Venus as the Moon

[TKalbfus]

That's "I sure wouldn't want someone having an affair with my wife." I don't know what's the matter with my keyboard, but sometimes letters get left off.

 

[TKalbfus]

Malenfant said,

Of course, that in itself is an interesting point - we're still not sure if what gives us our relatively thin atmosphere is the fact that most of it was blasted off by the impact that formed the moon. That didn't happen on Venus, which may be why it has such a thick atmosphere. So just moving it out to Earth's distance wouldn't magically make it habitable - you'd need to remove most of the atmosphere via terraforming anyway.

Perhaps all that atmosphere comes from all the oxygen left over from Venus's missing oceans. Venus's oceans boiled away when the Sun got too hot, the water vapor got in the upper atmosphere where the Sun disassociated the water molecules and the hydrogen escaped into space leaving behind the heavier oxygen. The oxygen oxidized the carbon on the surface as Venus overtuned its crust and exposed more carbon to be oxidized. Eventually all the free oxygen was gone and we now have an ocean of carbon dioxide. The pressure at the bottom of thisz atmosphere are similar to the pressure of the ocean a mile or so below sea level. Since oxygen is what gives water most of its weight, this makes sense.

 

[TKalbfus]

Bill Cameron said,

I've been reading your bumf about Galileo, the D-Day landings, the USSR, and all that and have come to the conlcusion that you know about much about history and what effects history as you do about orbital mechanics and what effects orbital mechanics. Constantine used a term earlier to describe you that I won't use here, but believe me I can definitely see how it may apply.

The alternatives are to conduct the landings at high tide during a full moon so the enemy can see them better, or to conduct the landings at low tide so that the landing boats and soldiers are sure to set off every land mine as they progress inward toward the enemy positions, now which would you choose. I don't have a history book with me, but If I was Eisenhower I'd choose to land during high tide, but maybe Eisenhower was afraid that one of his soldiers might miss setting off a mine because the ocean's water level was too high.

I gave you a link to peruse. It's a good one too and it would have opened your eyes to just how fragile history is if you had just bothered to go there. Instead, you want to keep things simple. That's usually a noble idea. However in this case it's just an excuse for being intellectually lazy.

Yes I know, but if I applied the butterfly effect, and Venus is a really big butterfly, 500 million years ago, then I'm sure the tides would affect continental drift. The continents would move differently collide differently, form different land masses and create different climates than what our Earth experiences today. If Africa is in the wrong place, humanity might not have evolved, so making things different is more a matter of taste. I'm sure if the Players played intelligent aliens from an unfamiliar planet, not much would change significantly as they explored Venus except that they would be totally unfamiliar with their backgrounds as intelligent aliens. GMs like to describe situations in ways that players can relate to and if the players have little in common with the creatures they play, it might as well be a different star system that's light years away.

How do I submit to the FLibrary. The ringworld Idea turned out ultimately to be too open ended. I basically want to have a point where I can define product complete.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
daryen said, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That's not what I meant. Sorry for not being clear.

They want the 50/50 split. They want the colonists to procreate. What they wouldn't want is for the colonists to only have single partners, as that needlessly limits the genetics. Instead they would want the colonists to have children with different partners.

Back home, however, such a rational, mathematically justified approach would not be received well at all. (Though it might encourage some to be potential colonists.)

Why wouldn't they want the colonists to have single partners? Genetics is not a problem for the first generation as they all are not related, besides it takes about 20 years for children to grow to adulthood. NASA could always expand its capacity and send up more people in the meantime.</font>[/QUOTE]That is bad long-term thinking. They want the colony to be self-supporting as quickly as possible. They are also in the midst of a nasty cold war that could go hot at any point (and almost did a few times in reality), at which point the colonists would be stranded indefinitely (possibly forever). Therefore, you have to plan for the possibility that each mission will be the last.

Also, once the cold war ends, (again assuming close parallels to reality), the space program takes a massive hit. People just don't care about space anymore, since we don't have to "beat the Russians" to it, so NASA's funding will plummet anyway. Political and economic expediency will require a self-sufficient colony.

Also, unless there is some other overriding concern NASA would NOT expand its capacity. It just won't be politically feasible.

Besides wife swapping creates poor relations, some of the colonists might not agree to it, I sure would want someone having an affair with my wife.

There are no "wives" or "husbands". As I already stated previously, your having a wife automatically disqualifies you from the mission.

No, this is likely not a long-term viable situation, but it is a short term (50 years or so) necessity to increase the population. Once the population starts to hit the magic number (ISTR 500?), then you can start encouraging more "desirable" behavior.

