Using Striker for CT Combat...

[tbeard1999]

I've always liked the Striker combat system and thought it would almost make a good replacement for the CT combat system. And since my games traditionally have lots of explosions and vehicles, Striker's vehicle definition capabilities were very useful. All that said, the following problems made me ultimately abandon Striker. Maybe some others could suggest fixes or alternatives.

1. What about big stuff?

I actually like the light wound-severe wound-dead system in Striker, especially for NPCs. The problem arises when you try to apply this to creatures much bigger than a human. A shot that kills a human won't always be enough to kill an elephant.

2. Converting Damage into Points for PCs

Recap -- in Striker, roll to hit. Then, roll 2D + penetration - armor. The number rolled yields one of three wound levels -- light, serious, dead.

Striker suggests that you convert a light wound to 3D damage (WAY too much in my opinion), a heavy wound to 6D damage (again, WAY too much) and dead as, well, dead. I reject this solution since it requires me to make a third roll for damage. The damage ought to be reduced to at most 2D and 4D, I think, but there's still that third roll. One idea was to convert the final total rolled into damage points, but I never could really make that work.

3. Penetration = Damage

Striker unavoidably equates damage and penetration. This makes weaponry far too lethal against unarmored targets. It also poorly simulates weapons with ferocious damage capability but poor armor penetration (shotguns for instance). As an aside, I really liked the T4 damage mechanic. Weapons were rated in dice damage, but the maximum damage was 3D (4D for shotguns and really big stuff). So high penetration weapons (with a high number of damage dice) weren't unusually lethal against armored targets. My only problem is that this system either requires the GM to make all damage rolls or disclose what armor a target is wearing. I also think that the maximum damage should be increased depending on the size of the target. Little chance of "blowthrough" on an elephant.

And for what it's worth, I don't like the CT basic combat system for 4 reasons:

1. It gets absurdly easy to hit and penetrate targets with Book 4 weapons (and Book 4 weapon skill levels).

2. No inherent capability to model attacks on vechicles. (The best I could do was treat vehicle armor as Battledress +X...not satisfying to me).

3.Too much table fussiness (even though the Snapshot chart was a big help).

4. I'm not a big fan of applying damage in die-sized chunks. I'd rather say "you took eleven hits" than "you took three, three and five hits..."

To make my wish almost completely beyond reason, I want a system that will be as interoperable with the stats in CT adventures as possible. Conversions should ideally be fast and easy.

So any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[tbeard1999]

I've always liked the Striker combat system and thought it would almost make a good replacement for the CT combat system. And since my games traditionally have lots of explosions and vehicles, Striker's vehicle definition capabilities were very useful. All that said, the following problems made me ultimately abandon Striker. Maybe some others could suggest fixes or alternatives.

1. What about big stuff?

I actually like the light wound-severe wound-dead system in Striker, especially for NPCs. The problem arises when you try to apply this to creatures much bigger than a human. A shot that kills a human won't always be enough to kill an elephant.

2. Converting Damage into Points for PCs

Recap -- in Striker, roll to hit. Then, roll 2D + penetration - armor. The number rolled yields one of three wound levels -- light, serious, dead.

Striker suggests that you convert a light wound to 3D damage (WAY too much in my opinion), a heavy wound to 6D damage (again, WAY too much) and dead as, well, dead. I reject this solution since it requires me to make a third roll for damage. The damage ought to be reduced to at most 2D and 4D, I think, but there's still that third roll. One idea was to convert the final total rolled into damage points, but I never could really make that work.

3. Penetration = Damage

Striker unavoidably equates damage and penetration. This makes weaponry far too lethal against unarmored targets. It also poorly simulates weapons with ferocious damage capability but poor armor penetration (shotguns for instance). As an aside, I really liked the T4 damage mechanic. Weapons were rated in dice damage, but the maximum damage was 3D (4D for shotguns and really big stuff). So high penetration weapons (with a high number of damage dice) weren't unusually lethal against armored targets. My only problem is that this system either requires the GM to make all damage rolls or disclose what armor a target is wearing. I also think that the maximum damage should be increased depending on the size of the target. Little chance of "blowthrough" on an elephant.

