Venus as the Moon

[daryen]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Don't let it get to you, pal. Tom obviously knows as much about genetics as he does about orbital mechanics and the fragility of history.

I don't. I just wanted to make sure that Tom's dive off the deep end was NOT what I was suggesting.

My main point of the suggestion, aside from helping with the genetics issue, was to try and give a moral issue that would cause problems between the colonists and those back on Earth. Such tension is always a good thing for a good background. I just didn't expect the potential referee to be the one going bonkers.

However, following Tom's 5 pregnancies in 10 years suggestion would put quite a physical strain on the female members of the mission. They'll be pregnant for nearly half of every two year period and will be caring for children the rest of the time.

There is no doubt that any women on the mission would have to be completely committed to the task. Having to both pull their own weight and be continuously (or nearly so) pregnant for a decade (or more) is a massive responsibility. Oddly enough, I don't think they would have a huge problem getting volunteers.

I would just hope that those who come later (and those born on-world) would remember the sacrifices of those first women.

 

[jonathonbarton]

Originally posted by daryen:
...(one of those three marriages you mention are almost guaranteed to fail), so your comparison is ridiculous, but you wouldn't understand.

Well, a week or so, and a LOT of pages have come and gone, and I've got all caught up...and have just one question..

Tom, what is it exactly that you want from us?
Initially, ISTR you asking us for our ideas on what would happen specifically in the space race of the 60s, if you replaced the moon with Venus.

I've since seen you go through such flamewars and gyrations trying to do....something...I'm not quite sure what, that you've seen the far side of having Alien armies of *nanobots* moving planets around the system...

I feel like you have some vision you're chasing, and you want some input from us, but you're either not being specific enough in what you want, or you're not being firm enough when the ideas that are being passed around are outside the parameters of what you'd like to consider. Not in a "I don't want to do that" sort of way, but a "You know, I understand that in *reality* Earth and Venus would be tidelocked, but this is Sci-Fi, and it's outside the scope of what I'm trying to accomplish for my players... Thanks, though! So, what's your take on how the space-race from 1960 to 1970 would be different given this particular set of circumstances?"

Anyway, in reply to...Daryen...I thought it interesting (back on Pg 1 or 2) that both Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin divorced their wives after the Apollo 11 mission...but the Collinses are still married.

That's good TV, lemme tell ya!

 

[TKalbfus]

Sigg Oddra said,

Artificial insemination of each of the female astronauts by a different male astronaut for each pregnancy could work.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, but why restrict this only to ova from colonists on Venus. Fertilized Ovum is very light and can be kept frozen until needed. Anyway genetic diversity won't really start to be a problem until 1994. The founders of the colony won't be related to each other, so they can establish conventional family structures for the raising of their children. Most of the people who had reached adulthood by 1969 had both a mother and a father and were raised in intact family structures, although that was beginning to change with woman's lib, the nuclear family was still the dominant structure for raising children. Typically Mom was a housewife who stayed at home while Dad went to work to "earn the bread". Although their were radical communes in the 60s that practised "free love" I doubt NASA would be the one to use that as a basis for founding one of its colonies. It does nothing to increase genetic diversity in anycase, it just means that the first full generation on Venus will be a bunch of half-sisters and half-brothers, its hard to tell who is completely unrelated to you so you can mate with them. People who have a mother in common may have different fathers, people who have different mothers may have the same father, and that is where the trouble lay. A person will know who his mother is, but won't necessarily know who his father is and without that information, he won't know who is his half-sister and who is not. One will need genetic testing to determine whether someone will make a suitable mate. With the traditional family structure, you know the identity of both your mother and father without genetic testing. (assuming both parents stayed faithful, but even if the parents were unfaithful, having NASA officially encourage the colonists to switch partners would only make matters worse.)
After the first full Venusian generation reaches adulthood, more frozen fertilized ovum can be imported from Earth, as of 1994 this technology is available. Even after the 1 generation reaches maturity, the only people they are prevented from mating with are their own immediate brothers and sisters. If conventional family structures hold it should be obvious who are your siblings and who are not. Once that second generation reaches maturity in 2019, perhaps scramjets will be available, single stage to orbit vehicles that can land on both Venus or Earth, or perhaps even space elevators for both planets. At the very least more frozen fertilized human ovum can be rocketed to Venus from Earth.