Finally, don't forget that once the colony gets to a self-sufficiency point, and with general indifference and hostility at home, the colony should be expected to break free from mother Earth fairly quickly. Which provides for more conflict and intrigue.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Perhaps all that atmosphere comes from all the oxygen left over from Venus's missing oceans. Venus's oceans boiled away when the Sun got too hot, the water vapor got in the upper atmosphere where the Sun disassociated the water molecules and the hydrogen escaped into space leaving behind the heavier oxygen.

Correct up to here...

The oxygen oxidized the carbon on the surface as Venus overtuned its crust and exposed more carbon to be oxidized. Eventually all the free oxygen was gone and we now have an ocean of carbon dioxide.

Ocean? No, there's an atmosphere full of CO2.

The pressure at the bottom of thisz atmosphere are similar to the pressure of the ocean a mile or so below sea level.

It's about 93 bars, roughly equivalent to the pressure 930m below the surface of the earth's oceans.

So you just described how Venus got its current CO2 atmosphere. What does this have to do with your scenario?

Since oxygen is what gives water most of its weight, this makes sense.

What does this have to do with anything? (and why did you even say it??)

 

[mike wightman]

Can carbon dioxide even exist as a liquid?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Can carbon dioxide even exist as a liquid?

Yep, but not naturally in conditions here on Earth.

Liquid CO2 is stable in a temperature range of 217 - 304K, and pressures from 5.2 - 73 atmospheres. Otherwise it just sublimes straight from solid to gas (as it does on earth).

 

[mike wightman]

So it does, thanks Mal.

I just googled its properties, triple point of -56.6°C/5.11 atm.

So Tom's idea of a CO2 ocean may work.

Hard luck for the astronauts who will all die on arrival though

 

[Malenfant]

Not too likely on a Venus in Earth orbit though - it'd need an atmosphere that is at least 5.2 atmospheres pressure, which means a high greenhouse effect, which means that the temperatures wouldn't be low enough anywhere on the surface for liquid CO2 to be stable - it'd all be gaseous. Which means it'd be in the atmosphere, increasing the GFX more, and you have a roasted planet.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Scuse me Tom, just a quick slight derailment, no offense.

Mal--

several questions here:

1. Whats the likelihood of a gas giant 'moon' like Venus?

2. And, if it's possible/ or probable, what size Gas Giant would it be?

3. Would this be an inner system GG or outer system GG?

4. What if the GG were in the habitable zone for the star in question?

Thanks.

 

[TKalbfus]

daryen said,

That is bad long-term thinking. They want the colony to be self-supporting as quickly as possible. They are also in the midst of a nasty cold war that could go hot at any point (and almost did a few times in reality), at which point the colonists would be stranded indefinitely (possibly forever). Therefore, you have to plan for the possibility that each mission will be the last.

ok, you have astronauts Tom, Dick, and Harry, and 3 potential mates Mary, Sally, and Jill.
Tom and Jill get married and have 5 children over a 5 year period.
Dick and Mary get married and have 5 children over a 5 year period.
Harry and Sally get married and have 5 children over a 5 year period.
By the year 1974, the population of the colony is now 21.
20 years pass and its now 1994.
Tom and Jill's children each have two potential mates that aren't genetically related to them, the same with Dick and Mary's children and the same with Harry and Sallie's. There are 7 married couple's in the next generation with one odd child out assuming a roughly even split between men and women. NASA sends up one capsule with 3 additional colonists onboard so that each child now has a mate. NASA has to retain the capacity to send things to Venus, otherwise the colony will revert to primitivism, no electricity will be generate and NASA won't get any further pictures of Venusian wildlife.
So the population as of 1994 is now 24. AS of 1994, NASA could send up frozen egg cells to increase the genetic variety.

Now lets rerun this scenarios with perfidious bed hoppers and sluts.
Tom gets in bed with Mary, then Sallie, then Jill. While Mary gets in bed with Tom, then Dick, then Harry they all switch parners every single night. Now mary doesn't like Harry, but its her turn to go mate with him so Harry rapes her. Tom gets upset with this and so he takes a gun and kills Harry. Harry was the engineer.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Yep: Complete thesis.

[starts reading]

University of...? NOOOOOO! You're one of THEM!

[brushes dust from BSc from University of York, pins on white rose, and prepares to re-fight War of the Roses...]

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Now lets rerun this scenarios with perfidious bed hoppers and sluts.

Whoa! I guess I pushed someone's hot button here.

I would point out that there is pretty much an equal chance there would be some infidelity even with marriage (one of those three marriages you mention are almost guaranteed to fail), so your comparison is ridiculous, but you wouldn't understand.

Never mind.

 

[daryen]

Malenfant,

Thanks again for the answers. I really do appreciate your willingness to help try and keep the astronomy in Traveller at least within shouting distance of reality.