And for what it's worth, I don't like the CT basic combat system for 4 reasons:

1. It gets absurdly easy to hit and penetrate targets with Book 4 weapons (and Book 4 weapon skill levels).

2. No inherent capability to model attacks on vechicles. (The best I could do was treat vehicle armor as Battledress +X...not satisfying to me).

3.Too much table fussiness (even though the Snapshot chart was a big help).

4. I'm not a big fan of applying damage in die-sized chunks. I'd rather say "you took eleven hits" than "you took three, three and five hits..."

To make my wish almost completely beyond reason, I want a system that will be as interoperable with the stats in CT adventures as possible. Conversions should ideally be fast and easy.

So any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's the CT+ combat system that was thrashed out over the summer:

Here's a summary:

1) Initiative

This is determined by:

Dex/4 + highest relevant combat skill + 1d6

Put them in order of highest to lowest and then count down, highest initiative goes first – a tie is simultaneous - "who has twelve? go" "who has eleven? go" etc.

When a character reaches his initiative segment, he may opt to hold his action until later, i.e. he waits until someone else's action and expends it then – just before they act.

There are several permitted actions during a combat turn, examples include:

snapshot - can move and fire - effective range is reduced to Dex in metres, regardless of weapon type

aimed shot – may make a up to a half move - use task/range of weapon or weapon+sight

prepared shot - spend a turn aiming and reduce the task difficulty of your next aimed attack by one level

2) To hit
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> effective
C S M L VL
natural 8 8 - - - includes daggers, blades, broken bottles etc.
melee 12 8 - - -
handguns 8 8 8 12 16
carbines 12 8 8 12 16 includes smgs, assault rifles
w/sight 12 8 8 8 12
rifle 12 8 8 8 12
w/sight 12 8 8 8 8</pre>

(all longarms are effectively at -4 to hit if within close melee range of your target)

you only get the sight benefit with an aimed, or a prepared, shot.

increase the difficulty again for firing beyond very long range, up to the limit of the weapon.

Weapons can be aimed at unarmoured locations, or more vulnerable locations on whole suit armour, this raises the task by a difficulty level, but halves the AR – or ignores it if an unarmoured location is targeted.


3) Damage

Each weapon has a number of damage dice that are rolled on a successful hit
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">body pistol 3d
auto pistol 3d
revolver 3d
snub pistol – HEAP 4d - ap
- HE 4d - eb
laser pistol 3d

carbine 3d
smg 3d
laser carbine 4d

rifle 3d
shotgun 4d
autorifle 3d
assault rifle 3d
ACR - DS 3d - ap
- HE 4d - eb
Gauss Rifle 4d - ap
Accelerator Rifle 3d
laser rifle 5d
PGMP12 10d</pre>[/QUOTE]ap = armour piercing (AR is halved round down)
eb = explosive burst
HEAP rounds are armour piercing


Exceptional success (rolling 4 or higher over your target number) gets an additional damage die.

Burst fire adds two damage dice.

Explosive burst rounds get to add an additional damage die for each six rolled on the damage dice.

Armour subtracts from damage dice. On a successful hit roll damage dice, remove one damage die at a time for each point of effective AR until only one die of damage remains. Subtract any remaining AR points from the value of that last remaining die.

The dice should be removed lowest to highest.

Armour ARs are:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">jack (1)
mesh (2)
cloth 5
CEV 6
combat armour 10
ablat 1[6]</pre>[/QUOTE]() = AR is halved vs modern firearms
[] = AR applies vs lasers only

Any damage remaining is applied to the physical characteristics of the wounded party, with the controlling player deciding how the points are allocated.

Strength - damage to muscle
Dexterity - damage to sensory and nervous system
Endurance - organ damage, blood loss


An exceptional success cause all damage to a single characteristic, determined randomly. This represents the massive trauma that can occur if something vital is hit:

Strength - bone hit
Dexterity - head/spine hit
Endurance - major organ punctured/nicked artery[/quote]

 

[mike wightman]

Here's the CT+ combat system that was thrashed out over the summer:

Here's a summary:

1) Initiative

This is determined by:

Dex/4 + highest relevant combat skill + 1d6

Put them in order of highest to lowest and then count down, highest initiative goes first – a tie is simultaneous - "who has twelve? go" "who has eleven? go" etc.

