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Understanding Classic Traveller Combat Damage

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I was speaking with an acquaintance today about Classic Traveller, and I discovered, even though my conversation partner had played CT for decades, that he didn't really understand the damage rules. I suspect he house-ruled the game at some point in the distant past and has been playing it that way for so long that his memory has been fooled into thinking that's the way the game is played by the book.

I wonder how symptomatic that is--thinking the game is one way when it is really another.

I think the CT combat damage system is brilliant. It's got so much edge and grit to it. Most damage has potential to take a character out, but, yet, there's plenty of room for the PC to not be damaged too. This forces players to respect combat and move cautiously, from cover to cover, during a game.





TWO WAYS TO APPLY DAMAGE

CT applies damage in two ways. All damage is summed and then taken from a single physical stat on the victim, with the stat chosen randomly. Or, damage is thrown, with the defending player applying the damage to the physical stats of his character in groups of points equal to that shown on the dice.

As an example, let's look at a victim with physical stats 867.

The victim is hit with a weapon that does 3D damage. Damage is rolled, getting: 2, 5, 1.

The first method above, commonly referred to as the "First Blood Rule", would apply 8 points of damage to one of the victims stats with the stat chosen randomly. If we rolled STR randomly, then the victim would have stats 067 after damage is applied.

The second method used in Classic Traveller described above has the player playing the victim pick and chose how each damage die will be applied to the three stats. So, a player could take 5 points from STR, 1 point from STR, and 2 points from END, leaving the victim with stats 165.





WHEN TO USE EACH DAMAGE METHOD

How you chose which damage method to use is simple. If a victim is at full health, with no damage having been applied to him, you use the First Blood Rule. Otherwise, if the victim's stats are less than maximum, you use the other method.

Simple as that.

So, if our victim has stats 867, and 3D is applied, with the dice being 2, 5, 1, then all damage is totaled and taken from a single stat randomly.

If our victim with stats 867 has taken damage previously, leaving him with stats 857, then the second method of damage distribution is used (where single, whole die of damage is applied at the defender's option).





WHY THIS IS BRILLIANT

This system is brilliant because, at any time, damage can take a character out. Yet, this is unlikely to happen most of the time. So, a fine balance is maintained keeping PCs alive but facing the prospect that, in response to any attack, the PC can be laid out unconscious, severely wounded, or even dead.





WHAT DOES LOWERED STATS MEAN?

If a character has taken damage, but no stat has been reduced to zero, this does not mean that the character is troubled with a wound. At worst, the character is winded, tired, bruised, scratched, or otherwise hampered with very minor wounds.

If a stat check is needed, and the character's stat is lowered due to wounds in this fashion, the character uses the full stat (not the lowered number). Likewise, encumbrance is based off of the character's full STR, even if STR is lowered due to wounds in this fashion. If DEX is lowered due to wounds, this does not affect the character's gun combat bonus or penalty.

The lowering of physical stats to 1 or higher really means little in the way of actual wounds. It's a somewhat abstract system for keeping track of how much damage a character can take, akin to, but different than, hit points used in D&D. Think of it as you do the abstract methods you find in first person shooter computer games where your health is lowered and gradually raises itself as you play. No effect is applied until you reach zero hit points in those types of games. In Classic Traveller, the method is similar.





WHEN WOUNDS MATTER

As described above, wounds mean little until one stat is reduced to zero or lower. When this happens, a true wound is indicated.

One stat at zero is enough to take the character out of the fight, but it also indicates a wound that will heal fairly easily and quickly. With one stat at zero, the character is incapacitated, unconscious, unable to act.

Two physical stats at zero is the point at which the character is considered to have suffered a serious wound. Two stats at zero indicates the character has suffered a deep stab wound, a gunshot wound, serious physical trauma, and the like.

When all three stats are reduced to zero or below, the character is considered dead.





READING BETWEEN THE LINES

What I've described above are the "official" Classic Traveller damage rules. But, there are several sections in CT that encourages GMs to tinker with the rules, customizing them to taste. Without going so far as to create a house rule, one can "get the gist" of what these rules means as written.

-- One stat at zero, as written, renders the victim unconscious. Really, what this rule does is incapacitate the character. Does he really need to be unconscious? No. He just needs to be unable to act. Instead of unconscious, maybe the character is stunned--conscious but might as well be unconscious. Maybe the character is conscious but completely unable to react, liking laying on the ground, gasping for air, after being close to an explosion.

-- Once one stat is reduced to zero, it is then that wounded levels are used for dice checks and things like measuring encumbrance. Thus, if a character with stats 867 is reduced to 067 due to gunshot damage, the GM can rule that the actual gunshot was caught by the target's cloth armor but the impact knocked the victim down and rendered him unconscious for a bit. When the character regains consciousness, his stats are returned to halfway between the wounded and maximum state. So the 067 physical stats are raised to 467. It is here that the character should be considered to have a STR 4 for encumbrance and dice checks because he is recuperating from a pretty mean bruise on his chest.

-- Special situations like broken bones (a person can be totally conscious but unable to move with a broken leg), or blood loss, or other types of specific damage should be handled by the GM. A quick and easy rule I used to use is to apply a special situation to the victim when the successful attack throw showed natural doubles. Otherwise, I'd just follow the rules as written. So, in our continuing example, if the gunshot that rendered our victim to 067 was achieved on an attack throw that totaled 9 but was summed to that number with modifiers and a dice throw that showed two fours (+1 for skill), I would apply some special aspect to the damage (blood loss, chance of a broken bone, hindered or negated movement, etc). On the other hand, if that attack throw of 9 was achieved by a dice throw of 5, 3, +1 for skill, I'd just apply damage normally with no special effects.

