rlmercad069
SOC-12
Don't knock 50kg missiles, real world examples, TL8/9, are doing a hell of a job in Ukraine right now.
Vote Your Canon #4: Jump Torpedos (consensus: NOT)
- Thread starter robject
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A hellfire missile is almost exactly 50kg... I doubt if you can build one that can burn at 6g for an hour or more.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I reverse engineered the torpedoes and missiles in the MongoVerse, ye, many moons back.
Not everything makes sense, but half would with reactionary rockets, since there is no minimum volume.
The fly in the ointment is that stated (lowish) technological level doesn't match with stated acceleration.
Not everything makes sense, but half would with reactionary rockets, since there is no minimum volume.
The fly in the ointment is that stated (lowish) technological level doesn't match with stated acceleration.
rlmercad069
SOC-12
TL8/9 vs 10+
I don't mind the concept.
Using it, however, would alter the way the Imperium works in ways we might not expect.
It changes the nature of battle, anything stationary for more than two weeks could suddenly be hit by millions of Zhodani/Imperial nuclear missiles. It would probably bring on a sort of detente.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
That could happen now, just the nuclear missiles would all be in one 100 dT clump and manned. (assuming the target is >100 diameters from anything and you can jump with enough accuracy for nuclear destruction). But
Imprecise jumps
and
Most everything interesting being in <100 diameters of a world (or being a mobile ship).
Means it’s never an issue, whether with 1,000 10 kt micro nuke jump drone missiles or with a 100 dT kamikaze loaded with 1,000 mt of nukes
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Except you would need to scan the system to learn their positions then jump to transmit that data to the jump capable missiles, which would then jump and attack.
So you need a stealthed scout to get the info needed for a targeting solution (there is no stealth in space), you need the target system to not notice the outbound jump with no flight plan authorised, then you need to launch all those really expensive jump torpedoes.
How about instead you construct a 200t ship with a 50t missile bay (perfectly legal to do these days) that jumps into the system disguised as a trader... or a subsidised trader could carry pallet after pallet of the space version of:
The jump missiles turn it up to eleven, the main difference is in volume of fire, millions upon millions of missiles. Sort of like the east front during ww2, by Kursk, each side had sat down to simply creating belts of millions upon millions of landmines one had to fight through. Any advance and sappers would come in during the night and re-lay more mines. Though it is a decent question as to why something like that wasn't done.
Hardly.
You can get XX% more density by carting them into the system, with the XX% however much is saved by not having a jump drive.
Going into a system is not dangerous by any stretch. Getting OUT is potentially dangerous if you go in tanks dry. So don't do that.
Better, send in a recon squadron to map out the targets precisely. They have lots of time to do this.
The arsenal ships then show up, target info beamed to the launchers from the recon squadron, missiles are released, and everyone jumps out.
Arsenal ships are in system less than a few hours. Recon ships are there maybe a day, and they don't even need to be close.
The key point is that it's trivial to arrive into a system well within the window of the ability of the defender to react to ensure the safety of your ships. Space is big.
Just set up a automated factory in a belt, no need for any infrastructure to carry the missiles, barely any need for personnel. I don't see any reason to carry them in. This is the bomber vs missile argument, and years ago a af col said the only real reason for the bombers was that they could be recalled.
Agent of the Imperium has something like this.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
As I visualize jump message torpedoes/missiles, they have a guidance unit, a compact jump drive, a battery of jump capacitors to energize the jump drive, and a message communication unit that can be set to respond to a coded trigger message or simply set to broadcast a "come and get me" message. That is it. I do not include a power plant nor maneuver drive. The capacitors are charged by the launching ship's power plant. The launching ship basically discharges them from the launching tube either using a rocket booster engine or a rail gun launch. This gets them far enough away from the ship to safely engage the jump drive. The torpedo/missile can be reused following the replacement of the jump unit, which is burn out in the process of making the jump.
At this point, it all comes down to cost, right? Cost of the unit, launch costs (how much to replace the burned out drive unit, how much to hunt down and ferry the torps for reuse, etc.).
The real nut it why does there need to be a man in the middle on an XBoat. A XBoat is essentially the same as this torp, it just doesn't have to be overhauled each time, and it's crewed with a pilot. Can we get rid of the pilot? But even looking at that, a pilot in CT is, what, 5000Cr a month? Hardly a blip in the large scope of things.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Cr6000 per month in CT.
The real reason for keeping XBoats manned is reuse vs disposable.
Consider that an XBoat has a Jump-B drive installed in it. The price tag on that drive is MCr20 and it's good for 40 years (with annual overhaul maintenance). That's functionally MCr0.5 per year amortized over the lifetime of the XBoat. If you assume an individual XBoat jumps 25 times per year (to keep the illustration math simple here for the point I'm making), then that jump drive is costing Cr20,000 per jump (not including maintenance costs).
Compare that to a hypothetical disposable Jump Torp.
Under LBB2 rules, the minimum size of jump drive is 10 tons for a Jump-A drive at a cost of MCr10.
Under LBB5 rules, the minimum size for any drive is 1 ton and jump drives cost MCr4 per ton.
That's a LOT of credits to sink into a disposable item ... especially if it's a "one and done" burnout every time kind of situation.
So purely in terms of jump drive cost analysis, you can either pay MCr10 or MCr4 (minimum) per jump in drive purchase cost expenses for a single use unmanned torpedo ... or you can pay Cr20,000 per jump (or less if you jump more than 25 times per year) in the drive purchase cost expenses with a reusable manned XBoat. That's a 200x cost differential minimum per jump, just purely in terms of drive costs exclusively (never mind computer or hull or anything else).
When viewed from that angle, is there really any question as to why XBoats are manned rather than using disposable (non-existent) Jump Torpedoes?
Remember, XBoats are not a "one and done" mission set. They need to keep circulating for as long as the Third Imperium endures. Without the XBoats, you're going to pretty rapidly wind up with a splintering of imperial space into Pocket Empires.
It's kind of like what SpaceX is doing with rocket launch services right now.
One use hardware is EXPENSIVE.
Reusable hardware brings the cost per launch WAY DOWN ... especially if you can get a LOT of reuse before discarding in favor of a new replacement.
Go figure ...
You've explained why a reusable XBoat makes sense over a potential Jump Torpedo, but I haven't seen the argument why they need to be manned.
At 20K per jump, the pilot price of 1500 (6K/4) is 7.5%. That's quite a savings if you can leave them out of it.
I mean, if they have to be manned, they have to be manned. But if you can pull the man out of the loop, then, cha-ching. Profits, profits, profits.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Fine, let's play.
Disposable one use jump drive ... minimum MCr4 for 1 jump (LBB5 rules).
Standard Jump-A drive (LBB2) plus Pilot salary at a 2 jumps per month tempo (to keep the math as simple and unfavorable as possible as possible to reusable in this comparison) ... equates to Cr23,000 per jump.
4,000,000 / 23,000 = 173.9
Looks to me like the pilot is the profitable option.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Your turn.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Mongoose has one shot jump drives.
Cheaper and lighter, but still minimum ten tonnes default.
Cheaper and lighter, but still minimum ten tonnes default.
