Bureaucracy to convey messages at jump-6: Navy couriers.


Hans

 

[Pwyll]

"Postulate a single jump-6 passenger route from Capital to Mora (via Vland and Deneb, of course)"

why? its expensive and doesn't distribute to all worlds along the way or surrounding.

perhaps the scouts do deploy some jump-6 ships. there is still the need to distribute, and thus the need for smaller jumps.

the reason i bring up 2 different rates for the flow of information has to do with something i read about the assassination of strephon but don't remember clearly. but it went something like the duke of regina taking actions which one might assume he had knowledge of the assassination before TNS reported it.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Pwyll:
"Postulate a single jump-6 passenger route from Capital to Mora (via Vland and Deneb, of course)"

Why? its expensive and doesn't distribute to all worlds along the way or surrounding.

Because between the class of people rich enough to own their own jump-6 yacht and the people too poor to afford to pay Crimp35,000 per jump for jump-6 service, there is a sizable number of multi-millionaires who can afford it. It makes sense to me that some people would be willing to pay through the nose in order to get to their destination twice as fast as otherwise. Especially when the trip is one that will take months in any case.

And it does distribute to all worlds along the way. A trip to a world 20 parsecs away takes four jumps if you can go 18 of them by jump-6. Jump-4 service would take 5 jumps. Any distance over 20 parsecs and the jump-6 service is faster (And it is also faster at some of the distances below that, of course).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Pwyll:
The reason I bring up 2 different rates for the flow of information has to do with something i read about the assassination of strephon but don't remember clearly. but it went something like the duke of regina taking actions which one might assume he had knowledge of the assassination before TNS reported it.

Oh, I'm not saying that the two different rates of information flow isn't canonical; I'm saying that canon in this case contains inherent contradictions.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The J4 route is, IMHO, a relic of the tech base of the imperium.

A J4 route system is easier to maintain, and in the frontiers, les nodal in its required maintenace locations.

the J6 networks are, IMTU at least, focused for special purposes. The navy doesn't actually maintain J6 network; it maintains J6 couriers operating to/from certain commmand bases to "Predicted patrol positions".

The Imperiallines route is for royal chain orders, and keeping the archdukes and sector dukes apprised in advance of pulic knowledge, so as to formulate plans. Also for them to pass orders to the Sector Grand Admiral.

The scouts don't have need of J6 for thier jobs, and when they do nneed it, they send it by navy anyway.

Certain megacorps find it to their advantage to maintain 6 nets of their own, for both passenger and information value. Most cargos aren't affected by speed issues, but a few are/will-be.
YMMV.

BTW, I never bought into the GT pricing scheme, so IMTU, thos j6 routes are NOWHERE near as expensive.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
The J6 networks are, IMTU at least, focused for special purposes. The navy doesn't actually maintain J6 network; it maintains J6 couriers operating to/from certain commmand bases to "Predicted patrol positions".

What you do in your TU is your affair. But if you want to get back to the OTU, I suggest you ponder the implication of three canonical dispatches that made it from Terra to Regina in respectively 346, 375, and 365 days.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/calender.pl?action=ny&year=1112

(Hint: Getting from Terra to Regina in 346 days seems to require an average speed of slightly over 6 parsecs/week... Even 375 days is fast work.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
BTW, I never bought into the GT pricing scheme, so IMTU, thos j6 routes are NOWHERE near as expensive.

So IYTU jump-6 ships are nowhere near as expensive as in the OTU?


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:
What you do in your TU is your affair. But if you want to get back to the OTU, I suggest you ponder the implication of three canonical dispatches that made it from Terra to Regina in respectively 346, 375, and 365 days.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/calender.pl?action=ny&year=1112


Hans

But if we are to believe that and take your approach then the OTU must have Instantaneous communication (and by default perhaps instantaneous travel) across that distance. Check the last report on the page. It's stated as reported at Terra/Sol on 142-1112 and the Regina/Regina date of release is 142-1112! Quick! Detain that Xboat! It has instant infinity drives!

<ahem> sorry, seriously, all, and I mean ALL canon must be taken with a grain of salt and liberally spiced with uncommon sense. In this case the dates don't work so ignore them and correct them for YTU and sleep soundly knowing you have done your bit to make the OTU that much safer

 

[far-trader]

Just in case anybody is interested in a realistic ballpark figure for the actual transit time for an Xboat message from Terra/Sol to Regina/Regina I did a quick estimate based on the routes shown on my CT maps for the Marches and Rim sectors and guesstimating for the sectors between. It looks like about 138 weeks but could be as little as maybe 101 weeks.

Of course this doesn't match* the couple of canon references I have at hand. First is the Library Data entry for Express Boats in the BBB which says "Outlying worlds... stand nearly four years from the capital... " and then goes on to say an average of 2.6 parsecs per week is the expected speed for the Xboat network.