When a character reaches his initiative segment, he may opt to hold his action until later, i.e. he waits until someone else's action and expends it then – just before they act.

There are several permitted actions during a combat turn, examples include:

snapshot - can move and fire - effective range is reduced to Dex in metres, regardless of weapon type

aimed shot – may make a up to a half move - use task/range of weapon or weapon+sight

prepared shot - spend a turn aiming and reduce the task difficulty of your next aimed attack by one level

2) To hit
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> effective
C S M L VL
natural 8 8 - - - includes daggers, blades, broken bottles etc.
melee 12 8 - - -
handguns 8 8 8 12 16
carbines 12 8 8 12 16 includes smgs, assault rifles
w/sight 12 8 8 8 12
rifle 12 8 8 8 12
w/sight 12 8 8 8 8</pre>

(all longarms are effectively at -4 to hit if within close melee range of your target)

you only get the sight benefit with an aimed, or a prepared, shot.

increase the difficulty again for firing beyond very long range, up to the limit of the weapon.

Weapons can be aimed at unarmoured locations, or more vulnerable locations on whole suit armour, this raises the task by a difficulty level, but halves the AR – or ignores it if an unarmoured location is targeted.


3) Damage

Each weapon has a number of damage dice that are rolled on a successful hit
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">body pistol 3d
auto pistol 3d
revolver 3d
snub pistol – HEAP 4d - ap
- HE 4d - eb
laser pistol 3d

carbine 3d
smg 3d
laser carbine 4d

rifle 3d
shotgun 4d
autorifle 3d
assault rifle 3d
ACR - DS 3d - ap
- HE 4d - eb
Gauss Rifle 4d - ap
Accelerator Rifle 3d
laser rifle 5d
PGMP12 10d</pre>[/QUOTE]ap = armour piercing (AR is halved round down)
eb = explosive burst
HEAP rounds are armour piercing


Exceptional success (rolling 4 or higher over your target number) gets an additional damage die.

Burst fire adds two damage dice.

Explosive burst rounds get to add an additional damage die for each six rolled on the damage dice.

Armour subtracts from damage dice. On a successful hit roll damage dice, remove one damage die at a time for each point of effective AR until only one die of damage remains. Subtract any remaining AR points from the value of that last remaining die.

The dice should be removed lowest to highest.

Armour ARs are:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">jack (1)
mesh (2)
cloth 5
CEV 6
combat armour 10
ablat 1[6]</pre>[/QUOTE]() = AR is halved vs modern firearms
[] = AR applies vs lasers only

Any damage remaining is applied to the physical characteristics of the wounded party, with the controlling player deciding how the points are allocated.

Strength - damage to muscle
Dexterity - damage to sensory and nervous system
Endurance - organ damage, blood loss


An exceptional success cause all damage to a single characteristic, determined randomly. This represents the massive trauma that can occur if something vital is hit:

Strength - bone hit
Dexterity - head/spine hit
Endurance - major organ punctured/nicked artery[/quote]

 

[The Oz]

I've always liked Michael Wharton's system for blending CT and STRIKER, first published in JTAS#16.

He keeps the damage done by each weapon as it is given in CT (so many d6) but uses the STRIKER weapon penetration and armor protection ratings to determine how well the weapon penetrated the armor in question. This requires a 2d6 armor penetration roll (but only if the target is armored) modified by the weapon penetration and armor ratings. The end result of this roll is a modifier (from 0 to -6) that is applied to =every die= of damage done by that weapon. So if the weapon has low penetration (or the armor is very good) even a weapon doing 8D damage might not do much injury when each of those eight dice has a -5 applied to it. But that same weapon hits a lightly protected target and OUCH!

The way his system works, any weapon with a penetration 7+ better than the armor always does full damage, and any armor 11+ better than the weapon always stops all damage.

