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Venus as the Moon

Encounter #3
Storm
A violent rainstorm occurs here with lightning, thunder, high winds and torrential downpours, it rains so hard at times that visibility drops to a few meters ahead or less. The ground becomes wet and sloppy and prone to flash floods. Some trees will topple over and lightning strikes are sometimes close.

Encounter #4
Tree-clinger
Medium (200 kg) Omnivore Gatherer
Stamina Dice: 4d6+4 (18 St))
Lifeblood: 13
Initiative: +4
To Attack: 5
To Flee: 5
Speed: 28m
Armor Class: 11
Armor Rating: 1
Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d4 and poison)
Space/Reach: 1.5m/2m
Special Abilities: Poison – moderate 1d6 Con damage
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +3, Climb +1, Hide +1, Jump +3, Listen +3, Spot +3, Tumble +3
Feats: Acrobatics, Alertness, Improved Initiative
Environment: Temperate and Tropical Forests
Organization: Single, or pair or Troup 3-8
This furry creature has a triangular shaped head and a long snout full of teeth, a very agile climber, this creature can also trot on all fours when on the ground.
While this creature will eat anything, it also has a tendency to scavenge carcasses and is not very particular about how old the meat is, as a result its bite carries a disease that reduces the victim’s constitution when bitten and fortitude save is not made.
 
(Begins setting up a fortress, with two Army Corps and several Marine Brigades, plus several out-bases including a few airbases and at least one Navy base, to fend off the assaults of those who'll flame me for resurrecting this thread. Once it is complete and fully staffed, I then begin.)

Presuming this happened as Tom said, wouldn't there have been several more missions and a good number of colonization follow-ups? And how about the Soviets and the Chinese (don't forget the Japanese)? Admittedly, this is unrealistic, but when we handwave our way into acceptance, I'd expect not only the U.S., but at least the other nations I mentioned to put colonies on Venus.

So you'd have not only a good sized American contingent, possibly several colonies with one being at most the size of Boston (sommat more than 500,000 people, and on V. being the largest city anywhere), but also good-sized colonies from a number of other places*. There might even be low-grade conflicts here!

*: Mayhap there are several colonies from smaller nations, such as Israel or Palestine or Egypt (for example, but simply for example) as well as from the major nations.
 
Jame, how do you deal with the money? The Apollo program, or something like it could only have been done by 2 or 3 governments in the 1960s: USA, USSR, China (maybe)

HOWEVER, once it had been done, assuming Apollo didn't get abandoned, perhaps the shuttle fleet and the ISS would have come sooner. After all, justifying a space station as a stopping off point for the colonization of Venus would be a much easier sell. Perhaps some of the current NASA thinking about a return to the Moon (based on Apollo ideas!) would have come sooner, maybe in the late 70s, early 80s...

The collapse of the Soviet Union in the 80s would have put a big damper on their Veneran efforts. Perhaps the former USSR outpost was essentially abandoned when the government on Earth could no longer supply it's outpost. Where would those people have fled to? What other outpost would accept them? Conflict in the making.
 
Woo hoo, thread necromancy!

Actually, this is a pretty neat I idea, I'm glad Jame brought it back. I never saw it the first time.

As long as we're accepting that this is feasible (and I will, because it's a neat idea), it seems like it'd be a much more interesting campaign if you didn't set it in the 1960s but before it.

After all, having a moon (or I guess a sister planet) close by that you could watch with telescopes and confirm that there's life on might prove to an impetus to practical space travel much earlier than the 1960s. Space travel wouldn't be just the dream of sci-fi geeks and adventure writers - it'd be a practical consideration of a variety of governments.

Heck, I would think the British Empire (assuming for whatever reason that this Earth has a history is reasonably close to ours) would have looked into the idea of space travel. Before anyone poo-poos on this concept an ironclad space race, if history has taught us one thing, it's that people will find a way if there's sufficient interest. Certainly, the mechanics of getting something into orbit with 1880s technology would be daunting (to say the least - nigh-impossible probably being more realistic), but with the prize hanging so close in the night sky, people would certainly try. And try very hard.