Here are my population projections American colony only to keep things simple:
1969: 6 (3 men and 3 women)
1994: 21 (the original crew + 5 children per family; NASA can always send up crew replacements for those who die in accidents or various other causes)
2019: 63 (The first generation + the second generation; 9 families are assumed for the first generation as these include 3 extra people sent up by NASA in 1994. The founders of the colony are not included here as they are either assumed to be retired or dead as without modern hospitals, only basic medicine can be practised and human life expectancy is expected to be less here than on Earth.)

 

[TKalbfus]

Bill Cameron said,

However, following Tom's 5 pregnancies in 10 years suggestion would put quite a physical strain on the female members of the mission. They'll be pregnant for nearly half of every two year period and will be caring for children the rest of the time(1). There will be social consequences too. With the female members limited to certain tasks by necessity, the mission could very well see itself rapidly become structured in a 'peasent' mode; i.e. man's work, woman's work, etc.

Hopefully once the population reaches the point where each woman's contribution to society is five pregnancies, the social structure can become more egalitarian.

There are certian unpleasant realities here. I actually said 5 pregnancies in 5 years, not 10. It seems better to me to get all the children born as soon as possible. One must remember there are no modern hospitals here, yes one of the crew members will probably be a medical doctor, but their is a limit to what one fully trained medical doctor can do, and he will probably have to be a general practitioner rather than an Obstatritian or a Gynecologist. Much will depend on having healthy mothers and healthy babies. miscarriages will occur, some children will die before they reach adulthood and there are no modern hospitals, just one doctor and a medical bay with limited medicine and medical equipment available. Nothing can be sent to Earth, and nothing can be sent from Earth on short notice. Probably each mission is planned at least a year in advance. Saturn V rocket boosters will have to be set aside for medical emergency contigency missions, and I don't know how long it would take to prep a Saturn V for launch, much less build one, I assume it would probably be a few months at least.

 

[TKalbfus]

Daryen said,

I don't. I just wanted to make sure that Tom's dive off the deep end was NOT what I was suggesting.

My main point of the suggestion, aside from helping with the genetics issue, was to try and give a moral issue that would cause problems between the colonists and those back on Earth. Such tension is always a good thing for a good background. I just didn't expect the potential referee to be the one going bonkers.

I didn't go bonkers, my mistake was to give you first the social reasons why this wouldn't work before the Genetic ones. As I explained in the above posts, traditional family structures make it easy to identify your siblings, and once you know who your siblings are, you don't include them in the pool of available potential spouses. Most frontier families are very traditional, it is not because they are all crusty old conservatives, but because this works best when you are alone and isolated and must depend on yourselves to survive in a hostile wilderness. The wilderness is hostile by the way, many of the animals will see the colonists as a potential meal, and such creatures will outnumber humans on the planet by a very significant amount. The colonists will have to abandon the environmentalist mode of thinking for a while and concentrate on survival against the elements for a time. There is little they can deliberately do to harm the environment in any case as there are too few of them to make a difference. So if an animal threatens you, you shoot it, if possible you may try to eliminate the population of that animal in the immediate environs surrounding the base, or you can build a tall fence, these are just practical survival issues.

 

[TKalbfus]

Temperate Forest Encounter Table
Encounter #2
Rake
Medium (100 kg) Carnivore Pouncer
Stamina Dice: 3d10+1 (16 St))
Lifeblood: 11
Initiative: +6
To Attack: If surprise
To Flee: If Suprised
Speed: 64m (Run 320m)
Armor Class: 18
Armor Rating: 6
Attack: Bite +3 melee (2d6+4), claw +1 melee (1d6+2), tail lash +1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 1.5m/1.5m
Special Abilities: None
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 4, Wis 2, Cha 9
Skills: Climb +4, Hide +6, Jump +4, Move Silently +4
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Stealthy
Environment: Any forest, plains, or hills
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pride 3-6
This reptilian creature has flattened ears and 4 legs underneath it ending in paws with upward positioned claws plus a long spiny tail. The rake has an elongated muzzle with razor-sharp teeth, brown eyes pointing forward and is covered with grey scales.
Rakes are so named due to their rake like claws that extend from above their 4-toed paws and opposing thumbs. The claws are in an up position when the paws are used for walking, but when used for a claw attack, the claws curl downward like a velociraptor, hence the Rake name for the creature. This creature can also use its claws to climb trees where it awaits for prey to pounce upon, and has a tail to lash out at its enemies should it find itself overmatched by its prey.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
There are certian unpleasant realities here. I actually said 5 pregnancies in 5 years, not 10.

