Understanding Classic Traveller Combat Damage

[Supplement Four]

And I read that as a bold clarification that the reduced characteristics apply not only as a temporary reduction in characteristics for all the usual characteristic effects but also for damage.

I suggest you read carefully the CT combat section again in The Traveller Book.

Seriously, all one has to do to avoid the penalty is drop some load. If you can't, it sucks to be you.

That's right. If you are 777 and encumbered, you play the character with 777 stats except for when applying damage. When applying damage, you consider the character to be 666.

If he drops some load, unencumbered, he's considered 777 again for wounding purposes.

And further it seems obvious that the load you can carry should be recalculated after any combat that reduces Str to the new temporary lower Str.

No, because then you're allowing your hit points to effect your carrying capacity. It's the other way around. Load affects how many hit points you have. A heavy, encumbered load "damages" you temporarily.

However, how many hit points you have does not effect your load at all, just like it doesn't affect other stat influenced calculations.

Do you think that means it is wrong to recalculate?

Yes.

Or does it make more sense to you that my Str B with a light load of 8kg who gets shot up and is reduced (until healed) to a mere Str 4 can still skip along at his merry old pace with the same 8kg load?

STR-B, damaged to STR-4, is still STR-B for all purposes except hit points.

You're thinking the character is reduced to STR-4. He's not. He's still STR-B.

(Think of it like this: He's STR-B with X number of hit points. X is reduced to Y, as in D&D. But, the character is still STR-B.)

Believe me. I know this isn't how you've done it all these years, but I know what I'm talking about. Read the book, and you'll see.

I don't think you've grasped the dual nature of how physical stats are use in CT: both as hit points and as attributes.

 

[far-trader]

EDIT: I meant to give you a reference, but skipped right over it! (Lord knows I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it! ). Check out pg. 36 of the Traveller Book: "For example, a still-conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9."

So...if you're doing a stat check...you'd use his max STR-9 because he's still functing as if he has STR-9 even though his wounds reduce him to STR-7.

For that combat, in my opinion and in my interpretation. I don't pretend to know what the designers meant by the way the rules are worded and can only go by what I think they meant and what makes the most sense. This is NOT D&D with it's heroics and magic, it's CT with reason and logic. See the note on reduced Endurance in later combats on the same page (last paragraph) for what I took as guidance in applying wounded characteristics. I see no logic in presuming that once I've been shot up and my Str is reduced that I can still swing that heavy cutlass with my previously unwounded bonus, or carry that heavy backpack with the same light step. If my Dex is all cut to heck I can't see being able aim my rifle nearly as quickly as before.

 

[far-trader]

May I suggest instead you read the bit aramis notes on the previous page about how wounded Endurance IS NOT just a hit point issue.

I can see your point, but I don't think it's clear that the two (characteristics and hit points) are or were intended to be separate entities. It's a needless, and I think artificial invention, separating the two. The intention has always seemed to me that damage is to the physical being:

"Wound points are applied to the target's strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis."

Temporary being until treated by a medic or healed up naturally. Nothing about hit points there. Nothing about dual nature of characteristics. Just a clear statement that damage is applied TO the characteristics.

Hit points do not exist in CT. You have interpreted the rules in such a way that you have invented them. But again, that's just one player/ref interpretation. Just like yours.

 

[Supplement Four]

It only excludes blows swings and shots.

Hey, man. No worries. We're just talking here. I hope you're enjoying the conversation and not getting hot under the collar. I've long suspected that Classic Traveller is misunderstood in many areas hearing people talk on this forum and other areas. I just thought I'd shed some light on some of the inaccuracies.

I do stand corrected on that part. Note however...

...S4, at least for endurance, you are wrong. Endurance is explicit; the current value at start of encounter is used for swings.

Yessir, I know. I was just about to get to that, but you beat me to it. I almost listed it when I mentioned the encumbrance rule above, but I didn't want to cloud the issue.



If you run Classic Traveller combat as written, then this is how a combat round should play out mechanically....




You have a character with physicals 777. He's encumbered with gear.

For hit points, he's considered as having 666.

For STR checks, load, and blade combat modifiers, he's considered as having STR-7.

For DEX checks and gun combat modifiers, he's considered as having DEX-7.

For END checks and weakened blow calculation, he's condsidered as having END-7.



Now, the character gets into combat, victim of a successful attack. When damage is applied, we start with the 666 stats because he was encumbered. Damage is applied, and stats are reduced to 163.