You could have like a Space: 1889 type scenario (British Empire in space). Perhaps certain other technologies would have to mature for a serious shot to Venus - Space: 1920, perhaps (glorious pulp-era fun in space). Space: 1935 (Germany leads the way into space in a new space race as Hitler uses the colonization Venus as a plank for his industrial programs). Or a scenario dear to my heart, Space: 1948 (Germany, realizing they're going to lose the war send off a rocket to Venus. Nobody knows if it successfully landed or not - chances for success seem pretty slim. But the nobody in the Allied powers are ever going to rest easy until they know for sure. After Japan's surrender, the Allies start rooting through Germany's V-8 rocket project).
 
Gents,

Handwaving away all the known problems; length of day, the aVenus* effect on Earth life's evolution, tidal effects, etc., a colonial effort with 1960s technology is going to be extremely, if not impossibly, hard.

First - Barring the use of NERVA-type engines any trip to the aVenus surface is a one-way trip. You need a Saturn V to get off Earth and a LEM to leave Luna, but the LEM is not going get the job done on aVenus. You're not going to land on aVenus with anything that can then return to orbit around aVenus. Anyone landing is going to be stuck for quite a while.

Second - There is nothing to say that life on aVenus will be compatible with Earth life. Anyone landing cannot count on indigenous food crops or animals. Raising Earth crops for food on aVenus is not a given either. If life on both worlds is compatible you have another problem; The more things there are in a biosphere for you to eat, there more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

I see any colonization effort progressing through three basic stages.

1 - Sending probes and landers.
2 - Seeding the selected landing zones.
3 - Marooning the colonists.

Probes and landers will be used first. Think of the early Lunar surveyors and the Mariner probes. We'll see orbiters mapping followed by probes landing in selected regions. Some 'tele-presence' operations may be undertaken with the activities of landers partially controlled from Earth via relays aboard orbiting probes. The compatibility of life between the two planets can be tested in this phase. Landers can release seeds and even expose small Earth lifeforms (molds, plants, mice?) to the aVenus biosphere.

Once it is reasonbly certain that any colonists can either grow food or (partially) subsist on aVenus life, prospective landing zones will be 'seeded' with both Earth crops and cargo capsules. Probes could release wild grains at an altitude hoping to build up fields of known edible crops. Other plants can be handled the same way. Capsules full of the varied equipment the colony needs can be impacted in the target region. The technology of the time could target ICBMs rather well; within 1 km, so landing cargo containers within a 10km radius circle should be feasible. The few capsules lost can replaced, although that will not be an option for the human-crewed capsules.

Finally, with crops and cargos seeded within a region, colonists would be sent. The earlier missions would be able to move capsuels with larger tonnages to aVenus because the time spent travelling between Earth and aVenus is of little consequence. A month or more spent moving between the worlds will not effect seeds or tools. Human cargos will require a much faster transit time, most likely under one week, so the colonist capsules will be much smaller by comparison perhaps holding only 4 to 5 individuals each. These capsules will be earth landers like the USSR's and not water landers like the USA's. The limited ability to aim when landing will mean that the colonist will NOT touchdown anywhere near oceans, seas, or lakes. It's going to be steppes, pampas, and prairies at first. Touching down even a few miles 'out to sea' will be fatal as there will be no helos and carriers on aVenus.

Cost will be a big concern. Assuming the 1960s, I only see the USSR and USA undertaking this effort. The PRC doesn't yet have the technology, which is developed from ICBMs remember. Ditto any European power as the ESA and the launch facilty in Guyana is still a pipedream. The US may invite the British Commonwealth to participate, the UK is not a full member of the Common Market yet and has much looser ties to Europe than it does now.

I can see one of the powers, the USSR especically, jumping the gun with regards to sending colonists. The Soviets threshold for disaster is much lower, Gagarin had a 50/50 chance and the USSR's first 3-man launch was achieved by stripping a Voshod(sp) bare, installing a bench, and cramming in 3 man without spacesuits. Landing and abandoning to a slow death 2 or 3 men on aVenus simply to claim 'First' is certainly within the Soviet's abilities.

Still, limiting oourselves to the technology actually used in the 1960s; i.e no NERVA, no early space stations, colonizing aVenus will be a long, painstaking process even if it is possible. Any colonist will essentially be bidding Earth goodbye forever as the infrastructure needed to launch men into orbit from aVenus' surface will require decades, if not generations, to put in place even with shipments of equipment from Earth.

The psychological implications of such a one-way trip must not be overlooked. Many early colonist in North America and many immigrants to the US turn around and leave after a few months or years. That option is not on the table for the aVenus colonists.


Have fun,
Bill

* - I'm using the term 'aVenus' to denote the Venus-as-Moon body.
 