In this way, there's a small chance that the victim will suffer some ill effect not specifically covered by the rules. And, I'd scale this effect along with the type of damage done. Damage that doesn't reduce a stat to zero might encourage me to apply some temporary hindrance to the character (like a punch to the face making the victim's eye close for a bit). Damage that reduces one stat to zero might influence me to impose some longer hindrance, as in a half movement penalty due to a sprained ankle until the character rests.

Damage that reduces two stats to zero would net a more serious special effect. Here, I'd rule about a broken bone, or scare the player with blood loss, or describe some horrible internal injuries that require surgery soonest.

Of course, this type of special damage would only be applied if natural doubles were thrown on a successful attack throw.
 
A fist fight example.





The March Harrier is stranded on Alell due to the fact that none of the ship's compliment has been able to obtain an exit visa--permission to lift the ship from the planet.

Page 26 of the Traveller Adventure presents sample crewmembers for the Harrier. The ship's captain (physical stats 5A7) and engineer (physical stats 876) sit in a startown bar on the world, miserable, both irritated at the red-taped needed to obtain the government's permission to leave.

A fight breaks out between the two. The Harrier's engineer is an old Imperial Navy rating who is used to venting his frustrations with his fists. The captain, a 24 year merchant veteran, is no novice to this type of diplomacy. The two, angered by the situation, go at each other.



R-1
The engineer swings first, but misses.

The captain jumps up from his seat and retaliates. The captain connects but the engineer, ready for the fight, blocks the blow (colorful description as the captain also missed on the dice throw).



R-2
The captain swings again, and again is blocked (I'm rolling real dice as I write).

The engineer tries to kick the captain, but the captain steps out of the way.



R-3
The captain swings again, totally missing the engineer.

The engineer takes the opening and lands one right in the captain's face. I rolled natural doubles on the attack throw, so I'll get creative with the damage.

This is the first time the captain's been hit, so the first blood rule is used. Damage for fists is 1D. I throw max damage of 6 points. This is applied, randomly, to the captain's three physical stats, and that random stat is the captain's DEX rating.

The captain's physical stats of 5A7 are reduced to 547.

Because I rolled doubles on the attack, I'll get creative with the damage and say the captain takes a step back, staggers a bit, fishes in his mouth with his tongue, then spits out a tooth. He smiles at the engineer, blood running down his lip, front tooth gone.



R-4
In a rage now, the captain swings as hard as he can at the engineer, but his target ducks under his blow.

Again the engineer retaliates, connecting again, but hardly hurting the captain (I really missed...being colorful again).



R-5
The engineer tries again. It's a clean miss this time.

The captain ducks under that blow and goes for the engineer's gut with a one-two punch. But the engineer is too quick for him.



R-6
Frustrated, the captain wails after the engineer, but his crewmate swings around, 180 degrees, and throws a chop at the base of the captain's head above his shoulders. He connects again, doing 2 points of damage.

Classic Traveller combat rounds are simultaneous, not instantaneous (although I've house ruled instantaneous rounds in the past). This means all sides get a chance at attack before damage is applied at the end of the round.

So, while the engineer is knocking the captain at the base of his skull, the captain uses his elbow, jabbing it into the engineer's chest. But, the engineer is not where the captain hoped he would be--not directly behind him. He stands off to the side, and the captain's elbow jab connects with air only.

Since the captain has been damaged earlier, he can now apply any damage at his discretion. The captain takes the 2 points of damage from his STR, making his stats 347.



R-7
At this point, the engineer is getting tired (due to the Endurance rule) and suffers a -2 penalty on his attack throws.

The captain swings around with his right hand blazing, and, for the first time, smacks the engineer clean in the jaw.

The engineer throws up his hands to blocks, is too slow, and his head is forced to face his shoulder (his attack throw missed).

Now, it's the first time the engineer has been attacked. The First Blood rule is used. 1D of damage is thrown for 5 points to the engineer's STR stat.

The engineer's stats are reduced to 376.

Note that I didn't roll natural doubles on the captain's hit, so I didn't apply some special damage effect.



R-8
Although winded, the engineer wastes no time. With both hands he grabs the each of his opponent's shoulders, pulls the captain to him, and head butts him. (The attack misses.) But, it's the engineer who screams out in pain. It wasn't a smart move to hit the man with his face just after he'd been hit.

Smiling his bloody smile, at these close quarters, the captain brings his knee up towards the engineer's groin. A problem, though, is that the captain is no longer moving as swiftly as he was at the start of the fight, now starting to feel the fatigue of a bar brawl too (the Endurance rule kicks in for the captain). His knee connects, but misses the engineer's groin as he shifts his weight at the last second (missed the attack by 1 point).



R-9
The engineer throws a slug to the captain's kidney and is blocked.

The captain counters with a left handed swing at the right side of the engineer's head. Again he connects, but weakly, and his hands slides off the man in all the sweat (missed by 1 point again).


R-10
The engineer comes at the captain's kidney again. Again the captain protects himself.

The captain swings, weakly, then steps back. No contact.



R-11
The engineer steps close again, a jab to the captain's face.

The captain ducks right, then power drives with his left, but is blocked.



R-12
The engineer fakes left, then swings right, hard, connecting with the captain's throat and lower chin. (He hits!)

And, the captain just staggers backward (he missed).

Engineer damages the captain again for 5 points. With stats 347, the captain has no choice. He must take the damage on his END score, or the fight is over.

The captain, staggered, is now at 342.



R-13
Not waiting to see how the captain will react, the engineer tries a double punch, but the captain still has enough sense about him to step left, out of his attacker's path.

But, that also leaves him in no position to counter punch (he missed).



R-14
Again, the captain swings and misses.

Again, the engineer blocks and counters and is himself blocked.

The two are very tired now, both starting to stagger.



R-15
The captain misses.