At this point...

For STR checks, load, and blade combat modifiers, he's considered as having STR-7.

For DEX checks and gun combat modifiers, he's considered as having DEX-7.

For END checks and weakened blow calculation, he's condsidered as having END-7.





At the end of the combat, the character has wounded stats 163. He doesn't receive medical attention, so, for three days, the dude goes back to the ship and rests. His stats remain 163 for the entire resting period, but he's still...(below)...for this entire period.

For STR checks, load, and blade combat modifiers, he's considered as having STR-7.

For DEX checks and gun combat modifiers, he's considered as having DEX-7.

For END checks and weakened blow calculation, he's condsidered as having END-7.




His resting is interrupted, though, by an interloper on the ship. They get into a fist fight. He starts this fight with stats 163, and notice the change below for END.

For STR checks, load, and blade combat modifiers, he's considered as having STR-7.

For DEX checks and gun combat modifiers, he's considered as having DEX-7.

For END checks he's considered as having END-7, but for weakened blow calculation, he's condsidered as having END-3.





Let's say, during this fight, the interloper successfully hits our boy. Damage is applied, and now his stats are 102.

At this point in the combat, the character is knocked unconscious. 10 minutes later, he wakes. At this point, his stats are raised*. 445 is his new stats.

For STR checks, load, and blade combat modifiers, he's considered as having STR-7.

For DEX checks and gun combat modifiers, he's considered as having DEX-7.

For END checks he's considered as having END-7, but for weakened blow calculation, he's condsidered as having END-5.




Our character resumes his rest, and at the end of the resting period, his stats return fully to 777.





Now....what I've written here is exactly how CT should be played if playing the game by the book, as written.

I've got one "gripe" or house rule I use, though. See the asterix above.

It seems a little crazy to me that a character can be knocked out and then have more hit points when he awakens than if he'd rested without being knocked out. So, when a character rests in my game, I place his stats at the halfway point between wounded and max--just as if he had awakened from being knocked out. That only seems logical to me.

 

[Supplement Four]

May I suggest instead you read the bit aramis notes on the previous page about how wounded Endurance IS NOT just a hit point issue.

I was just about to bring that up myself. What I told you above was correct, especially since we began talking about Minor Wounds and the start of combat.

That Endurance rule occurs on subsequent combat rounds.

If you read my post above this one, I have describe exactly how a CT combat should run if you run the game by the book.

 

[aramis]

S4: Given the wording, I think you are wrong. THey cease to be "wounds" per se when combat ends... they then become the temporary UPP of the character, and the UPP is what is used for checks, etc.

Given that "the Adrenaline effect" is the treatment of stat damage in MT, MGT, and T4, it seems that that IS the mode intended by Marc. I think you honestly read WAY too much that isn't explicitly there, S4. Especially since later treatments of the same basic material approved by MWM show the opposite.

On the wound example, it notes the temporary UPP is ___. Not just the current values, but the current UPP.

 

[hdan]

I'm no Trav guru, but I've always played that the damaged characteristics are used as damaged - if you get knocked down to a low STR (for example), you'll take -DM's until you heal up. This is also (explicitly) how MongTrav works, so I have to side with far-trader on this one.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4: Given the wording, I think you are wrong.

That's fair to say--as I'm guessing you've been under an assumption about CT for such a long time, but I'm citing pretty specific rules written the book.

When the book says, "a still conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9", that's a pretty clear sentence.

Or, when the book says about load that, "...these reduced UPP values are used when computing wounds and unconsciousness", that's pretty doggone clear.

It's equally clear when the book reads, "Wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used for to influence blows, swings, or shots."



I wish there was a definitive example of combat somewhere in the CT canon. It might clear up some of these misconceptions that are about.




I'll tell you another misconception about CT that I run into having to do with the First Blood rule. Some people read that to be used the first time a character is damaged in a combat round. But, that's not how the rule actually reads. It refers to the first wound a character recieves. Thus, if a new combat round started, and a character with lowered stats from a previous engagement was hit and damaged, the first blood rule would not be used. That rule is used only when the victim is at full health.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm no Trav guru, but I've always played that the damaged characteristics are used as damaged - if you get knocked down to a low STR (for example), you'll take -DM's until you heal up. This is also (explicitly) how MongTrav works, so I have to side with far-trader on this one.