I like this idea as well and was wondering how close "Venus" could be and it still be plausible.

What of the idea of both planets having civilizations? The influence on each other could be dramatic once telescopes are developed that allow sufficient detail to confirm the presence of a civilization, not just life, on the other world. I wonder when that would be for ground based telescopes. The idea of a 16th century societies watching, but being unable to act on, the going ons on another world is fascinating.

A slight tweak, maybe the closer Venus (I'll call it cVenus) was covered in obscuring clouds and only with the advent of space probes in the 1960s did it become apparaent that cVenus was life bearing. The "clouds" possibly being high abledo freindly aerosols in the upper atmosphere to keep things cool. I like the suddenly discovered aspect since one does not need to think how history would have been different up to 1960 if Venus was know to have life.

The moon programs are suddenly re-vamped to cVenus programs. Maybe as part of a race to "claim" cVenus for democracy/communism and/or convert the natives should they exist. Maybe the natives exist and are just as balkanized as us.

I say let the biota be very compatible, it adds to the two world thing. Also, does it increase tensions on Earth? With a "backup" Earth nearby does MAD not seem so mad afterall?
 
Here is a quote of the first post, I believe it will have all the numbers you requested:
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Venus as the Moon
This is an idea I’ve had, what if the Solar System formed differently with the result of the planet Venus taking the place of our Moon in orbit around Earth and our Moon taking its position in Venus’s orbit? To make it so that Venus doesn’t dominate our skies nor tidally lock itself or the Earth, I’m removing this satellite to an orbital diameter of 1,300,832 km, instead of the Moon’s distance of 384,400 km. This changes the length of a lunar month from 27.322 days to 170.87 days with about 2.14 months per year. I’ve checked this orbit and it seems that the attraction between Venus and Earth is greater than the difference in attraction between the Sun and Venus when it is closest to the Sun in its orbit about Earth and when its farthest away in that same orbit. You want numbers? Ok, the gravitational pull of Earth at 1,300,832 km is 0.000024 g and the difference in gravitational pull of the Sun at the distances of 148,699,168 km and 151,300,832 km is 0.000021 g and this does not take into account the gravitational pull of Venus on Earth, its seems that although this orbit is extreme, it is orbitally possible.

Another consideration is the tides of our new satellite, Our moon exerts a difference of gravitational force between the Earth’s nearside and far side of about 0.00000022 g, replace the Moon at about 384,400 km with Venus at 1,300,832 km and we get a difference of gravitational forces of about 0.00000038 g, in other words the tides would be 173% of what they are now, and high tide would be 173% of what we experience now, this is not too bad and civilization can adjust. As for the length of day, on Earth it remains 24 hours; on Venus I’ll substitute the value obtained by Jean-Dominique Cassini in 1666 of 23 hours and 21 minutes.

Venus appears in our skies as a blue-white disk of the same apparent diameter as our Sun or the Moon, it goes through phases similar to the Moon but it is also seen rotating. A complete cycle of phases takes about a year because a complete revolution of Venus around Earth takes an amount of time equal to half a revolution of the Earth around the Sun. In this altered Earth’s History, the year is not split into months. Instead the date is simply the year plus a number of days, or substituting for months we could use the signs of the Zodiac. When the Sun appears in a certain constellation in our sky that indicates what time of year it is, there are 12 Zodiac constellations and so on this Earth Astrology was more influential in the formation of the calendar than in ours. A ‘sign’ is a period of time roughly equivalent to a month with a variable number of days. So instead of saying its, May 3, 2005, you might say Aquarius 3, 2005 or whatever. The Zodiac sign indicates what time of the year it is, and gives people an idea of what the season is.

The Constellations of the year are as follows: Winter Gemini (31 days), Cancer(28 days, 29 on leap years), Leo (31 days); Spring Virgo(30 days), Libra (31 days), Scorpius (30 days); Summer Sagittarius (31 days), Capricorn (31 days), Aquarius (30 days); Autumn Pisces (31 days), Aries (30 days), Taurus (31 days). Unlike Our calendar, this calendar ends its year in late fall rather than in winter. New Years day comes before Christmas and Traditionally Christmas is celebrated on Gemini 8th, however the Russian Orthadox Church celebrates it on Gemini 25th.