The engineer connects but does not damage (misses).



R-16
The captain weakly punches.

The engineer weaky retaliates.



R-17
A gust of power, second wind, eminates from the engineer. He throws his head at the captain's torso, grabbing him, in a hug, and begins pounding in the captain's sides (he hits with doubles!).

It's all the captain can do to hold off this bear-hug attack (he doesn't hit.).

The engineer does another 5 points of damage. Now, the captain is in trouble. The fight is over. Just to keep the damage from becoming serious (with two stats at zero), the captain reduces his DEX from 4 to 0, and takes the other point on STR, leaving the captain with stats 201.

The kidney punches land hard on the captain's sides. He stiffens suddenly, his right hand arcing to his side, his head facing the ceiling, mouth arched in a cry.

He falls on one knee, as the tired engineer, dripping with sweat, staggers backward, raises his fist, and knocks the captain's lights out.

The captain takes the blow square in the face. A moment later, he lies crumpled on the floor.

The engineer staggers to the nearest table, grabs the open beer, takes a swing, then pours the rest over his head, shaking like a dog, to keep himself conscious.

Then, he sits down in the chair to look at what he'd done, and think about finding a new position on another vessel.

Maybe another vessel with an approved exit visa.
 
Why did that fight take so long?

If you look at the characters I referenced, neither was a brawler. Neither had skill. And, the captain's STR made him -2 to hit right off the bat.

The captain could take more damage than the engineer, but the engineer needed an 8 to hit vs. the captain's 10.

Then, once the endurance rule kicked in for both characters, the engineer needed a 10 to hit vs. the captain's 12.

They fought for over 4 minutes (15 second combat rounds), which is why I kept describing them, at the end, as staggering around, with weak, half-hearted blows, sweat soaking their skin.



Note that I didn't "make up" anything in that fight. I rolled real dice as I wrote. I was as in the dark about who would win as you were.

Had either character had some skill in fighting (Brawling skill), I suspect the fight would have been much, much shorter.
 
Uh, I always used the "First blood" rule and applied all the first damage taken to a random stat.

But after that I rolled for a lump sum and let the player spread it around as best as he could.

I know, I'm heretical, flog me as you will.
 
Why did that fight take so long?

If you look at the characters I referenced, neither was a brawler. Neither had skill. And, the captain's STR made him -2 to hit right off the bat.

The captain could take more damage than the engineer, but the engineer needed an 8 to hit vs. the captain's 10.

Then, once the endurance rule kicked in for both characters, the engineer needed a 10 to hit vs. the captain's 12.

They fought for over 4 minutes (15 second combat rounds), which is why I kept describing them, at the end, as staggering around, with weak, half-hearted blows, sweat soaking their skin.



Note that I didn't "make up" anything in that fight. I rolled real dice as I wrote. I was as in the dark about who would win as you were.

Had either character had some skill in fighting (Brawling skill), I suspect the fight would have been much, much shorter.

Ah, crap! I forgot to use the Armor and Range modifiers (I was focussed on explaining damage, not attack modifiers).

In this fight, both participants would have received another +2 bonus to hit: +1 DM for neither wearing armor and +1 for short range.

At the end, when the head butts and bear hugs come into play, range would have been close, meaning +3 to hit.

Even after the END penalties for weakened blows, this would have changed things. The captain would have needed a 10+ vs the engineer's 8+.

I know I rolled a lot of near misses for the captain early on. Had I used these modifiers, I think the captain would have won this fight.

As I said, I was focussed on explaining damage--not showing all the modifiers. You already know what those are.







HOW ABOUT GUNS?

Of course, using gun combat as an example rather than a bar brawl would have resulted in a much quicker fight, too.

Let's go back to the Traveller Adventure. The ship's engineer just beat the crap out of the captain. The captain is the one who brought the Vargr, Gvoudzon, along, way back on Aramis.

Gvoudzon, in his Vargr mind, has just seen the leader of the pack lose some charisma--the captain's been beaten. It's prefectly clear to the Vargr that, if he kills the captain's attacker (the engineer has since quit and left the crew of the ship without an enginner), he'll gain charisma himself. Gvoudzon thinks he might even become captain himself, once the other see what a leader he can be.

So, secretly, the tracks the ship's ex-engineer across Alell. The first attack is somewhat botched, and the engineer gets away with his life. Gvoudzon, though, is relentless. His goal is set.

Out of the housing complex the engineer runs. Gvoudzon, instead of following outright, moves up the steps to the second story. Looking out the window, he sees the engineer run across the field.

Here's Gvoudzon from pg. 27 of the Traveller Adventure.

Physical stats: 788
Rifle-1

Equipment:
Rifle
Telescopic sight
3 ammo clips



The engineer from pg. 26 of the Traveller Adventure.

Physical stats: 876
AutoPistol-0

Equipment:
AutoPistol, modified for full auto.
Shoulder stock
Electronic sight.
1 extended ammo clip (30 rds.)
Cloth Armor



Again, I'll roll real dice as I write. This time, I'll pay attention to all modifiers too.



R-0
Range: Medium

The ship's ex-engineer is running through a field of waist high grass. Gvoudzon is on the second story of the housing unit behind him, looking out a window, bracing himself for the shot as he zeros in on the engineer using the weapon's telescopic sight.

Gvoudzon fires, rolling: 2, 2
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
+0 Medium Range
+0 Sight
-3 Cloth armor

Total: 3 - miss

The GM considers this a surprise round as the engineer ran from the housing complex, never looking back.

The crack of a rifle shot explodes behind him, and, from the corner of his eye, he sees dirt kick up into the air.

Because this is a surprise round, and Gvoudzon has surprise, the engineer may do nothing. He cannot act.

We go into the first combat round now.