Michael also recommends using the CT Close and Short range modifers for STRIKER weapons, to better simulate the usual kind of CT combat inside a starship or at knife-fighting ranges. The idea here is to make pistols and such more useable, and make it harder to use longer weapons at melee combat ranges. Doing this does add two more combat ranges to STRIKER weapon data, so you would have Close (range 0 meters), Short (to 5 meters), and then Effective, Long, and Extreme as published in STRIKER.

The best way to do this is to have the PC write up weapons tables for all his guns, giving the base to-hit roll for each range band, and the weapon's penetration at that range.

 

[The Oz]

I've always liked Michael Wharton's system for blending CT and STRIKER, first published in JTAS#16.

He keeps the damage done by each weapon as it is given in CT (so many d6) but uses the STRIKER weapon penetration and armor protection ratings to determine how well the weapon penetrated the armor in question. This requires a 2d6 armor penetration roll (but only if the target is armored) modified by the weapon penetration and armor ratings. The end result of this roll is a modifier (from 0 to -6) that is applied to =every die= of damage done by that weapon. So if the weapon has low penetration (or the armor is very good) even a weapon doing 8D damage might not do much injury when each of those eight dice has a -5 applied to it. But that same weapon hits a lightly protected target and OUCH!

The way his system works, any weapon with a penetration 7+ better than the armor always does full damage, and any armor 11+ better than the weapon always stops all damage.

Michael also recommends using the CT Close and Short range modifers for STRIKER weapons, to better simulate the usual kind of CT combat inside a starship or at knife-fighting ranges. The idea here is to make pistols and such more useable, and make it harder to use longer weapons at melee combat ranges. Doing this does add two more combat ranges to STRIKER weapon data, so you would have Close (range 0 meters), Short (to 5 meters), and then Effective, Long, and Extreme as published in STRIKER.

The best way to do this is to have the PC write up weapons tables for all his guns, giving the base to-hit roll for each range band, and the weapon's penetration at that range.

 

[Golan2072]

As The Oz has beat me to saying, JTAS #16 pp.43-45 had rule suggestions to this effect. I like parts of them, and dislike others - tomorrow (hopefully) I'll post my own variant here.

 

[Golan2072]

As The Oz has beat me to saying, JTAS #16 pp.43-45 had rule suggestions to this effect. I like parts of them, and dislike others - tomorrow (hopefully) I'll post my own variant here.

 

[mike wightman]

I've still got my index cards for each weapon's to hit roll, modified by range and no armour from the original combat matrices.

But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

[aside]I wonder if the amount you make your to hit roll by can be used to modify damage?
Time for a new thread.[/aside]

 

[mike wightman]

I've still got my index cards for each weapon's to hit roll, modified by range and no armour from the original combat matrices.

But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

[aside]I wonder if the amount you make your to hit roll by can be used to modify damage?
Time for a new thread.[/aside]

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[aside]I wonder if the amount you make your to hit roll by can be used to modify damage?
Time for a new thread.[/aside]

How's this?

Every +4 over what you need to hit gives you +1 on every die of damage that weapon does. This additional damage can be offset by the armor penetration roll (which produces -DMs for each die of damage).

This suggestion is for those using Michael Wharton's CT/STRIKER combination, of course.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[aside]I wonder if the amount you make your to hit roll by can be used to modify damage?
Time for a new thread.[/aside]

How's this?

Every +4 over what you need to hit gives you +1 on every die of damage that weapon does. This additional damage can be offset by the armor penetration roll (which produces -DMs for each die of damage).

This suggestion is for those using Michael Wharton's CT/STRIKER combination, of course.

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I've still got my index cards for each weapon's to hit roll, modified by range and no armour from the original combat matrices.

How about the Traveller cards mentioned long ago

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

I like rules lite as well, could you elaborate or post the thread containing Mr. Daryen's suggestion... Thanks

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I've still got my index cards for each weapon's to hit roll, modified by range and no armour from the original combat matrices.

