Vote Your Canon #3: The Gazelle (consensus: yes, but problems noted)

[daryen]

The biggest problem with the Gazelle, in CT anyway, is that it has four turrets on a 300 dton hull. That's basically what makes it broken. For the record, this is outright stated in the CT Consolidated Errata. It should only have three turrets.

Due note that the Fiery is just fine as it is actually 400 dton. I personally always thought the Fiery was the "real" ship. The Gazelle was the original prototype; the Fiery is the result of the lessons learned.

Also, do remember the biggest difference between the Fiery and the Type T: the Fiery is TL 14, while the Type T is TL 10/12. (The Type T is TL 10 by Book 2 rules. A Book 5 equivalent is TL 12.) Plus, they are built for different purposes. The Type T is basically a cop car. The Fiery is a military vehicle. So, as a result, the Fiery should outclass the Type T pretty handily.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The Type T is basically a cop car.

It also makes for a reasonably decent "5 finger discount" pirate ship ...

 

[mike wightman]

The errata is wrong on this one.

The Gazelle was designed using HG79 as a 400t ship. Look at the original JTAS article.

The mistake comes from the change in how drop tanks are incorporated.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is not a single CT Gazelle.

The original JTAS HG'79 ship is presumably about 240 Dt + tanks (=400 Dt) and has two turrets and a 10 Dt bay (reskinned to two barbettes), arguably according to the rules.

The S7 (& S9) HG'80 recreation of the Gazelle is 300 Dt + tanks (=400 Dt) with four turrets, definitely against the rules.

 

[Condottiere]

Out of curiousity, I looked up the current iteration.

Mentions a drop tank mount for for a eighty tonne drop tank, but no drop tank; hull is listed at full four hundred tonnes.

Jump factor five drive indicates that it's a four hundred tonne hull, plus an eighty tonne drop tank.

So four hardpoints are correct.

 

[daryen]

To be clear, my complaints are around the S7, S9, HG80/TCS version. That version is absolutely a 300 dton ship with 100 dton drop tanks. It should only have three turrets. The errata is completely correct. The version in JTAS isn't made with any real rules, so it is what it is. I can't speak to HG79 as I still don't have those rules.

Any other version from any other edition of the game needs to be evaluated based the rules from which they are created. I am not talking about them.

 

[mike wightman]

It clearly states on the TAS form that the Gazelle has a 400t hull.

Back in HG79 days the author obviously thought the drop tanks fell away from the 400t hull, rather than building a 300t hull and adding 100t of drop tanks.

 

[Condottiere]

The thing is, the older editions may or may not have been wrong, but they aren't going to be updated.

 

[daryen]

It clearly states on the TAS form that the Gazelle has a 400t hull.

Back in HG79 days the author obviously thought the drop tanks fell away from the 400t hull, rather than building a 300t hull and adding 100t of drop tanks.

I am not denying any of that. What I (and the Consolidated Errata) am saying is that this is an error. It was considered such an error that later in TCS they specifically include a note expressly stating that the drop tanks are NOT ever to be considered part of the hull. So, whether the design was legal for HG79 is irrelevant to the overall point: the Gazelle was an illegal HG80 design which was indirectly addressed in HG80 and TCS and explicitly addressed in the Consolidated Errata.

I am not saying the JTAS Gazelle was in error at the time it was published. I am saying the Gazelle was in error when published in S7 and S9, and that the JTAS Gazelle was retroactively superseded by the rules updates for HG80 and TCS.

Again, this all only applies to CT. Any other rules set is to be evaluated within its own context.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It clearly states on the TAS form that the Gazelle has a 400t hull.

Back in HG79 days the author obviously thought the drop tanks fell away from the 400t hull, rather than building a 300t hull and adding 100t of drop tanks.

That is not consistent with the interior space of the ship:

CE-44666C2-900600-40400-0        MCr 417         400 Dton    Ag=0
CE-64444C2-900600-40400-0        MCr 417         667 Dton
bearing           2 1                             Crew=14
batteries         2 1                               TL=15
       Cargo=120 Fuel=26,6 EP=26,67 Agility=0 DropT=266,7

Dual Occupancy                                      120       417
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             4            400        
Configuration       Close Structur     4                       24
Scoops              Partial                                     0
Armour              9                  9             15         0
                                                               
Drop Tanks          267 Dton                                    0
Total tonnage       667 Dton                                    
                                                               
Jump Drive                             4    1        33       133
Manoeuvre D                            4    1        80        48
Power Plant                            4    1        27       107
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4        27        
                                                               
Bridge                                      1        20         2
Computer            m/3fib             C    1         6        27
                                                               
Staterooms                                  8        32         4
                                                               
Cargo                                               120        
                                                               
Bay                 Particle, 50 t     4    1        10        12
Triple Turret       Beam               4    2         2         6
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         6    1         8        38
                                                               
Gig                 20 Dton                 1        20        15

With a 400 Dt hull + tanks = 667 Dt it would have 120 Dt space free. It would also need 5 engineers, not 4.