R-1
Range: Medium

Gvoudzon quickly works the rifle lever, kicking another round into the chamber, lining up his sight.

The engineer drops straight down, hoping the grass will give him some concealment. The GM rules that the grass will do just that, providing a -1 DM to hit him.

Gvoudzon fires, rolling: 1, 4
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
+0 Medium Range
+0 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-1 Concealment

Total: 3 - miss

Another rifle crack. Dirt flies into the air again.

The engineer, on his back, pulls his autopistol from its sling. He had already attached the extended stock.

This autopistol is fully automatic (thus, he gets two attack throws). Bracing himself on his back, knees arched, he zipps off a burst at the window where he can see Gvoudzon aiming at him. The Vargr receives a beneficial -4 DM to attacks against him due to his partial cover in the window.

Engineer's burst fire 1: 6, 3
-3 Drawing Weapon Penalty
+0 Skill
+0 DEX bonus
-4 Medium Range
+1 No Armor
+1 Shoulder Stock
-4 Cover

Total: 0 - Miss

Engineer's burst fire 2: 3, 4
-3 Drawing Weapon Penalty
+0 Skill
+0 DEX bonus
-4 Medium Range
+1 No Armor
+1 Shoulder Stock
-4 Cover

Total: 1 - Miss

Auto rounds break all over the back of the housing structure, but it is clear to the engineer that he'll never hit the Vargr at this range.



R-2
Range: Medium

Gvoudzon cracks off another round, but the engineer is up and running, zig-zagging across the field, trying to escape.

The zig-zagging counts as evasion, making the engineer harder to hit.

Gvoudzon fires, rolling: 2, 1
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
+0 Medium Range
+0 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-2 Evasion

Total: 0 - miss

The engineer was able to increase range. He started at 1 range band, and added 2 by running, making his range at 3 range bands, equal to Long Range, by the end of the round.

Since the engineer chose evade, he cannot do other actions this round.



R-3
Range: Long

Gvoudzon, tracking his target, scratches off another round. The engineer will continue to evade, running as far as he can to increase range.

He runs 2 more range bands for a total of 5, leaving him at Long Range still.

Gvoudzon fires: 1, 5
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-1 Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 4 - miss!



R-4
Range: Long

This is a repeat of last round. The engineer is still running, evading, while Gvoudzon is trying to nail him.

The engineer increases another two range bands this round, making his total 7. He's still at Long Range.

Gvoudzon fires: 5, 3
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-1 Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 6 - miss!



R-5
Range: Long

Again, the same thing. The engineer will increase two more range bands, making his total 9, which is still Long Range.

Gvoudzon fires: 4, 2
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-1 Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 4 - miss!



R-6
Range: Very Long

Here, the engineer has increased range by another two range bands, giving him a total of 11, finally putting him at Very Long Range.

It looks like he's getting away!

Gvoudzon fires: 1, 1
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-3 Very Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: -2 - miss!



R-7
Range: Very Long

The engineer increase range by another two range bands: Total is 13.

Gvoudzon thanks the gods he had a full 20 rd clip. He's only got a few more tries before the engineer will disappear from sight.

Gvoudzon fires: 3, 2
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-3 Very Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 1 - miss!



R-8
Range: Very Long

Engineers range becomes 15 range bands. Still at Very Long Range.

Gvoudzon fires: 4, 2
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-3 Very Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 2 - miss!



R-9
Range: Very Long

The engineer increases range to 17 range bands--still at Very Long Range.

Gvoudzon fires: 4, 3
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-3 Very Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 3 - miss!



R-10
Range: Very Long

What this example is showing is the importance of using evasion, cover, and concealment in a Classic Traveller game.

The engineer increases range to 19 range bands. Still at Very Long Range. This is Gvoudzon's last chance.

Gvoudzon fires: 6, 2
+1 Skill
+1 DEX bonus
-3 Very Long Range
+4 Sight
-3 Cloth armor
-4 Evade

Total: 4 - miss!

And, the engineer disappears from Gvoudzon's sight, too far to hit.



Well, that's what happens when you roll real dice on an example!
 
Uh, I always used the "First blood" rule and applied all the first damage taken to a random stat.

But after that I rolled for a lump sum and let the player spread it around as best as he could.

I know, I'm heretical, flog me as you will.

LOL. This thread isn't for people who play house rules. It's for those who never learned or have forgotten how to play Classic Traveller damage as written.

If you know you're breaking the RAW rule, then that's one thing. But, if you're playing it a certain way, thinking you're playing it RAW, but you're not, that's a whole different matter.
 
I'm probably in the camp of 'played house rules so long I've forgotten the originals'.

In your original example, where you had a character of 867 suffering a 3D attack, what would happen in the First Blood rule if the attack was 6,6,6? Would the guy be 067, since all the hits are taken from a single chtc, or would he be 061, as two of the hits are used to reduce strength to zero and then the third hit is applied to endurance? Or would something else happen?

Just curious. I was never happy with original Traveller combat, but I've never found a truly satisfactory alternative either. :(
 
Here's a post I found over on the Steve Jackson Games BBS about
Classic Traveller and GURPS...


David Pulver said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurrealityNow
In your opinion, which system is better and for what reasons:GURPS Traveller or Traveller

I'm trying to figure out whether I'm just too "mainstream" a gamer, because I think that the original Traveller rules are a travesty among RPGs.
I found Classic Traveller broke completely when gaming out firefights with other than the Book 1 weapons, due to the combo of simultaneous actions of all sides and the fact that most TL10+ firearms had such high bonuses, even against good armor at long range, that they literally could not miss.

As such, any firefight in Classic Traveller in which both sides were shooting with high-TL rifles (to say nothing of PGMPs/FGMPS), even at long range vs. evading targets, would generally result in the simultaneous death or incapacitation of everyone on both sides in the first combat round, followed by the few survivors awakening about 10 minutes later and killing each other.