That's fine that you play that way, but I've presented at least three quotes above from the Traveller Book that support the things I've said. I'm not guessing here or saying "looks like". I'm supporting what I say with cold, hard rules from the book. Look at the quotes I mention to Aramis above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Snapshot is the tactical rules set for Classic Traveller combat. It's the same combat system with action points and tactical movement tacked on.

Look at pg. 9 of Snapshot, second paragraph...

"It is important to note that the marking off of wounds against characteristics has no effect on the person's abilities as dictated by the characteristics. Thus, someone with a strength 11 who sustains wounds on his strength characteristic is still treated throughout the game as having a strength 11. Wounding of characteristics is simply a bookkeeping system."


Gentelmen, that's damn plain. I don't know how it could be much plainer. It supports everything I've said in this thread. (Far Trader Dan - you see....they are hit points).

Aramis...are you finally convinced?

Do I have to find another source? Or, is this going to do it?

 

[far-trader]

Here's how I see the same thing (S4's example above) played out the way I read the rules.

Character UPP 666--- due to encumbrance (foolish character )

Gets in fight results in temporary UPP 163---

Goes to rest and recover for 3 days. Is interrupted by another fight.

Starts fight with UPP 163--- and is wounded to UPP 102---

Knocked unconscious. 10 minutes later they come to and their characteristics are placed at halfway between the (temporary) full UPP they started with (163) and the wounded (recent combat) UPP (102) resulting in a current (temporary) UPP of 132 (rounding down).

They have to seek medical attention or begin the whole 3 days of natural rest and recuperation all over again (they've reopened old wounds, lost more energy etc.).

I don't really have much problem with the minor wound unconscious recovery. It's the effects of shock having passed imo. You're still hurting but it's not nearly as bad as it seemed before you passed out from it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's how I see the same thing (S4's example above) played out the way I read the rules.

Dan,

I think you and I were posting at the same time. Check out my last post...hopefully, I will have finally convinced you...

 

[far-trader]

Snapshot is the tactical rules set for Classic Traveller combat. It's the same combat system with action points and tactical movement tacked on.

Look at pg. 9 of Snapshot, second paragraph...

"It is important to note that the marking off of wounds against characteristics has no effect on the person's abilities as dictated by the characteristics. Thus, someone with a strength 11 who sustains wounds on his strength characteristic is still treated throughout the game as having a strength 11. Wounding of characteristics is imply a bookkeeping system."


Gentelmen, that's damn plain. I don't know how it could be much plainer. It supports everything I've said in this thread. (Far Trader Dan - you see....they are hit points).

Aramis...are you finally convinced?

For myself, convinced? Not hardly. Snapshot is not CT. It's a game concerned only with a single firefight. Sure you can use the rules in CT (the RPG) but they are not the same. No rules in Snapshot that I recall are concerned with anything beyond surviving that single combat. It even says something about if the character goes unconscious they are out of the game iirc.

Neither aramis or I (I think) are saying that the UPP is recalculated in a current engagement (that's just too much bookeeping). But after a combat engagement, absolutely. Else why bother with temporary UPP values?

And the first blood rule, darn rights if you get into a firefight on day 1 and then later on day 2 you get into a sword fight there's going to be a first blood shock effect to apply. That's how it should be. Else why bother. "It's ok guys, I was in a firefight 4 years ago, no first blood damage is gonna affect me." or "Hey ref, I poke myself with a sharp stick for 1 point of first blood damage. Now let's spring the ambush and attack."

I think you need to look more at the context of some of your supporting quotes too They are not all nearly so plain as you make them out.

 

[far-trader]

Dan,

I think you and I were posting at the same time. Check out my last post...hopefully, I will have finally convinced you...

We were, but nope Not yet To be honest I'm not sure either of us will be budged and that's cool. It's always good hashing out stuff on the off chance a sudden revelation will be discovered.

 

[rancke]

It's equally clear when the book reads, "Wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used for to influence blows, swings, or shots."

Yes indeed. Very clear. So when the book also reads:

"[...]The number of blows and swings is based upon endurance at the beginning of the combat encounter; wounds suffered during the encounter do not reduce the possible swings and blows, but wounds suffered prior to the encounter which reduce endurance will reduce the allowance accordingly.[...]"

It is either contradicting itself or the first rule is supposed to apply to the end of the fight where the injury is inflicted, after which it no longer applies. Now, is there any reason why any of the other, equally clear, statements should not be interpreted to likewise apply to the end of the fight and no longer?