History has preceded much like it did in our universe, the continents are in the same places as are the borders between nations. The fact that the ‘Moon’ is blue, has oceans and an atmosphere with clouds has attracted the imaginations of astronomers and science fiction writers. Some time in the late 1940s a V2 Rocket was launched above the atmosphere and a spectrographic analysis was taken of the “Moon’s” atmosphere and it was confirmed to have an atmosphere much like Earths. Ground based telescopes have confirmed the existence of rivers and vegetation on its surface. Radio communication was attempted with the ‘Moon’, but no response ever came other than a radar echo. The arrangement of continents on Venus are the same as on the real Venus, except that there are oceans filling all regions below the 0 km mean elevation datum. Typically take a map of the real Venus and everything you see that is green or blue is covered with water. Two main continents dominate the planet, those are Ishtar and the equator straddling Aphrodite. A lot of smaller land masses also dot the oceans. In 1957 Sputnik was launched and President Kennedy later announced his decision to land a Man on the Moon before this decade is out, and the Apollo program had begun. The main problem was that while a rocket capable of delivering people to the Moons surface was possible, bringing the astronauts safely back to the Earth was out of the question for chemical rockets such as the Saturn V. The solution was helped by two things, the first was the Moon’s Earthlike environment, and the second was the public fears about astronauts bring back deadly diseases obviously these was life on Venus, whether it was a danger to humans was yet to be determined. The solution was simple, don’t worry about bringing the Astronauts back, send them over and keep them resupplied by further rockets as necessary, eventually the Nerva Nuclear Rocket engine will be developed and will be capable of bringing them back to Earth, but the important thing was to beat the Soviets to the Moon. Surveyor probes were sent, and those that reached its surface sent back pictures of alien plant life although plant life with green leaves and so forth. Rovers tend to get bogged down after a time unless they are in deserts or in high artic regions, weather proves to be a problem for the long term survivability of remote controlled probes.

Apollo 11 is now on the Launch Pad, its 1969 and the huge moonship takes of from the launch pad 39a. There is no Moon lander. Instead there is an enlarged Apollo Capsule with Heat Shields and parachute with additional mass devoted to landing rockets so a touch down on solid ground can be achieved.

Now I ask the audience, how would you design such a mission? Would you have more than 3 astronauts onboard? Since the mission does not call for a return to Earth, the additional mass that would otherwise be used for the return stages can be devoted instead to the landing capsule. What would you bring, keeping it limited to TL 7 of course?
 
There's a game called "Cold Space" available at RPGNow that explores a lot of this sort of thing, though with a Swiss-developed ftl drive. Americans vs. the Soviets in a drive to conquer/colonize local space.
 
Originally posted by Ptah:
...
A slight tweak, maybe the closer Venus (I'll call it cVenus) was covered in obscuring clouds and only with the advent of space probes in the 1960s did it become apparaent that cVenus was life bearing. The "clouds" possibly being high abledo freindly aerosols in the upper atmosphere to keep things cool. I like the suddenly discovered aspect since one does not need to think how history would have been different up to 1960 if Venus was know to have life.
Venus is of similar size to Earth, if it is also of similar distance from the Sun and has a similar rotation rate, its bound to have a similar environment and similar cloud cover as well. Observers from Earth will be able to see inbetween the clouds of Venus and peer at what lies beneath them just as the Apollo Astronauts were able to do looking back at Earth. People will just have gotten used to the fact that cVenus has a changable face, Galileo probably would have noticed the clouds through his telescope and seen the oceans and continents that lie underneath. I think he would have figured out the oceans because of their reflective properties and similar coloration to Earth's oceans. The clouds move about across the planet's face, he would have realized they were clouds. He probably would have spent a great deal of time studying Venus and making sketches of the continents underneath, and given time, he would probably have crafted a globe of Venus as well. How the Church or the Inquisition would have reacted to this I don't know.
 
Originally posted by Laryssa:
Originally posted by Ptah:
[qb]*snip*
How the Church or the Inquisition would have reacted to this I don't know.
They would probably have claimed either that is it Heaven, or that it is Hell, visible up there as, to put it informally, the dangling carrot or brandished stick, respectively, to remind good Christian to stay good Christians.
 
Earth history would definitely not be the same. Remember for thousands of years it was the "unchanging Heavens" the existed over us. The Wanderers (planets) were exceptions, so were comets and Nova/Supernova. Everything was the "dance of the spheres".