GOOD. SWEET. CHRIST. FIVE pregnancies in FIVE years? Are you insane?

There are certain unpleasent realities? A bit of an understatement there Tom. More like utterly divorced from any conception of reality I'd say.

It seems better to me to get all the children born as soon as possible.

No matter if it destroys the female half of your mission?

One must remember there are no modern hospitals here...

Try remembering that yourself when you propose five pregnancies in five years for each female mission member.

I recently saw a Seinfeld rerun in which George was looking for exit lines; those little conversational bon mots that let you leave a meeting or grathering gracefully. He came up with a few and always ended them with That's all! I'm outta here!. Let me take a page from his book...

FIVE pregnancies in FIVE years? That's all! I'm outta here!

Have fun re-writing the Gor novels for Traveller, Tom. I for one will no longer be paying any attention.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[TKalbfus]

Bill Cameron, trying to be controversial as usual.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
There are certian unpleasant realities here. I actually said 5 pregnancies in 5 years, not 10.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GOOD. SWEET. CHRIST. FIVE pregnancies in FIVE years? Are you insane?

There are certain unpleasent realities? A bit of an understatement there Tom. More like utterly divorced from any conception of reality I'd say.

You should have seen the Family Ben Franklin was born is in 1703 I think or thereabouts. There were 10 children in his family! You think 5 is such a large number?
Well, you should remember that the gestation period is 9 months, and that is less than a year. I have also met families where one sibling was only 1 year older than the other, so on the face of it, 5 children in 5 years is not so incredible, and it happens all the time, I don't know what you think is so jaw dropping about it.

You should stop applying the standards of modern society on the families that are living on the frontier. In a frontier setting such as I described, the more children the better. If you insist that each family have only 2.3 children as in modern civilized America, then they can look forward to possible having no children survive to adulthood. Are you forgetting that there are no hospitals here, or that the wildlife isn't so tame as they are in our national parks? You land on a new planet and you expect the colonists to recreate the suburbs with backyard barbicues and the like? Have you taken a look at the last creature I made right above your post? That creature can eat children! Its better to have as many children as possible so that should you lose some, you'll still have other's left to help you out on the farm, that's the reality the pioneers faced, and that situation is recreated here on the surface of this planet. I get the feeling sometimes that your Traveller Adventures are fairly tame and sedate, and that exploring new planets is not very dangerous as they are full of cuddly little creatures that love to be petted by children, without a predator any larger or more dangerous than a kitten.

It seems better to me to get all the children born as soon as possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No matter if it destroys the female half of your mission?

Women are built to have children! Give me a break! A healthy woman can give birth to one child and have another child the very next year, only unhealthy women have problems and NASA sees to it that the women they send are healthy, otherwise they don't send them. In fact a healthy woman can give birth to two children at once, perhaps you've might have heard about the phenominon. its called twins. It just so happens than my mother and uncle were born from the same mother on the same day. Better write the tabloids about this one, Twins Born of the Same Mother!
Bill, you just want an argument it seems, so your trying hard to find something to argue about. I'm just looking for some help to build my monster list for this planet. If you don't want to help, and can only whine and complain, why don't you just shut up and let others contribute constructively. I never asked for people to reinvent the relationship between man and woman, that was volunteered and all sorts of wacko ideas from left field came to the fore, ideas so weird and strange that I just had to comment on them and knock em off the self for how totally weird and off base they really are. The science fiction is supposed to be on this planet, the astronauts don't suddenly change their behavior and start acting like a bunch of weird aliens just because they came to another planet. I had to waste time refuting these nutty ideas from the weird wacko factory rather than concentrate on the setting and wildlife of this planet. If you want to go live in an orgy hippie commune where everybody shares his girlfriend with everyone else go right ahead, but it has no place on a realistic colony world.