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

For myself, convinced? Not hardly.

That's incredible.

That quote says exactly what I've been saying all along and supports the quotes I've provided from The Traveller Book.

Aside from grabbing Marc Miller and having him tell you, personally, that it's how he intended CT to run, I don't know how else to convince you.

Snapshot is not CT. It's a game concerned only with a single firefight. Sure you can use the rules in CT (the RPG) but they are not the same.

Snapshot is CT. The rules in Snapshot are the exact same as the Traveller Book personal combat system. Modifiers are the same. Same throws are needed. Combat round is the same length. Weapons do the same damage. First Blood rule is applied the same. Weakened Blow rule is used the same. Damage is applied the same. Armor is handled the same. Range is handled the same.

IT'S THE SAME FRIGGIN' COMBAT SYSTEM! The only thing that is different is that action points and tactical movement is used.

Book 1 combat provides for either free form movement, with or without Range Bands, or grid movement.

Snapshot is the same combat system but providing action point and tactical movement.

Heck, on pg. 1 of Snapshot, it says, plain as day, "Snapshot is an adaptation of the personal combat rules given in Book 1 of Traveller...the extent of the adaptation includes a conversion from a range-only system to a square grid, and the incorporation of both clarifications and enhancements."

Else why bother with temporary UPP values?

The same reason you bother with hit points. As the quote from Snapshot says, it's a bookeeping tool.

And the first blood rule, darn rights if you get into a firefight on day 1 and then later on day 2 you get into a sword fight there's going to be a first blood shock effect to apply. That's how it should be. Else why bother. "It's ok guys, I was in a firefight 4 years ago, no first blood damage is gonna affect me." or "Hey ref, I poke myself with a sharp stick for 1 point of first blood damage. Now let's spring the ambush and attack."

No sir. The first blood rule applies when a character is at full health. If the character is damaged...even by one point of damage...then the first blood rule is not used. That's what the rule in the Traveller Book says.

And...if your guy in your example was in a firefight 4 years ago, why isn't his hit points up to max and him healed?

 

[Supplement Four]

It is either contradicting itself or the first rule is supposed to apply to the end of the fight where the injury is inflicted, after which it no longer applies.

The book is pointing out the exception.

Now, is there any reason why any of the other, equally clear, statements should not be interpreted to likewise apply to the end of the fight and no longer?

And the quote from Snapshot is doggone clear, and supports the other quotes in the Traveller Book.



See...this is why CT gets a bad rap sometimes. People, who've been playing the game for decades, really don't know how to play it as written.

 

[Supplement Four]

We were, but nope Not yet To be honest I'm not sure either of us will be budged and that's cool. It's always good hashing out stuff on the off chance a sudden revelation will be discovered.

Dan,

Would it help if I showed you where it says, in Snapshot, that Snapshot incorporates both clarifications and enhancements of Book 1 combat?

Because, it does say that.

And, it also says that wounding stats is just a bookkeeping system.

 

[rancke]

It is either contradicting itself or the first rule is supposed to apply to the end of the fight where the injury is inflicted, after which it no longer applies.

The book is pointing out the exception.

How do you know that for certain sure?

See...this is why CT gets a bad rap sometimes. People, who've been playing the game for decades, really don't know how to play it as written.

I'm not sure I ever played it as written.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

The Scarlet Cavillers ride again...

No sir. The first blood rule applies when a character is at full health... That's what the rule in the Traveller Book says.

No, that's not what the rule says. There is no mention of "full health". It simply says "first wound" and the only logical interpretation that isn't open to abuse is "in that engagement".

And...if your guy in your example was in a firefight 4 years ago, why isn't his hit points up to max and him healed?

He's a Traveller, he doesn't have hit points (sorry, couldn't resist, just joking around ). But seriously... ish...

There's nothing in the rule, taken literally as you seem wont to do to support your take, that says anything about "full health" though. It says simply, "first wound" and that character's "first wound" was 4 years ago. Are you reading it to mean "fresh wound" maybe? But then can you not have "fresh wounds" while still recovering?

Care to play ref on my other scenario

"I poke myself with a pointed stick for 1 point of damage (on my full health UPP)."

Heck, it may not even be an actual flesh puncture by your claim (not all hits are bullets in bodies right), but just a near miss that gets my heart racing or whatever.

"First blood goes on (rolls D6) Dex. Now let's spring that ambush!"