Understanding Classic Traveller Combat Damage

[Supplement Four]

I was just looking through TTB... and on page 47, it proves that ALL damage has "lasting effects"...

I never said it didn't. And, I've represented damage in CT appropriately. You seem to be saying I haven't.

Remember, with a minor wound, the stat may be reduced, but any throws or game effects tied to the stat are taken as if the stat is at its full number.

For example, if a character has stats 777, then takes damage, reducing him to 177, he can still carry 7 kg of equipment without being encumbered.

Likewise, if a character with stats 777 takes damage, reducing him to 717, his DEX modifier for gun combat does not change.

If a character's END is reduced due to wounds, as in a 777 character reduced to 771, this does not effect the number of rounds before the Weakened Blow penalty kicks in.

You see: Minor wounds are just that. Minor.

Sorry, S4, your interpretation of it taking two characteristics at zero to equal an actual hit is not supported by the text of the rules.

Oh yeah?

Let's test what you say.

A character with physical stats 777 is hit by an attack, with stats reduced to 177. By the book, this is a Minor Wound.

Also by the book, this character's carrying capcity (load) is not effected. For all practical purposes, the character's stat is still considered to be 7.

Without medical care, this character will be completely healed, 100% healed in three days.

With medical care, the character is completely healed in 30 minutes!

Ever heard of a gunshot victim that recieved absolutely no medical treatment being completely healed, good as new, in three days?

Ever heard of a gunshot victim being completely healed in half an hour at the emergency room?

No, of course not.





Or, let's say your 777 character is hit with an attack that reduces stats to 057, The only difference between the damage done to this character and the damage described above is that this character is knocked unconscious for 10 minutes.

Again, this character is completely healed in three days if he recieves zero medical attention. He heals completely in 30 minutes if medical if medical attention is received.

Does that sound like a gunshot wound to you?

Nope.




As I said before: Gunshot wounds in Classic Traveller are Serious Wounds. By definition, Serious Wounds in CT occur when two stats are reduced to zero.





By the way, I challenged you for a specific example of where you think Classic Traveller combat is broken. Instead, you replied with this stuff.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, S4 let me say, I'm not really saying "You're wrong!" and wasn't meant to gang up on you.

Bro, we're just talking here, discussing Traveller. No worries. Nothing is heated on my end (I hope I'm not coming across that way).

I'm just trying to clear up some mis-conceptions about Classic Traveller. Show people the "real skinny" so to speak.

There are shortcomings in the CT combat system and most of them have
already been identified.

Not in this thread...not yet. Please indicate what shortcomings you think CT combat has.

I used the Gauss Rifle to illustrate the point by the poster I quoted: Using
TL10+ weapons can bring about quick death (to summarize his observations).

Sure TL 10+ weapons are deadly.

But...shouldn't they be?

Most people who play CT will want TL10+ weapons, it's sorta the whole
basis for the RPG. Not too many people play CT and use stone-age tools.

That hasn't been my experience. I've governed games with military level equipment and I've governed games with regular equipment.

One watches Alien, and there is no weapons there--just improvised ones--though it's a very "Traveller" movie.

One watches Outland, and there's shotguns.

One watches Aliens, and the military gear shows up.

All very "Traveller" movies. I could have fun with any of the three. A gauss rifle is great, but so is a shotgun--or even a broken chair leg in a bar brawl.

His (the Quote) observation was about using those weapons, which I
assumed most of the people in HIS game would want to have and the
inevitability of players "working the system" which happens in every
RPG.

I read his quote. That said, I think he was unfair. It sounded to me as if he munchkinized his game a bit. It's as if his players liked Full Plate amor and +5 Vorpal Holy Avengers with level 20 D&D characters....then complained about it because they fought hobgoblins.

Their Classic Traveller game wasn't broken because CT is broken (it's not). Their game was broken because of how they played it. They needed to fight several red dragons, not 1 HD hobgoblins.

As a game designer, he should have known that.

That said, sure there are situations where that won't work and so on
but by and large, once players figure out the system, they'll exploit it...

This comes under the jurisdiction of the GM, doesn't it?

It's up to the GM to keep his game fun, and part of being fun is keeping the game challenging. If military grade weapons is ruining your game, then make the stuff hard to get..or expensive...or both.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with running a game featuring a squad of Imperial Marines during the Fifth Frontier War either. It's up to the GM to throw some decked out Zhodani soldiers at them--not Pysadian world worshippers brandishing staves.

In that scenario, of course the Marines are going to murder 'em.