Since our group liked fights and high-tech weapons, this meant that Classic Traveller was considered unplayable unless we restricted ourselves to what players referred to derisively as the "Gordon Dickson, H. Beam Piper and Jerry Pournelle" mix of Book 1 weapons (auto rifles, flak jackets, etc.) or avoided high tech combat entirely (except for ambushes where the other side never got a chance to shoot at all... very worth doing, as you couldn't miss!).

But we found Classic Traveller played well when patched extensively with house rules adapting and codifying the Azhanti or Striker rules for fast close combat. Technically that's also "CT" and as such was pretty darn good.

And we really liked the simple, playable world generation and trade rules of book 2-3. For the level of detail we wanted, they were perfectly adequate and indeed superior to the technically more accomplished and realistic GURPS systems.

If forced to play out of the box using the RAW, I would play GURPS Traveller. The setting is more detailed, and the skill and combat systems have the advantage of being more "mature" (building on other systems, including, of course, classic Traveller). I have run a number of adventures, both combat and non-combat, in my old Traveller game with the GURPS 3e rules, and while they had the basic problems that GURPS 3e had that I believe 4e solved, they did not produce the silly results that trying to run ultra-tech combats in Classic Traveller did - results so over the top that our group still laugh about them 20 years later...

However, a fully patched and house-ruled game of Classic Traveller (which to some extent is what Mongoose Traveller is) has certain advantages over a GURPS Traveller 3e game. GURPS 3e high-tech and ultra-tech rules were themselves kludged and patched due to issues in the firearm rules in the first edition and various patch jobs that followed through 3rd edition.

On the other hand, I believe that 4th edition Traveller e.g, with Interstellar Wars plays significantly better. It produces play that has a more refined mix of realism and playability significantly (in my mind) superior to patched classic traveller. (At that point, the choice of it or Mongoose Traveller is one of personal preference: which system tropes, etc. you like better). I also think you can run far richer science fiction adventures with it plus the other GURPS 4e resource books: Space, Ultra-Tech, Bio-Tech, et al. though having written some I am prejudiced.

(Mongoose Traveller has a lovely lifepath-expanded upgrade of the CT character creation system and is generally decent in most of its game mechanics. It is quite playable. Its main flaw, for me, is that reading it - especially its "generic" Mercenary supplement - I don't get the sense that the authors really appreciate Traveller or real world technology, how military things work, etc. the way the authors of Classic Traveller (thanks to their rich wargame and SF background) did.) This may be corrected in later supplements, but it didn't really inspire confidence.)
 
I'm probably in the camp of 'played house rules so long I've forgotten the originals'.

That's what this thread is about! :o



In your original example, where you had a character of 867 suffering a 3D attack, what would happen in the First Blood rule if the attack was 6,6,6? Would the guy be 067, since all the hits are taken from a single chtc, or would he be 061, as two of the hits are used to reduce strength to zero and then the third hit is applied to endurance? Or would something else happen?

This is covered on pg. 35 of the Traveller Book. If, when using the First Blood Rule, there are any remaining points, those points are also assigned to the reamining stats on a random basis.

Taking your example, the victim as physicals of 867. He's hit with a 3D attack roll of 6, 6, 6. The First Blood Rule is appropriate because the victim starts the round with max stats.

That's 18 points of damage. We roll randomly to apply the damage to a stat, rolling STR. So, now, the victim's stats are 067. But, we've still got 10 points left. We roll randomly between DEX and END, getting a DEX result. Now, the victim's stats are 007. And...we've STILL got 4 points of damage, which, of course, is applied to the only remaining stat.

The victim ends the round, severely wounded, with stats 003.





A house rule that I've used in the past (to eliminate one of the random die throws) is to roll randomly for the first stat when applying the First Blood Rule, but then, if any damage is left over, just apply that to the stat to the "right".

So, if a victim has stats 867, and he's hit with a 3D damage roll of 6, 6, 6. I'd roll randomly for the first stat: let's say it's END. Stats are 860 with 11 points left over. I'd just "move to the right", which, around the cusp, takes us to STR. Stat are now 060 with 3 points left over, applied to DEX. The victim is left with stats 030.

"Moving to the right" means, if STR is hit, DEX takes the extra points. If DEX is hit, END takes the extra points. If END is hit, STR takes the extra points.

I don't use this house rule any more, but some GM out there may take a fancy to it.



Just curious. I was never happy with original Traveller combat, but I've never found a truly satisfactory alternative either. :(

What is it about Classic Traveller combat that you don't like. I think it's a brilliant, gritty, easy-to-use system.

Tell me your trouble with it. Maybe I an help ;).
 
Here's a post I found over on the Steve Jackson Games BBS about
Classic Traveller and GURPS...

I've seen those types of comments about Classic Traveller before, and my opinion about them is that they usually come from a player who really doesn't know or play CT as written.

There are a lot of aspects about CT mechanics that people change into house rules. They do this, and then they play the game. And, then, they're unhappy with the results.

For example, many people ignore the Hard Survival Rule (sometimes using the Optional Rule that was added to CT in later printings). This results in characters gaining more skills, on average, than the rules intend.

CT is a "skills light" game. Some characters come out of chargen with just one or two skills. These are totally playable characters--they just don't get a lot of modifiers on their throws. They're typically just throwing 2D for 8+, or some such, to succeed at tasks, without modifiers.

Yet, many players would look at a CT character with just two skills as a "failure". So, house rules are used, ignoring the Hard Survival Rule, giving characters more skills than the rules intend.

This and other rule changes "break" the original system sometimes. A +1 DM on a 2D6 throw is a hell of a modifier. Characters with inflated skills will start to succeed all the time because they've got too many modifiers.