 

[TKalbfus]

Here is my first creature entry.

Temperate Forest
Encounter #1
Prawn
Medium (200 kg) Herbivore Grazer
Stamina Dice: 4d4+4 (14 St))
Lifeblood: 13
Initiative: +2
To Attack: 7
To Flee: 8
Speed: 14m
Armor Class: 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural)
Armor Rating: 1
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d4+1); or gore +2 melee 1d6+1; or tail lash +2 melee1d6+1.
Space/Reach: (example 1.5m/2m)
Special Abilities: Mobility, scent
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +8, Listen +5, Move Silently +8, Spot +5, Jump +5, Swim +5
Feats: Dodge, Run
Environment: Any forest, plains, and hills
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-14)
This creature has a long whip like tail, two massive hind legs, smaller fore legs. The legs end in catlike paws with retractable claws. The body of this creature is covered with brown feathers and it has a curved beak designed to chewing vegetation. 4 horns project from its forehead.
Prawns can move on 4 legs with its tail curled over their backs or the can stand on their hind feet and use their forelegs as arms to grab low hanging branches of trees so their leaves can be munched. A Prawn’s claws can be used defensively when attacked, ot it can head butt its opponent using its 4 pointy horns on its forehead as a gore attack

 

[TKalbfus]

daryen said,

Whoa! I guess I pushed someone's hot button here.

I would point out that there is pretty much an equal chance there would be some infidelity even with marriage (one of those three marriages you mention are almost guaranteed to fail), so your comparison is ridiculous, but you wouldn't understand.

Never mind.

'Free love' does nothing to increase genetic diversity. and sharing of mates is a tricky business, sure to spark all sorts of jealousies and rivalrys over time. If you have a social convention that you don't touch your neighbor's wife, that you reduce alot of the potential conflicts that may occur between people who have guns. They need to be armed to protect themselves from potentially harmful wildlife and for hunting. It just doesn't seem to me to be a realistic relationship to have men and women hopping in each other's beds and changing partners all the time for the rest of their lives. Women for one tend to seek committment in their mates, with multiple partners, they don't know who the father is if they get pregnant. Trying to reorder human relationships in the midst of a dangerous wilderness, I think is not a good idea. The whole idea is a teenaged male fantasy, about having casual sex with a bunch of women you don't even know.. It might be fun for a little while, but it gets old quickly. What you need are strong family structures, not "How do you do? Lets have sex!, Goodbye."

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
University of...? NOOOOOO! You're one of THEM!

If it helps, I'm a southerner, not a true Lanky .

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
'Free love' does nothing to increase genetic diversity. and sharing of mates is a tricky business, sure to spark all sorts of jealousies and rivalrys over time.

Just for the record, no where in any of this have I proposed "free love", or orgies, or whatever sexual fantasies you seem to harbor. I have merely pointed out that individuals would be encouraged to procreate with more than one partner. The structure this would be operated under is completely undefined and I haven't bothered to worry about it.

Finally, also for the record, I would like to point out that my suggestion has nothing to do with any of my own fantasies or personal beliefs. (Quite frankly, I would chose to not live in such a situation.) I am merely pointing out a method (and a commonly mentioned one, at that) for trying to gain a sustainable population as quickly as possible.

 

[mike wightman]

Artificial insemination of each of the female astronauts by a different male astronaut for each pregnancy could work.

 

[Whipsnade]

Daryen,

Don't let it get to you, pal. Tom obviously knows as much about genetics as he does about orbital mechanics and the fragility of history.

As other posters pointed out, thanks to artificial insemination genetic diversity could still be arranged in the context of stable 'marriages' or 'partnrships'. In fact, if the mission successfully transports enough samples no men need be included at all.

A 'partnership' could raise one or two 'true' offspring, and then raise 3 or 4 'donor' offspring. The donor material; undoubtedly sperm as harvesting/implanting eggs will most likely be beyond the limited medical capabilities of the mission, can come from other mission members, samples brought along, or both.

However, following Tom's 5 pregnancies in 10 years suggestion would put quite a physical strain on the female members of the mission. They'll be pregnant for nearly half of every two year period and will be caring for children the rest of the time(1). There will be social consequences too. With the female members limited to certain tasks by necessity, the mission could very well see itself rapidly become structured in a 'peasent' mode; i.e. man's work, woman's work, etc.

Hopefully once the population reaches the point where each woman's contribution to society is five pregnancies, the social structure can become more egalitarian.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Why are the women watching the kids? Not because they're somehow better at it, but because they're either pregnant or trying to become pregnant. Both of those activities somewhat preclude the 'busier' aspects of the mission; i.e. exploring places, shooting stuff, etc., etc.