And...they should.

Keep on postin'

Will do!

 

[Supplement Four]

This was Aramis' challenge, but he elected to not take me up on it. So, I'll extend the challenge to anyone else who thinks Classic Traveller combat is broken.

If you think CT combat is broken, then hit me with specific example that can happen in a game.

Illuminate the "broken" part, and let's discuss it.

Any and all takers on this challenge are welcome to apply!

 

[sabredog]

I just checked Snapshot, AHL, and Striker. All three are canon for CT - says so right on the cover of my FFE Classic Traveller on CD-ROM. The back side says "the canon for Classic Traveller", etc..

In all 3 those systems 1 attribute knocked to zero is a called either a minor wound or just a "wound sufficient to knock the character unconcious" and then he recovers as per what S4 says.

If 2 attributes are knocked down to zero it is called in all three systems a "SERIOUS WOUND" with the attendant effects S4 describes.

Now all this is leaving off what it says in CT LBB1 on page 34 that if 2 attributes are reduced to 0 "the character is considered to be SERIOUSLY WOUNDED". And what it says in The Traveller Book on page 35, where the language is exactly the same.

 

[sabredog]

This was Aramis' challenge, but he elected to not take me up on it. So, I'll extend the challenge to anyone else who thinks Classic Traveller combat is broken.

If you think CT combat is broken, then hit me with specific example that can happen in a game.

Illuminate the "broken" part, and let's discuss it.

Any and all takers on this challenge are welcome to apply!

Uh, no not really "broken", just depends on what you mean by broken. I like the classic system for a certain elegance and simplicity. One roll to hit, one roll for damage. Compute factors per weapon for range and armor seperately and combine them for the basic DM.

The only problem I've ever had with that is that I have always had a hard time getting my head around the idea that that 1 roll to hit takes all those factors into account and creates weird things, like some weapons having what I would argue a better chance to penetrate armor they ought not to be able to...and that there is no reduction of damage based on armor penetrated.

like if I got shot in my vest (level IIIA w/ a trauma plate) by something capable of penetrating it I would still have a better chance of surviving the hit than if I was wearing lower protection. (Leaving off where I got hit, etc..) So in CT terms the damage should be reduced depending on protection. On the flip side of that is the fact that I could shoot someone in Dragonskin all day with my .40 MP5 and hit them every time but not do anything at all other than muss the coverfabric. But with CT it's all or nothing: a succesful roll to hit a guy in battle dress and the full damage goes through.

Now this is why I used Striker as soon as it showed up because it made more sense to me. Roll to hit is based on factors that have nothing to do with the weapon's ability to actually damage the target. Penetration is attentuated by range and the armor so the wearer gets protection from distance and the armor - even if points get through they are reduced in a logical way.

But I must confess having now gone back to the original system for one major reason. Its easier to fudge so I don't kill players all the time, combat happens more often as a result, melee combat is back where before nobody bothered with it, and the game is now overall more fun again.

I still have my issues with the CT system but I'm getting over it. I dragged some old weapons out of my teetering pile o' Traveller stuff and realized the original system does ok...I had some good stuff back in the day.

Anyway, just wanted to get my 2 Cr in.

 

[Supplement Four]

The only problem I've ever had with that is that I have always had a hard time getting my head around the idea that that 1 roll to hit takes all those factors into account and creates weird things, like some weapons having what I would argue a better chance to penetrate armor they ought not to be able to...

You're going to have that with any game. People have different opinions, different tastes. Some people like roll high. Some like roll low. Some like d6, some like percentile, some like d20 and classes and levels.

In D&D, I always had a problem with an arrow doing 1d6 damage. If a target has 40 hit points, that's a lot of arrows needed to take him out! And, that seems unrealistic to me.

Plus, games are a balance of realism, believeability, and mechanical requirements.

My suggestion for CT, if one finds a weapon that, in one's opinion, has too much or too little penetration...change it. Alter a DM or two. Make it seem "right" to you.

...and that there is no reduction of damage based on armor penetrated.

I used to have a real hard time with this, too, until I realized it was there. It's just random. And, it's a bit abstract but can be reasoned.

Damage reduction based on armor: This is handled in CT in two ways. First off, the armors providing the best protection will not allow damage as often.

If you pick up an automatic pistol and fire 100 rounds at a target armored by Mesh armor, then fired another 100 rounds at a target armored by Cloth armor, hitting every time, you'll do 30% more damage to the target in Mesh (all other factors the same) because of the modifiers.