If cVenus had the same apparent diameter as the moon, the visible movement of the clouds would never allow the unchanging Heavens idea to develop. Without this idea, science might have advanced faster than "normal"; not in all areas, but perhaps in some ways.
 
I knew I should have been more careful when I said clouds.
Just thinking off the top of my head with respect to things that could obscure observation from afar but not so much with 1960s instruments.

The aerosol reference being to stratospheric material that, if dispersed it may not appear to move or behave as clouds but more an obscuring haze. On can even postulate day/night cycles to the aerosols. Just trying to think of a possible atmospheric phenomena, even if requiring some rather unique atmospheric chemsitry, that keeps sure knowledge of cVenus as life bearing until 1960. Granted spectroscopy, circa 1920, is going to tell you all the ingredients are there, but seeing is beliveing for most. The first cVenus probe sending back images of oceans, and maybe roads, could be Earth shattering.
 
Ptah, Plankowner, and others;

The numbers you're interested in are at the beginning of the thread. Believe me, it's best that you ignore them.

Constantine Thomas, a honest-to-god planetologist, ran the numbers and they aren't pretty. First, the orbiting pair is not stable. It may take 100,000 years or more but something is going to happen. Either Earth or aVenus are going to be 'thrown off' from the pairing. The pairing will last only an eyeblink from an evolutionary-geological standpoint.

Second, there's a very good possibility that Earth and aVenus will be tidally locked with respect to each other. That means 'days' that are hundreds of hours long.

The numbers mean that life will not evolve on the 'paired' Earth in the same manner as it did on the original Earth. Not only will there not be a 'NASA', a 'Florida', or a 'USA', there's a very good chance there won't be humans either.

The Original Poster, exhibiting his usual inability to grasp what other's write, finally was able to (barely) comprehended what Dr. Thomas was trying to tell him about the plausibilty of the setting. The OP then mumbled something about 'nanotechnology'. Like D&D monsters and time travel, 'nano' is one of his usual escape hatches.

Peeking behind this setting's curtain only reveals that it is physically impossible. It's best to take the setting as is and not look too hard at the plausibility angle or the numbers.


Have fun,
Bill
 
What if we moved cVenus to a slightly different orbit? What if it was in a Trojan Point of the Earth? It would be 60-degrees ahead or behind the Earth in the same solar orbit. That would be a stable location. The new Venus would be about 1AU away (if I did the math right in my head), but it would always be in the same location relative to the sun, so it would move really weirdly relative to the rest of the stars and planets.

Once Galileo invented the telescope, he would see the moons of Jupiter moving AND the clouds of cVenus moving. It might not have that much effect on history, but it would be a BIG target in the 19th and 20th century.

Imagine Lowell looking at cVenus and REALLY seeing things move, not the imaginary canals of Mars.

I know this moves the planet away from the Moon replacement, but it might address some of the impossible physics, while still giving us another habitable world within some reach.

Of couse travelling 1 AU is MUCH harder than travelling 400Kkm, but given that the Earth people realize that there is life on that planet, perhaps a Moon Race would still be on.

In this scenario with cVenus at the Earth Trojan point, I think we could still have the moon too. Don't have the Orbital Mechanics books anymore to do the math, but maybe someone else could?
 
Thanks Bill,
Those numbers at the beginning are what prompted me to ask how close. I should have clarified in how close but separate orbit.

While I'll admit the theories of solar system formation, while plausible, could be off; orbital mechanics are pretty much rock solid. No matter how much I like the idea of a binary planet arrangement, Mr. Thomas's work convinced me it wouldn't work. So my use of cVenus thinking a closer non-intersecting orbit might help.

Another idea, which really changes things but keeps the two life-bearing worlds that are close to each other, is the possibility of two earth-like worlds that are moons of a gas giant (probabaly a really big one). But that is another story with its own technical hurdles.
 
Plankowner, I like it. Exactly what I was thinking about with respect to Venus being "closer" somehow.

I wonder if being in a Trojan point makes it easier to get to, in the sense if it is trailing you just keep the space ship in the orbit and cVenus comes to you so to speak. Could this really cut down on the travel time?
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Ptah, Plankowner, and others;

The numbers you're interested in are at the beginning of the thread. Believe me, it's best that you ignore them.

Constantine Thomas, a honest-to-god planetologist, ran the numbers and they aren't pretty. First, the orbiting pair is not stable. It may take 100,000 years or more but something is going to happen. Either Earth or aVenus are going to be 'thrown off' from the pairing. The pairing will last only an eyeblink from an evolutionary-geological standpoint.