I see this happen in combat. Real CT characters, generated with rules-as-written, will many times not even have a weapon skill. Look at the 1001 Characters supplement. Your CT characters should look like that--not skill-inflated, decked out super heroes.

Also, CT combat is deadly and gritty. Too often, CT players don't take advantage of cover, concealment, and evasion. Those DM's really help! Just look at the example I posted of Gvoudzon, the Vargr, firing his rifle at the fleeing engineer, running across the field: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=325005&postcount=5

I gave Gvoudzon a scope, and he's skilled at Rifle-1. AND, I gave him a surprise round. He had 11 tries to hit the engineer, and he never hit him once. The dice throws were average too!

That's because things like cover, concealment, and evasion are important to CT combat just like they are in real life. In RL, you don't run out in the open. You'll get shot! You run from cover to cover, trying to keep yoruself protected.

Classic Traveller combat models that pretty well.

When I see comments like what you quoted, I'd wager money the author doesn't play Classic Traveller the way it's supposed to be played. I bet he changes things, and omits things, and then ends up griping about the system.
 
David's a RPG designer and has been with Traveller since ~1980 or
so.

I'd say he knows what he's talking about.

I was just statting up the Gauss Rifle (thinking about doing some
GM tools for CT using XML) and I see what he means.

Using full-auto means 3 chances to hit the target (3 dice rolls) not
to mention attacking adjacent targets. If those targets aren't in
good armor, forget it, they're dead.

Using full-auto, medium range against Cloth target and it's +7 to hit,
never mind any skill bonus (assume Combat Rifleman-2), so that's
+9; then 3 attack rolls. Damage is 4D and non-evading adjacent
targets also get attacked (3 times as well ???).

If you get surprise... bye-bye.

Code:
$weapon_xml = '<weapon name="Gauss Rifle" tl="12" damage="4D" price="1500" length="750" xrange="1260" uweight="3500" lweight="3900">
    <fire-selection>
        <single>1</single>
        <auto>4</auto>
        <auto>10</auto>
    </fire-selection>
    <ammo-type damage="4D">standard</ammo-type>
    <range>
        <close fire-selection="single" ammo-type="standard">-4</close>
        <close fire-selection="auto" ammo-type="standard">-4</close>
        <short fire-selection="single" ammo-type="standard">1</short>
        <short fire-selection="auto" ammo-type="standard">1</short>
        <medium fire-selection="single" ammo-type="standard">2</medium>
        <medium fire-selection="auto" ammo-type="standard">4</medium>
        <long fire-selection="single" ammo-type="standard">3</long>
        <long fire-selection="auto" ammo-type="standard">5</long>
        <very-long fire-selection="single" ammo-type="standard">0</very-long>
        <very-long fire-selection="auto" ammo-type="standard">1</very-long>
    </range>
    <armor>
        <nothing fire-selection="single">4</nothing>
        <nothing fire-selection="auto">7</nothing>
        <jack fire-selection="single">4</jack>
        <jack fire-selection="auto">7</jack>
        <mesh fire-selection="single">2</mesh>
        <mesh fire-selection="auto">5</mesh>
        <cloth fire-selection="single">1</cloth>
        <cloth fire-selection="auto">3</cloth>
        <reflec fire-selection="single">4</reflec>
        <reflec fire-selection="auto">7</reflec>
        <ablat fire-selection="single">4</ablat>
        <ablat fire-selection="auto">7</ablat>
        <battle fire-selection="single">-2</battle>
        <battle fire-selection="auto">0</battle>        
    </armor>
</weapon>';
>
 
David's a RPG designer and has been with Traveller since ~1980 or
so.

I'd say he knows what he's talking about.

Not to come off using fighting words, but being an RPG designer means nothing. Hell, I've been asked to write task system for three different rpgs (that never made it to the market), stuff I didn't do because there's no money in it (and, it's very time consuming). What I write, I do for fun, and share with those interested.

I remember writing some Traveller stories and posting them on the TML back in the 90's. Then, I received an e-mail from a TML member, MJD. He said he enjoyed my stuff and wanted to get into writing Traveller materials. The next thing I know, he's hooked up with Hunter, writing T20. Many of the supplements we buy for Traveller, in several of its editions, are written by guys just like me and you.

"Professional" game designer means very little these days. There's no degree for it. Most people who get into it have only their own gaming background as experience. I could do it. You could do it. My UGM task system is just as good as (I think better than) that being used in MGT today.

I think this was not always so. I've got real respect for game designers of old: Guys like Miller and Gygax. They really knew what they were doing. They weren't like the crop of "game designers" that exist today. They put much thought into the rules they wrote, thinking of all angles, while today's "game designers", I fear, just throw down stuff that is "good enough" but not as good as it could be.

Let me ask you a question. How many mechanics have you seen in various rpg's that were broken and not well-thought-out? I bet the answer is "several". Those all came from "professional" game designers.

Heck, look at what Mongoose was going to do originally with their version of Traveller and the timing die. It took TBeard's bitching and math to show them how wrong they were.

Just because someone is published doesn't mean what he wrote was "good".





I was just statting up the Gauss Rifle (thinking about doing some
GM tools for CT using XML) and I see what he means.

Using full-auto means 3 chances to hit the target (3 dice rolls) not
to mention attacking adjacent targets. If those targets aren't in
good armor, forget it, they're dead.

See...you're taking this out of context a bit.

First off, the gauss rifle is the epitome of the slug thrower. It's the highest tech design in Traveller. So, you're comparing a weapon that is the creme of the crop--the best of the best.