That's damage reduction due to armor.

Secondly, though, there's a random element involved too. If you hit, doing 3D damage, and roll 1, 1, 1 vs rolling 6, 6, 6, this can be considered damage reduction as well.




Let's look a little closer at the first part of the damage reduction I mention above.

Two targets. 100 rounds each, from a rifle. One target in Ablat. One target in Jack. Both targets stationary at Short Range.

A character with DEX-7, Rifle-0 doing the shooting.

On average, the shooter will do 580 points of damage against the target in Ablat and 830 points of damage on the target in Jack.

What you see here is damage reduction due to armor.

Classic Traveller has it...it's just figured into the attack throw.

But with CT it's all or nothing: a succesful roll to hit a guy in battle dress and the full damage goes through.

Not necessarily.

A target, wearing Cloth armor, has stats 777 and is hit for 3D damage. His stats are reduced to 177.

He suffered a Minor Wound. It's not a gunshot wound.

In a game, I'd call this a shot that hit the target's cloth armor and did not penetrate. The 6 points of damage the target took was bruise damage due to the shot.

Now, damage in CT is somewhat abstract, so you can make up what you want. But, what I've laid out here is pretty believeable given the wound effect.

But I must confess having now gone back to the original system for one major reason. Its easier to fudge so I don't kill players all the time, combat happens more often as a result, melee combat is back where before nobody bothered with it, and the game is now overall more fun again.

I'll agree CT combat is damn fun.

I still have my issues with the CT system but I'm getting over it.

Like what? Drag it out. I love discussing this stuff. Love the game. Love the system. Love CT.

Let's pow-wow.

 

[sabredog]

Like what? Drag it out. I love discussing this stuff. Love the game. Love the system. Love CT.

Let's pow-wow.

Just my eternal search for the "perfect" system I guess. To some players I'm an infernal and annoying tinkerer with the rules ("What? Now we have to change this again?").

I still like and live with it. I have enough house rules to take into account things like the higher tech armors for example. Combat Armor as in the damage tables is just TL-11 basic stuff, for every TL it's produced above that add one to the roll required to hit it, plus I differentiate it from BD by adding further mods. Like this:


So Combat at TL-11 is Combat +0,,,TL-12 is Combat +1...and so on until TL-15 where it is CMBT+5
Battledress is CMBT+4 at TL13 when it comes out, +5 at TL-14, and +6 at TL-15

This settled for me the problem I had with why these armors didn't seem to be as effective as I think they ought to be against other than the weapons which were coming out at the same TL's and should in theory be response to said armor.

Shotguns are not likely to be as effective (or ar SMGs, autorifles or gauss rifles) against the higher TL armors now, but then there are RAM grenades, energy wpns, and lasers that still do dandy. And skill always plays an important part, as does tactics and a little luck. Which is how I feel it should be.

 

[far-trader]

I was just looking through TTB... and on page 47, it proves that ALL damage has "lasting effects"...

(and aramis goes on to show that all hits in CT are damage, explaining the "lasting effects" bit...)

I never said it didn't...

How else is one to interpret this bit?

Yes, but a hit in CT doesn't mean the target was shot. Two stats have to go to zero for a character to be considered having a serious wound.

So...

Even if an SMG automatically hits because of modifiers, if the damage doesn't reduce the target to two stats at zero, the target wasn't "shot".

Damage has to be considered as well, just like you do when a longsword, in D&D, does 6 hit points of damage to a character with 30 hit points. That character isn't sliced open, but the opponent with only 4 hit points is sliced open.

My point: Even if a weapon automatically hits in Classic Traveller, that doesn't indicate the weapon automatically puts bullets inside the enemy.

People forget that.

So like aramis said S4, every hit in CT is in fact a bullet in the target, or a blade cutting, or an unarmed blow striking. Not fatigue (a separate rule entirely), not luck running out, nor any of the other vague notions applied to D&D to explain the soaring hit-points of high level characters. Note that CT does not have hit-points. In D&D parlance vis-a-vis damage everyone is 1st level classless relying on native damage soak ability only. CT doesn't play that way*.

* EDIT: clarifying, there are no heroic dodges, fantastic luck, benevolent deities, and so interceding, reflected in hit-point gain in CT, that's D&D

People forget that.

 

[aramis]

S4: Where does it say in CT that you Don't use wounded levels? I can't find such a reference. You're making the extraordinary claim that damage doesn't reduce stats for non-damage purposes (especially since in MT, one does use the wounded levels for DM's on tasks, albeit not until after combat; the adrenaline effect is built into the MT damage rules by the hits abstraction delaying reolution.).