With a 240 Dt hull + tanks = 400 Dt free space is reasonably close:

CE-24666C2-900600-40400-0        MCr 291         240 Dton    Ag=0
CE-44444C2-900600-40400-0        MCr 291         400 Dton
bearing           2 1                             Crew=12
batteries         2 1                               TL=15
               Cargo=26 Fuel=16 EP=16 Agility=0 DropT=160

Dual Occupancy                                     27,0     291,4
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             2          240          
Configuration       Close Structur     4                     14,4
Scoops              Partial                                   0,2
Armour              9                  9           15         0,4
                                                               
Drop Tanks          160 Dton                                  0,2
Total tonnage       400 Dton                                    
                                                               
Jump Drive                             4    1      20        80
Manoeuvre D                            4    1      48        28,8
Power Plant                            4    1      16,0      64,0
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4      16,0        
                                                               
Bridge                                      1      20         1,2
Computer            m/3fib             C    1       6        27
                                                               
Staterooms                                  8      32         4
                                                               
Cargo                                              27,0        
                                                               
Bay                 Particle, 50 t     4    1      10        12,1
Triple Turret       Beam               4    2       2         6
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         6    1       8        38
                                                               
Gig                 20 Dton                 1      20        15,0

 

[mike wightman]

Original Gazelle is 400t, 160t of which is removable drop tanks which actually leaves a 240t ship once tanks removed.

 

[robject]

Back in HG79 days the author obviously thought the drop tanks fell away from the 400t hull, rather than building a 300t hull and adding 100t of drop tanks.

THAT is interesting, and "sort of" makes sense. As if they fitted into a cradle that forced the ship to a certain volume... and yet that's a fundamental misinterpretation of "how jump works", so it was ... a 400t hull... that acted like a smaller hull...

OH. I betcha someone was still kind-of thinking about MASS. A 1977 / HG1 way of thinking. Marc.

Maybe.

Original Gazelle is 400t, 160t of which is removable drop tanks which actually leaves a 240t ship once tanks removed.

I forgot the volume of those drop tanks. 2 x 80t?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Original Gazelle is 400t, 160t of which is removable drop tanks which actually leaves a 240t ship once tanks removed.

I am not at all convinced. You are basing your argument on the TAS form, that rates the ship in LBB2 terms. It also specifies a m/3 computer, but the HG'79 USP specifies a m/3fib computer.


HG'79, p32, ¶3:

L-Hyd Tanks: Disposable fuel tanks which are fitted outside the ship, ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I forgot the volume of those drop tanks. 2 x 80t?

Not specified, but that would fit the stated performance.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I forgot the volume of those drop tanks. 2 x 80t?

160 tons is what you need for Jump-4 in a 400 ton displacement starship.

However, since the Gazelle is supposed to be J5(2) 5G without tanks and J4 4G with tanks, and there is sufficient internal fuel for both conditions, you wind up with a situation where a 300 ton Gazelle @ J2 needs 60 tons of jump fuel (clean) or @ J5 needs 150 tons of jump fuel (tanks dropped) ... while a 400 ton Gazelle @ J4 needs 160 tons of jump fuel (tanks retained).

LBB S7 and LLB S9 both agree on 81 tons of internal fuel tankage and EP=21 of power plant output. This means 60 tons reserved for jump fuel internally.

So the Gazelle either needs an extra 90 tons of jump fuel (tanks dropped) for J5 or an extra 80 tons of jump fuel (tanks retained) for J4 ... not 100 tons worth of L-Hyd drop tanks. So what's up with that?

Short answer(s): standards and endurance.
Since everything except small craft tend to be rated in tonnages divisible by 100 in CT, the (writer) thinking behind the design process was probably one where 100 ton drop tanks would "be more standardized" and less custom/unique to the class. The side benefit of doing that would be that the extra 10-20 tons of fuel capacity involved would help offset power plant consumption giving the class greater freedom to maneuver between refueling runs and therefore a longer loiter time/uptime on patrols.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

However, since the Gazelle is supposed to be J5(2) 5G without tanks and J4 4G with tanks, and there is sufficient internal fuel for both conditions, you wind up with a situation where a 300 ton Gazelle @ J2 needs 60 tons of jump fuel (clean) or @ J5 needs 150 tons of jump fuel (tanks dropped) ... while a 400 ton Gazelle @ J4 needs 160 tons of jump fuel (tanks retained).

Wrong Gazelle.

The original Gazelle in JTAS#4 was J-4 with the tanks, J-6 dropping the tanks, and J-0 without tanks.

 

[robject]

Wrong Gazelle.

For some reason, this made me laugh.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For some reason, this made me laugh.

Well, it's a rather silly discussion...

But there are many versions of the Gazelle, perhaps the most interesting is the TNE version that chopped off the front and replaced it with a Scout:

 

[robject]

Well, it's a rather silly discussion...

But there are many versions of the Gazelle, perhaps the most interesting is the TNE version that chopped off the front and replaced it with a Scout:

Looks like an add-on module for the scout. "Increase your ship's volume fourfold!"

 

[Condottiere]

Have the Tigresses cull the herd.