Next, you're firing full auto, 10 round bursts, on a 40 round magazine. At that rate of fire, you've emptied your clip after just four pulls of the trigger. How much ammo are you going to carry at .4 kilos each (those mags come with a battery to power the magnetic barrel) plus your other equipment? The weapon, itself, weighs 3.5 kilos, so the gauss rifle and two mags takes up over half the carrying capacity of an average STR-7 soldier.

We haven't added any other equipment yet, and with only 2.7 kilos left, we're well on our way to encumbering the character. Canteen. Radio/Comm Unit. Grenades. Knife. Bandage/Personal Med-Kit. Flashlight. All this stuff adds up fast, and you sure as heck don't want to be encumbered while fighting. Save that for when you're carrying full pack.

And, we haven't even spoken about cost, at 30 Cr a magazine, the most expensive non-support slug thrower ammo there is.

Plus, if real life is any indication of what goes on in the Traveller militaries, US Marines are taught to fire single, semi-automatic shots, to conserve ammo. Not to mention the circumstances of the battle. How close is resupply? How many enemies are you fighting? What are the in-game orders from superiors?

On top of all this, you mention armor. A gauss rifle, being the weapon it is, should rule the day unless the oppenents are protected by equally high-tech armor.

In D&D terms, you're not looking at a +1 Longsword, but a +5 Vorpal Holy Avenger.

This is the shiiiittt! The guass weapon SHOULD be a formidable weapon.





Using full-auto, medium range against Cloth target and it's +7 to hit,
never mind any skill bonus (assume Combat Rifleman-2), so that's
+9; then 3 attack rolls. Damage is 4D and non-evading adjacent
targets also get attacked (3 times as well ???).

If you get surprise... bye-bye.

Now that I've brought the example back down to earth, let's take a better look at an example that is more fair (and not look at the +5 Vorpal Holy Avenger vs. 1/2 HD Goblins).

Soldier with average DEX-7, assuming your Combat Rifleman-2, and a target in appropriate combat armor, under cover, at Medium Range.

+2 Skill
+0 Dex Bonus
+2 Medium Range
-2 Armor
-4 Cover

This shakes out to a -2 DM penalty for the attacker.

You see, this is hardly the broken system posited by that David person you posted. Any system will look broken if you only take the best weapon possible and put it up against the worst defender possible.

David's points, as I indicate above, is akin to the +5 Vorpal Holy Avenger being used against 1/2 HD goblins who average 4 hit points each. Looking at it that way, the d20 D&D system looks broken, too.

Come back to earth on the examples, and you'll see that the Classic Traveller combat system isn't broken and works quite well.
 
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S4, I was going to reply last night, but I think a lot of your suggestions were writtin up in TAS or Challenge. Not that yours aren't good ideas, but some of them I think have some published rules somewhere.
 
It' quite easy to get DM's of +6 or more (assured hit) with Bk4 weapons. Heck, an SMG (In Bk1) at Short or Medium is +8 vs none or jack (IE, Normal civilian clothing).

Further, there isn't an "automatic miss on Nat 2" rule that I can find in TTB.

It's always been a problem. Your refusal to see it as one merely means it doesn't bother YOU.
 
S4, I was going to reply last night, but I think a lot of your suggestions were writtin up in TAS or Challenge. Not that yours aren't good ideas, but some of them I think have some published rules somewhere.

Hm. Interesting. Like what?



It' quite easy to get DM's of +6 or more (assured hit) with Bk4 weapons. Heck, an SMG (In Bk1) at Short or Medium is +8 vs none or jack (IE, Normal civilian clothing).

Yes, but a hit in CT doesn't mean the target was shot. Two stats have to go to zero for a character to be considered having a serious wound.

So...

Even if an SMG automatically hits because of modifiers, if the damage doesn't reduce the target to two stats at zero, the target wasn't "shot".

Damage has to be considered as well, just like you do when a longsword, in D&D, does 6 hit points of damage to a character with 30 hit points. That character isn't sliced open, but the opponent with only 4 hit points is sliced open.

My point: Even if a weapon automatically hits in Classic Traveller, that doesn't indicate the weapon automatically puts bullets inside the enemy.

People forget that.





Further, there isn't an "automatic miss on Nat 2" rule that I can find in TTB.

Who said it did? Where'd you get that?



It's always been a problem. Your refusal to see it as one merely means it doesn't bother YOU.

It's not a problem at all. People who think it is don't understand the system. They only think they do.

By your comment, you're obviously one of these people.

If so, I challenge you. Show me a specific example where you think Classic Traveller combat is broken.
 
Last edited:
That's 18 points of damage. We roll randomly to apply the damage to a stat, rolling STR. So, now, the victim's stats are 067. But, we've still got 10 points left. We roll randomly between DEX and END, getting a DEX result. Now, the victim's stats are 007. And...we've STILL got 4 points of damage, which, of course, is applied to the only remaining stat.

The victim ends the round, severely wounded, with stats 003.

So the 1 die = 1 hit is no longer used?


Quote:
Just curious. I was never happy with original Traveller combat, but I've never found a truly satisfactory alternative either.
What is it about Classic Traveller combat that you don't like. I think it's a brilliant, gritty, easy-to-use system.

Tell me your trouble with it. Maybe I an help .

Some of the stuff described by others (including you) above, plus the tactical limitations of rangebands rather than hexes, plus it gets difficult to sequence multiple activities/characters, plus the way you had to make up what was going on in your combat examples. I don't want every blow described and placed by the rules, that's tiring, but I don't want to make up the whole scene myself either, that's equally tiring.

Like the SJG quote, I've been trying to mesh something together using a combination of core CT, AHL, Striker and gems from other games. I think I'm getting close, but I'm not there yet.

To some extent, I've forgotten what the original problems with CT combat were, cos it's so long since I've used it raw.
 
I was just looking through TTB... and on page 47, it proves that ALL damage has "lasting effects"...