Further, the lack of wound penalties would tend to indicate that (as is true in MT and T4) the reduction in stat is itself the penalty.

(note further: In MT, the damage to stats without unconsciousness is halved post combat as well).

 

[far-trader]

S4: Where does it say in CT that you Don't use wounded levels? I can't find such a reference. You're making the extraordinary claim that damage doesn't reduce stats for non-damage purposes (especially since in MT, one does use the wounded levels for DM's on tasks).

Further, the lack of wound penalties would tend to indicate that (as is true in MT and T4) the reduction in stat is itself the penalty.

(note further: In MT, the damage to stats without unconsciousness is halved post combat as well).

QFT

...and further, we have precedence in the stat reduction applying mechanic in the encumbrance rules.

 

[sabredog]

Damage to endurance reduces the swings allowed before weakened blows.

Damage to strength and dexterity may cause the character to suffer from negative modifiers if they drop to less than required levels to use the weapon.

At least that's how I've always understood it to work. You could shoot the guy, not knock him out, but if it is the first hit and comes off his Dex then he might now have a really hard time shooting back effectively. Similarly with melee weapons.

 

[Supplement Four]

(and aramis goes on to show that all hits in CT are damage, explaining the "lasting effects" bit...)

The "lasting effects" that Aramis discusses is only points. It doesn't effect the character (as I'm about to give Aramis his reference he needs).

The "lasting effects" just means the character has less hit points to withstand damage later. That's it.

How else is one to interpret this bit?

I never said anything about natural twos not hitting. Not sure where that came from.

You interpret the SMG attack throw thusly:

Two attacks with SMG (full auto). Both are successful in rolling 8+. When the smoke clears, the damaged victim has stats 115.

Guess what. The dude is still standing. He's suffered only a Minor Wound that will heal completely in 30 min with medical help and 3 days without it.

By the damage results, logic dictates that the target DID NOT suffer a gunshot wound, because a gunshot wound is a serious wound that would not heal that way.

So like aramis said S4, every hit in CT is in fact a bullet in the target, or a blade cutting, or an unarmed blow striking.

That is incorrect, sir.

Unless you think the CT system models an unbelieveable number of bullet grazes.

That's crazy to think that, though.

No sir. Stats in CT serve two purposes: As attribute levels and as hit points.

Their hit point function is abstract and means little, as does hit points in D&D.

As I said before, the target that is reduced to stats 115 does not suffer from any ill effects. He still carries his load indicated by his highest STR score. STR and DEX bonuses remain uneffected. END weakened blows still engage when as indicated by the character's max END level.

Of course, Aramis doesn't believe this. It sounds like you don't either.

But, I'll show you...

Next post!

Note that CT does not have hit-points.

LOL. But, it does!

Keep reading!

 

[sabredog]

Oh, on the weakened blow neg DM thing you're right.....it says nothing gets affected by damage.

Well crud, oh I'll still do it my way - torments and helps the players at the same time.

And the hit points? Aren't those supposed to the first three stats? Now I know I haven't been getting that wrong!

 

[Supplement Four]

S4: Where does it say in CT that you Don't use wounded levels? I can't find such a reference. You're making the extraordinary claim that damage doesn't reduce stats for non-damage purposes....

Pg. 36 of the Traveller Book, my friend.

"Wounds do not effect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots."

There are a couple of other references, but I think that one will do. It's pretty clear.

Further, the lack of wound penalties would tend to indicate that (as is true in MT and T4) the reduction in stat is itself the penalty.

But, it doesn't. Stats are used as hit points in this manner. Stats, in CT, are dual function. They serve as hit points (unlike what Far Trader said above), and they serve their normal function as attributes.





RELATED ISSUE...

I should note that, if you encumber your character, the stat reduction is a hit point reduction only.

So, if youhave stats 777 and are encumbered, you are considered as having stats 666 when taking damage, but having stats 777 for other stat related calculations.

 

[far-trader]

Oh, on the weakened blow neg DM thing you're right.....it says nothing gets affected by damage.

It says (and we always interpreted it as) "wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots." No mention of skill checks or anything else. We also took that to be for the current combat. A later combat entered into with reduced characteristics is going to start from that wounded level as a previous condition.

And the hit points? Aren't those supposed to the first three stats? Now I know I haven't been getting that wrong!