Second, there's a very good possibility that Earth and aVenus will be tidally locked with respect to each other. That means 'days' that are hundreds of hours long.

The numbers mean that life will not evolve on the 'paired' Earth in the same manner as it did on the original Earth. Not only will there not be a 'NASA', a 'Florida', or a 'USA', there's a very good chance there won't be humans either.

The Original Poster, exhibiting his usual inability to grasp what other's write, finally was able to (barely) comprehended what Dr. Thomas was trying to tell him about the plausibilty of the setting. The OP then mumbled something about 'nanotechnology'. Like D&D monsters and time travel, 'nano' is one of his usual escape hatches.

Peeking behind this setting's curtain only reveals that it is physically impossible. It's best to take the setting as is and not look too hard at the plausibility angle or the numbers.


Have fun,
Bill
Now that you see my sudden involvement in this subject you've suddenly soured on it, but before you've waxed enthusiastic suggesting a number of ways of getting there...

Gents,

Handwaving away all the known problems; length of day, the aVenus* effect on Earth life's evolution, tidal effects, etc., a colonial effort with 1960s technology is going to be extremely, if not impossibly, hard.

First - Barring the use of NERVA-type engines any trip to the aVenus surface is a one-way trip. You need a Saturn V to get off Earth and a LEM to leave Luna, but the LEM is not going get the job done on aVenus. You're not going to land on aVenus with anything that can then return to orbit around aVenus. Anyone landing is going to be stuck for quite a while.

Second - There is nothing to say that life on aVenus will be compatible with Earth life. Anyone landing cannot count on indigenous food crops or animals. Raising Earth crops for food on aVenus is not a given either. If life on both worlds is compatible you have another problem; The more things there are in a biosphere for you to eat, there more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

I see any colonization effort progressing through three basic stages.

1 - Sending probes and landers.
2 - Seeding the selected landing zones.
3 - Marooning the colonists.

Probes and landers will be used first. Think of the early Lunar surveyors and the Mariner probes. We'll see orbiters mapping followed by probes landing in selected regions. Some 'tele-presence' operations may be undertaken with the activities of landers partially controlled from Earth via relays aboard orbiting probes. The compatibility of life between the two planets can be tested in this phase. Landers can release seeds and even expose small Earth lifeforms (molds, plants, mice?) to the aVenus biosphere.
It seems you opinions on these views vary depending on the originator, and when they originator is gone, and you've waited a little while, you feel free to take credit for them.

Reminds me of an old television show, I forget the name but it was on Saturday mornings, in it theres this one person who gets an idea, another person always shoots it down and says he has a better idea, and then he repeats almost exactly whatthe original guy says and everybody comments on what a good idea it was. That is a typical comedy routine that Bill is exercising right now, but Now that I have something to say about this, he is now distancing himself from it. It is all childish foolishness his behavior that is. Now when Bill, are you going to stop playing politics, keeping score, and just worry about the ideas that are being discussed rather than trying to settle personal scores all the time. I have no interest in being your enemy, so why don't you go find yourself another foil.

You see Bill Cameron speaks from emotion and he cloaks it in reason. In other words he is being a hippocrite and is not acting in any consisten fashion depending on the score he has to settle.
 
Originally posted by Laryssa:
You see Bill Cameron speaks from emotion and he cloaks it in reason. In other words he is being a hippocrite and is not acting in any consisten fashion depending on the score he has to settle.
:eek:
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I agree.

WITH BILL CAMERON!

Kind of a shame, though - this idea is interesting, if disregarding the physics and astronomical and historical problems is accomplished.
 
One of the tricks of debate is always finding an expert with 'facts' to support your position. Another expert wrote another book about this very Subject, I think it was called Different Skies or infinite skies. He took a number of case based on the idea of the Earth having evolved differently. One in which the Earth had no moon, one in which the Earth was a part of the alpha centauri system, and discussed all the implications of these what ifs. As for Cameron, I wouldn't take him too seriously, he has an emotional need to disagree with me and to always win his arguments, so he does alot of research to win his arguments. Notice how consistentnly he disagrees with me. Whenever I take one postion, he always has to take the opposing view no matter what the argument is and try to win it. There are many experts on both sides of each issue. Whenever I stake out an issue, he picks out an opposing set of experts to support his knee jerk opposite point of view.
 
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