 

[Malenfant]

Tom, you have a real talent for saying things that are just mind-bogglingly wrong and pissing people off, you know that?

Now, I'm just going to duck behind some cover here, because I think Bill is well within his rights to rip you a new orifice given your astoundingly presumptiuous response.

 

[mike wightman]

This will not end well...

 

[TKalbfus]

Malenfant said,

Tom, you have a real talent for saying things that are just mind-bogglingly wrong and pissing people off, you know that?

Now, I'm just going to duck behind some cover here, because I think Bill is well within his rights to rip you a new orifice given your astoundingly presumptiuous response.

Look, I'm just trying to compile a list of creatures for this planet and somebody comes up with this weird idea of having the astronauts form a sleep around community to enhance genetic diversity, and I was just creating a mathematical example of how it would do just the opposite, and then Bill starts nitpicking the fact that the women had children so close together in time. It doesn't really matter. I just like a simple example and it simplfies things if you assume all the children are born close together and they all reach maturity at the same time to prove the point in concrete terms. This example would work out roughly the same if the children were born in a more staggered fashion. The point is traditional families preserve genetic diversity over a few generations while sleeping around mixes up the genes much more quickly. Bill wants to nitpick around unimportant stuff because he wants to argue, its as simple as that.

 

[Malenfant]

Your point isn't the issue (though it's probably wrong).

It's the way that you go from "you can't grasp the concept of women being baby factories" to "I don't care what you say" and "you're just looking for an argument" (with anyone who disagrees with you) and "I bet your games are really tame and sedate" (for which there is no evidence at all) and labelling any different view as something from a "weirdo wacko factory". You simply cannot grasp the concept that other people might actually know more than you do about something, and when people try to give you a different approach or help you out you're just flat out not interested in it and to cap it all you throw cheap insinuations at them for trying. You just have no idea whatsoever how to discuss anything.

Fact is, you're not interested in input, and yoy're certainly not interested in criticism - you just want to post your own (very flawed, at best) ideas. If you want to do that, then post this stuff on your own website and leave it at that, and stop wasting our time here - because if you post anything on a forum, it WILL get discussed.

 

[TKalbfus]

Malenfant said,

It's the way that you go from "you can't grasp the concept of women being baby factories" to "I don't care what you say" and "you're just looking for an argument"

That is just a mathematical example, historically women have had more than 5 children, and that happens even today, just look at the West Bank and those Palestinians you so ardently champion, they're women are what you'd term baby factories. The only thing that's required is lots of sex and no contraception and women will have babies practically every year, in order not to have that, you need either contraception or to practise abstinence. Why do you get so upset about it? Its only a game, these aren't real people. What I really wanted to discuss was the various creatures I'm putting up and see what others people might have in mind, basically to develop the setting, but it seems people like yourself and Bill are more interested in the colonists than in the planet. I'm not looking for an argument at all, but if someone offers an idea I don't like I will say so. Would you, Malenfant, want to share your wife or girlfriend with someone else? Or how about several other people in a sleep around community where everybody gets to share their veneal disease? I wouldn't, which is why I disagree with the idea, and to make matters worse, it doesn't even improve upon genetic diversity, it spreads genes around much faster leaving fewer people nonrelated for the next generation. Now Malenfant, if you really want to defend this idea, then you must really be generous with your girlfriend or wife and share her with other people.

 

[Malenfant]

Oh fer crying out loud, could you miss my point any more? I don't think you could without going so far out that you actually get closer to it...!

To wit: I don't give a toss about the argument itself (I thought that was painfully obvious). It's the way you're reacting to people who disagree with you that is the problem. I have to admit, at least your talent for making a fool of yourself is consistent across the board...

 

[TKalbfus]

So, you are saying I should agree with every ridiculous idea that gets put up on the board?

"Lets have a free for all Love sharing community where everyone can be a sister and brother."