Well they aren't hit-points in the D&D sense, if that clarifies. They are more a representation of injury. In D&D they'd be stat penalties (like some of the hit location charts, where you take hit points of damage and some random effect - limb, Dex-1 or whatever)

 

[Supplement Four]

QFT

...and further, we have precedence in the stat reduction applying mechanic in the encumbrance rules.

No sir. Incorrect. As I mention above. Besides the quite plain rule I mention to Aramis, pg. 37 of the Traveller Book says, "Individuals carrying suficient weight to become ecumbered have their UPP values temporarily reduced; these reduced UPP values are use when computing wounds and unconsciousness."

As I explain to Aramis above, encumbrance is basically temporary damage to the character's hit points. Nothing else.

 

[Supplement Four]

It says (and we always interpreted it as) "wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots." No mention of skill checks or anything else. We also took that to be for the current combat.

So...reduced levels of stat do not effect STR or DEX combat bonuses, the number of rounds until the character gets tired and suffers from Weakened blows, or how much load the character can carry.

With all that, why would you jump in the exact opposite direction with your assumption on skill checks? The logical assumption would be to say, if wounds don't affect all that other stuff, then they must not affect skill checks either.

Just curious.



EDIT: I meant to give you a reference, but skipped right over it! (Lord knows I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it! ). Check out pg. 36 of the Traveller Book: "For example, a still-conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9."

So...if you're doing a stat check...you'd use his max STR-9 because he's still functing as if he has STR-9 even though his wounds reduce him to STR-7.

Another example of how stats, in CT, are used as hit points.

A later combat entered into with reduced characteristics is going to start from that wounded level as a previous condition.

I've seen this before as a house rule (and, it's not a bad rule). But, it's not what is intended with Classic Traveller as written.

Well they aren't hit-points in the D&D sense, if that clarifies. They are more a representation of injury. In D&D they'd be stat penalties (like some of the hit location charts, where you take hit points of damage and some random effect - limb, Dex-1 or whatever)

But, they are hit points in the D&D sense. If you damage your DEX, you still get to use your full DEX. You don't use the lowered number.

There's no effect on the character (at least until one stat drops to zero).

They're used as hit points.

 

[far-trader]

And I read that as a bold clarification that the reduced characteristics apply not only as a temporary reduction in characteristics for all the usual characteristic effects but also for damage. I see it as obvious that a reduced Dex means due to encumbrance means you won't be able to move as quickly (and so on) but that the clarification as it applies to wounding is required since it is not so logical.

Seriously, all one has to do to avoid the penalty is drop some load. If you can't, it sucks to be you.

And further it seems obvious that the load you can carry should be recalculated after any combat that reduces Str to the new temporary lower Str. No, that's not spelled out in the rules. Do you think that means it is wrong to recalculate? Or does it make more sense to you that my Str B with a light load of 8kg who gets shot up and is reduced (until healed) to a mere Str 4 can still skip along at his merry old pace with the same 8kg load? Or is he now encumbered?

 

[aramis]

It only excludes blows swings and shots.

I do stand corrected on that part. Note however, that it also notes a paragraph above that the UPP is temporarily adjusted for seriously wounded characters. Implying that seriously wounded characters DO, after combat, take reductions to their abilities as penalty.

Also, column two of page 37, last ¶
"[...]The number of blows and swings is based upon endurance at the beginning of the combat encounter; wounds suffered during the encounter do not reduce the possible swings and blows, but wounds suffered prior to the encounter which reduce endurance will reduce the allowance accordingly.[...]"

S4, at least for endurance, you are wrong. Endurance is explicit; the current value at start of encounter is used for swings.

 

[far-trader]

You interpret the SMG attack throw thusly:

Two attacks with SMG (full auto). Both are successful in rolling 8+. When the smoke clears, the damaged victim has stats 115.

Guess what. The dude is still standing. He's suffered only a Minor Wound that will heal completely in 30 min with medical help and 3 days without it.

Guess what. Dudes have been known to still be standing after being shot. And heal without medical help in days. And I have no problem seeing full healing in Traveller with Med drug.

By the damage results, logic dictates that the target DID NOT suffer a gunshot wound, because a gunshot wound is a serious wound that would not heal that way.

It all depends. In this case the gunshot wound is not serious. A clean through and through in a meaty bit missing all vital bits.

Unless you think the CT system models an unbelieveable number of bullet grazes.

No, but in the SMG example how many bullets actually hit is probably few. Even as few as one. All depending on the damage done and where they or it hit.