The other reference from the same book, in the Traveller's Guide to the Imperium section says "The Xboat network makes the edge of the Imperium about 44 weeks out from the core and capital."

Now we could reconcile these statements IF we take the first to mean a round trip communication time of nearly four years from core/capital to the frontier for non-Xboat communications.

Using the same books stated Imperium of 20 sectors (and using an averaged 4 sector high by 5 sector wide Imperium of 160 parsecs by 160 parsecs) gives us a run to the border of between 80 and 130 parsecs. Divide that by the 2.6 parsec average and we have between 30 and 50 weeks. The 44 weeks for the second quote above falls right in the middle. so it seems about right.

Anyway I have no way of knowing how the people making the TNS blurbs decided on the dates, but they could easily have made some simple errors. I doubt they actually counted the number of links in the published Xboat routes between points A and B which would have been the proper way.

* well it comes close actually, counting 4 sectors up and 4 sectors over and cutting the corner of the sector at the turn (and counting it as half) and using the 2.6 parsec avearage it comes to about 118.5 weeks, right in the middle of my high and low guesstimates

Obviously that 20 sector Imperium refers to before the Rim and Marches were included.

 

[aramis]

using the following routing methodology, I come up with a minimal J4 route, NOT CROSSING THE RIFT, from Capital to Regina:

Method: Descending priority of target world within roughly 90 degrees of desired course. Data from Atlas of the Imperium. In any given tier, source of fuel preferred over no fuel. High pop preferred over non-high-pop.
-A J4
-A J3
-B J4
-B J3
-C J4
-C J3

Core Sector nodes (8): 2118 (Capital), 1916, 1713, 1410, 1008, 0806, 0505, 0402 (Apge)
Lishun Sector Nodes (1): 0140 (Vodyr)
Vland Sector Nodes (14): 3037, 2636, 2733, 2530, 2227, 1825 (Karfir), 1822 (Kasear), 1520, 1717 (Vland), 1414, 1211, 0909, 0508, 0205
Corridor Sector Nodes(10): 3106 {1}, 2806, 2405 (Plunge), 2205 {2}, 1904, 1606 (Khukish), 1309, 1112, 0714, 0313 (Yurbity)
Deneb Sector Nodes (9): 3112, 2813, 2413, 2011, 1609, 1309, 0907, 0508, 0209
Regina Sector Nodes(5): 3110, 2712,2410, 2110,1910 (regina)

47 nodes, 46 hops, modal travel tiome, assuming couriers jumping same day as arrival, 46 weeks.

{1} chosen OUT OF PRIORITY due to scoutbase and course needs.
{2} avoiding 6 Pc of the vargr border

 

[far-trader]

Hi Aramis. Only having the SMC handy to compare your notes to published Xboat routes they of course doesn't match but...

I think you made the most logical route choice for that part and your preferences for the rest make good sense too. Of course with random worlds and random Xboat routes the canon choices are bound to produce less (sometimes much less) than ideal routes. I like your approach better and it does do the core to frontier in close to the stated 44 hops.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
But if we are to believe that and take your approach then the OTU must have Instantaneous communication (and by default perhaps instantaneous travel) across that distance. Check the last report on the page. It's stated as reported at Terra/Sol on 142-1112 and the Regina/Regina date of release is 142-1112! Quick! Detain that Xboat! It has instant infinity drives!

And what approach would that be? That before one discards a piece of canon, one tries to come up with a reasonable explanation for seeming inconsistencies, and only if that is not possible does one change it (and then cahnge it as little as possible to make it fit). I'm pretty sure that the original is dated as sent off on 142-1111. But even if it was 142-1112 in the original issue of Challenge, it seems a pretty reasonable assumption that it was supposed to be 142-1111.

...all, and I mean ALL canon must be taken with a grain of salt and liberally spiced with uncommon sense. In this case the dates don't work so ignore them and correct them for YTU and sleep soundly knowing you have done your bit to make the OTU that much safer

What makes you think the dates don't work (Assuming the third dispatch was sent off on 142-1111)? Using a jump-6 courier network it is possible, although the 346 day run is freakishly fast. You have to assume that the Navy has couriers standing by to jump out the moment the previous courier in the chain arrives and that the data is transferred very quickly. For the 346 day run an uncommonly large number of the couriers has to jump significantly 'short', that is, their jumps must take considerably less than the average time.

However, if you assume the Navy uses pairs of couriers rather than singletons, you shave an average of 6 hours off each jump, which helps a lot. (No, there's no canonical source that says the Navy uses courier pairs. But it's a useful idea and there is nothing that says they don't).


Hans