"Yeah sure why not?"

You Malenfant don't agree with every idea I put up, so why should I agree with every idea someone else puts up. Do you really believe that the sharing of spouses is a good idea when starting a new colony? If not then why are you so animated about it? If you don't give a damn about the argument itself, then why are you arguing? I don't think the traditional family unit is obsolete, do you? Does the fact that I don't like a father and mother who has multiple partners make me a right winger? Its just common sense, people who sleep around bring all sorts of diseases to the family. If you think people are better off not knowing who their real father is, I think that's strange. Yes having a traditional family with a mother and father is old fashioned, but families predate human history and even predate humanity itself! You think some new fangled thing is going to be better than the family because its new? The family has lasted millions of years because it works, no ones going to rewrite child rearing and the stroke of a pen and get every to buy it without a substantial amount of proof. Having a mom and pop is the best way to raise a child until someone can prove that their better than millions of years of nature.

Why are people trying to rewrite human nature, when all I trying to do is create a new setting? The setting is what's new, not the way humans behave or how they raise children, I should have thought that would have been obvious, but I guess you just like to argue, and agreeing with me on anything even if its true is just to unsavory for you. If I say the sky is blue, you'll say, "No it isn't!"

 

[Malenfant]

Godammit, do I have to resort to baby talk here or something?

How much clearer do I have to get? I'm not the one arguing about your stupid colonisation strategies and I don't give a toss what you think about free love, wife-sharing, adultery or anything else like that. Personally, the only thing I was interested in with your scenario was in pointing out the physical errors in your "Venus as moon" scenario, which you then decided to rail against because you thought I was just picking on you. Which is hardly surprising, because you've illustrated that this is your response to anyone who points out any flaws in your ideas.

You just seem to be pathologically incapable of getting a point. Any point at all. Either you have some kind of reading disorder, or you're just plain stupid. If anyone disagrees with you, you think you're being persecuted. If anyone points out where you're wrong, you just flatout ignore them or make up lies about what they say. You can't even seem to grasp the concept that anyone else may be right, or know better than you about something. You see any criticism as an attack, rather than as a way to help you make your work better or to teach you something.

Like I said, you're not interested in discussion or criticism, you just want to post your ideas and expect everyone to say you're right. Well, you're not. If that's all you're going to do then kindly sod off and stop wasting everyone's time here.

Is that clear enough for you? Have you actually understood a word I've said?

 

[TKalbfus]

You already made your point that you don't think the Venus as a Moon scenario could happen in nature, so neither can a space station, doesn't mean I can't use them though. I'm just trying to compile a list of creatures and you keep piping up about unrelated stuff, all I do is respond to it, but I'd rather be making up creatures. If anyone else is interested in making up some creatures, I'd appreciate their participation, because that's real work rather than commenting on the social situation or criticising my criticism of other people's non-related ideas or attempts at side-tracking.

 

[Malenfant]

Still can't ever admit you're wrong, can you Tom.

Well, I'll leave your thread to die the death it deserves.

 

[TKalbfus]

You can't admit your wrong Malenfant. You even take the sides of arguments you don't believe in just to be opposite mine. The problem is, your so darn political, can't you just give it a rest a little? I just feel like developing a setting and would like some contructive contributions and your just trying to score some debate points to inflate your enormous ego. I really don't care about the colonists and what they do, those are the PCs, but if you ask me if certain actions of theirs are wise or not I'll give my opinion and if someone doesn't like it, too bad. I'm really interested in developing this setting though. Malenfant is interested in playing 'Gotcha!', he so determined to prove me wrong, what about? I don't know, what ever it is that I say, he wants to prove me wrong however, its to get revenge for all those political arguments he lost in the political pulpit. I just want to have fun and be creative for a change. This has nothing to do with the real world, so Malenfant should stop getting all emotional, its really unbecoming. I'll go cook up another creature and we'll see if Malenfant can comment about it, or is he going to dig up something entirely unrelated like the sex lives of astronauts or something.

 

[Malenfant]

EDIT: Never mind. It'd be pointless to respond anyway.

Carry on in your la-la land, Tom. It's apparent that you are quite delusional.