How about the Traveller cards mentioned long ago

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

I like rules lite as well, could you elaborate or post the thread containing Mr. Daryen's suggestion... Thanks

 

[Uncle Bob]

What bothered us was the excessive damage caused by high penetrating. Our fix was to note the number of die damage from Book 2/4 and make that modifier the maximum adder to the damage roll. I.e, when you use a gauss rifle, the damage roll (2D6 + Penet - Armor) can never be higher than 2D6+4.

I treated large creatures as having extra armor

 

[Uncle Bob]

What bothered us was the excessive damage caused by high penetrating. Our fix was to note the number of die damage from Book 2/4 and make that modifier the maximum adder to the damage roll. I.e, when you use a gauss rifle, the damage roll (2D6 + Penet - Armor) can never be higher than 2D6+4.

I treated large creatures as having extra armor

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

Interesting side-note (Or, maybe not so interesting side note).

CTI started life as a One Die Classic Traveller system.

And, it's easy to still use the system that way.

One roll (or series of rolls, if you get to re-roll) covers to-hit, damage, and hit location.

It's a mean, lean, game system.

I mention it because you're into streamlining, Sig.

Here's how it works.

You roll your CTI dice, one at a time, and get a total.

If you hit, whatever was thrown over your target is your base damage.

If a hit was made, then additional damage due to your weapon is added.

The last result of your die is your hit location.


-------------
Quickie example
-------------

Fred has DEX-7 and Revolver-2. He fires at a target at Short range.

1D is thrown. Result is a 4. One re-roll allowed because total is lower than Stat. A 5 turns up on the re-roll.

9 +2 (Range) = 11 (Skill is already considered in the rolling above--we're consolidating, Sig!).


8+ was needed to hit. Fred hit with his 11, and he has a base damage of 3 points (11-8).

Then, we add in extra damage due to the weapon used (use a +1 for every "D" of damage). A revolver does +3.

So, in TWO quick rolls of a single die...

(1) We know that Fred hit.

(2) We know that Fred did 6 points of damage.

(3) We know that Fred hit the target's hit location #5 (we'll say that's his left leg).




And...guess what! This system also defines every level of stat and skill with a different benefit!

Whaddya think of that, Sig, for consolidation?

Two rolls...everything you need to know for the combat round.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
But these days I'm very much into rules lite, minimum number of die rolls and all that.

I want one to hit roll and one damage roll (I've even dropped the hit location bit thanks to something daryen posted), it speeds play.

Interesting side-note (Or, maybe not so interesting side note).

CTI started life as a One Die Classic Traveller system.

And, it's easy to still use the system that way.

One roll (or series of rolls, if you get to re-roll) covers to-hit, damage, and hit location.

It's a mean, lean, game system.

I mention it because you're into streamlining, Sig.

Here's how it works.

You roll your CTI dice, one at a time, and get a total.

If you hit, whatever was thrown over your target is your base damage.

If a hit was made, then additional damage due to your weapon is added.

The last result of your die is your hit location.


-------------
Quickie example
-------------

Fred has DEX-7 and Revolver-2. He fires at a target at Short range.

1D is thrown. Result is a 4. One re-roll allowed because total is lower than Stat. A 5 turns up on the re-roll.

9 +2 (Range) = 11 (Skill is already considered in the rolling above--we're consolidating, Sig!).


8+ was needed to hit. Fred hit with his 11, and he has a base damage of 3 points (11-8).

Then, we add in extra damage due to the weapon used (use a +1 for every "D" of damage). A revolver does +3.

So, in TWO quick rolls of a single die...

(1) We know that Fred hit.

(2) We know that Fred did 6 points of damage.

(3) We know that Fred hit the target's hit location #5 (we'll say that's his left leg).




And...guess what! This system also defines every level of stat and skill with a different benefit!

Whaddya think of that, Sig, for consolidation?

Two rolls...everything you need to know for the combat round.

 

[aramis]

A system I used for CT+Striker was (Pen+2d6-AV)*(CT Dice). This gives a nice damage-to-atts approach. Ignore the step shifts from Striker when using this.

 

[aramis]

A system I used for CT+Striker was (Pen+2d6-AV)*(CT Dice). This gives a nice damage-to-atts approach. Ignore the step shifts from Striker when using this.