The Traveller Book said:
Minor Wounds
Any wound points applied to a character which do not reduce more than one characteristic to zero are considered minor wounds. The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics until medical care or recovery has taken place.
Unconsciousness
One characteristic reduced to zero results in unconsciousness for ten minutes. Upon recovery of consciousness, any wounded characteristics are placed midway between their wounded and full levels; round fractions down.
Minor Wounds
The Traveller Book said:
Medical Care
Minor Wounds: Minor wounds require a medical kid, skill of medical-1, and thirty minutes. Without medical care, recovery requires 3 days rest.
Serious Wounds: Serious wounds require a medical facility (local hospital or aid station, the sick bay of a ship, etc.), skill of medical-3, and from 5 to 30 days. Without medical care, recovery is not possible.
Recovery: Recovery returns all characteristics to their original level.
Drugs: Medical drug may be used to assist recovery. Medical slow drug may be used to shorten recovery time to about one day.

Sorry, S4, your interpretation of it taking two characteristics at zero to equal an actual hit is not supported by the text of the rules. Instead, it really looks more like the presumption is merely people are darned tough, and can expect to be KO'd by revolvers, but will recover without medical attention if given 3 days.

Given the times I've been shot (.25ACP), yeah, the bruise went away in 3 days... ;)

Essentially, until you go unconsious, the minor stuff isn't so minor, and lasts several days or until you have the medic treat you, and makes one more succeptible to further damage. Like about 2/3 of the time Mal takes a hit in Firefly... He's fine after a bandaging session.

It's cinematic, but clearly NOT the "shaken morale" effect S4 portrays it to be.
 
Well, S4 let me say, I'm not really saying "You're wrong!" and wasn't meant to gang up on you.

There are shortcomings in the CT combat system and most of them have
already been identified.

I used the Gauss Rifle to illustrate the point by the poster I quoted: Using
TL10+ weapons can bring about quick death (to summarize his observations).

Most people who play CT will want TL10+ weapons, it's sorta the whole
basis for the RPG. Not too many people play CT and use stone-age tools.

His (the Quote) observation was about using those weapons, which I
assumed most of the people in HIS game would want to have and the
inevitability of players "working the system" which happens in every
RPG.

That said, sure there are situations where that won't work and so on
but by and large, once players figure out the system, they'll exploit it
(which BTW is what the military does: figure the best way to kill the
opposition and use it, use it, use it). If your players are playing military
characters, that follows naturally.

Anyway I find this an interesting subject and will utilize it and the other
posts here for a possible future CT game (all the while patching it with
house rules as appropo).

Keep on postin' :D

>
 
It's cinematic, but clearly NOT the "shaken morale" effect S4 portrays it to be.

Getting shot, probably would give the victim a whole new perspective
on life.

I liked the Traveller Morale rules and experience points for being/surviving
a firefight (boy, that's been a while since I saw that one in Book 4).

Code:
Gaining experience: At the conclus,ion of each mercenary mission, all personnel
who came under fire gain one experience point, which will increase the morale of
units in subsequent actions provided a large number of personnel stay with the unit.
:eek: I can't believe I remembered that !

>
 
So the 1 die = 1 hit is no longer used?

I'm not sure where you're getting that. 1 die equally a wound (if that's what you mean by "hit") has never been the case with CT. A single bullet from a weapon can do 3D damage. A single bullet won't wound three times.

Or, maybe you're talking about the other method of assigning damage dice. Check out the OP.

There are two methods for assigning damage in CT.

Method 1: Add up damage from all dice and take that amount from a randomly rolled physical stat (as I showed in the example above).

Method 2: Allow the defender to lower physical stats by an amount shown on the damage dice, taking one die at a time.

You use Method 1 when the target is at full health. Otherwise, you use Method 2.



Some of the stuff described by others (including you) above, plus the tactical limitations of rangebands rather than hexes, plus it gets difficult to sequence multiple activities/characters, plus the way you had to make up what was going on in your combat examples. I don't want every blow described and placed by the rules, that's tiring, but I don't want to make up the whole scene myself either, that's equally tiring.

You've covered a lot of ground here. I'll take it one by one.

1 - Range Bands don't have to be used. CT plays either way. If you want a grid or hex board for tactical movement, rules for movement are provided. You can even go further and use an action point system (Snapshot is the CT combat system married to action points and tactical movement).

Range Bands represent a simple system that allows the GM to handle distances without having to map out stuff on a map. A couple of dots on a piece of notbook paper, and the GM can describe a combat easily.

It's up to you what's appropriate for you game.

In my game, I switch off. If I think a grid is needed, I use it. If Range Bands will suffice, I use that.

CT doesn't lock you into any method. Instead, it provides options.



2 - There is no multiple action rule in CT. Each round, each character gets to act and move. The rounds are 15 seconds long, so a lot of leeway is given. CT doesn't allow for a character to move, fire off all six shots in his revolver, and then move again. Run as written, CT allows a character to move and make one attack each round.

This is not to say you can't house rule this aspect of CT. Many people do. Some use Snapshot, and some use Azhanti High Lightning (a more abstract tactical combat system for CT). Some use hybrids.

If you want to have multiple actions, I suggest shortening the round to 2, 3, 5, or 6 seconds. If you do this, don't forget to adjust movement, too.



3 - I made up what happened in the action round because I was making it up as I was writing. In a real game, the player would tell me what his character was doing--I wouldn't make it up for him. And, as GM, I would control the NPCs.

I'm not sure I follow your complaint on this aspect of the game. It's like every other rpg I've played. I certainly don't find anything tiring about it.

Maybe you could elaborate on your point?






To some extent, I've forgotten what the original problems with CT combat were, cos it's so long since I've used it raw.

That's what this thread is about!
 
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