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TNE Only: What if there was no Virus

So there would be time to have ordered and received a "pseudo-bio" copy of the Emperor for the Imperial Palace, if Strephon was so inclined.

I pretty much put 'Real Strephon' as a first attempt by the spooks behind IRIS (IMTU). They reprogrammed one of the a robot duplicates who then conviently shows up saying "Hey guys! I'm really alive. I was away doing secret Emperor stuff y'see".

Unfortunatly it didn't work out for them as it appears not many believed the ruse, so they 'cleared house' (RS refuses the test) and found a more tractable candidate - Margaret.

Maybe someone could post a link to his "Wounded Colossus" timeline.

Here on Freelance traveller. Though with WoCo the rebellion is mostly nipped at the bud and never really gets into the major slugfest with the black war.
 
I pretty much put 'Real Strephon' as a first attempt by the spooks behind IRIS (IMTU). They reprogrammed one of the a robot duplicates who then conviently shows up saying "Hey guys! I'm really alive. I was away doing secret Emperor stuff y'see".
IMTU I go with the truth that was published in authorial voice for the OTU.


Hans
 
The real Strephon was originally planned to be a robot, it was fan pressure that eventually lead to the retcon to make the real Strephon really Strephon in Arrival Vengeance.

I will find the source for that and quote it.
 
I was curious about what direction Traveller TNE might have taken if the "Virus" had never happened and the Rebellion played its self out to some logical conclusion (Margaret, Dulinor, Stephrons clone or another wins)

Could TNE have been better off without the virus or was it necessary to destroy everything that way?

It wasn't necessary, but it was a lot more interesting!
 
The real Strephon was originally planned to be a robot, it was fan pressure that eventually lead to the retcon to make the real Strephon really Strephon in Arrival Vengeance.

I will find the source for that and quote it.

As I've stated some times, I guess none of the outcome of the Rebellion was acording to the original plan, and (my guess again) virus was the least planned part.
 
Yup, Virus and the Empress wave were dreamt up to reimage the setting.

Virus to flatten it and introduce more modern sci-fi to the setting, and Empress wave to allow the re-introduction of psionics into the mainstream.
 
The real Strephon was originally planned to be a robot, it was fan pressure that eventually lead to the retcon to make the real Strephon really Strephon in Arrival Vengeance.

I will find the source for that and quote it.

No need, at least as far as I am concerned. I'm well aware of the original plan. But what matters to me is that the original plan was changed.

Now, if the MT writers had put out the original story first and THEN changed it, I would have disapproved. But as it is, my take is that the "real" Strephon is the real Strephon. Always was, always will be (unless Marc Miller retcons it one day, of course ;)).


Hans
 
Real Stephon works for me. But a double is a lot easier to be confused with Real Stephon than a first generation AI robot when killed.

MTU had him visiting Corridor Depot and then diverted to Gushemege (not Vland) on the return trip to determine how deep the conspiracy went. It falls apart from there. That was one of my old point he needed to be far from the action. Looks like others agreed but not Lishun Depot. It was on the slate for closure. No need to visit it.
 
FTFY.

Here's how:
[url=http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/othroads/woco.html]www.freelancetraveller.com/features/othroads/woco.html[/url]


"Strephon announces his existence at Depot/Corridor on 204-1116."
I see Bill bought into my decade of rumblings about Real Stephon being briefly at Depot/Corridor. I appreciate the thought, but I don't agree with the cat and mouse game as he wrote it. Had Deneb, Vland and Antares Domains supported him Lucan would've been through or running to another sector. Margaret would've jumped onboard in a heartbeat. A counter to Lucan's orders would've been fine. Controlling the Vland Domain fleets would've brought it to a head.
 
Map?

The Solomani would have taken the majority of the Rimward systems. Margaret and the Aslan would have been locked in a long term war with them. Giving up her Fornast and Antares she walks away with 2 sectors.

Antares would have declared neutrality. Eventually accepted as a client state of the Julian Protectorate.

Lucan and Dulinor would have locked in long term attrition by this point. Since, Rebellion resources of Dulinor we're questionable at best. I'd suggest Lucan's 7 front war would have done the same. Each slipping into 2 1/2 sector empires at best.

Stephon would have conceded to Vland. Vland would have determined he was the Real Stephon and declared the 4th Imperium, but remained conservative restoring a 4+ sector empire, as Stephon slowly slipped away, Avery becomes Shadow Emperor.

Daibei becomes a pocket empire at best. Perhaps a bridge between Margaret and the Aslan.

K'Kree would have never attacked no reason too. Humanities/meat eaters are killing themselves.

Vargr's invasion would run its course and collapse vs Vland.

Without Avery, Norris would have consolidated, given up the 5 sisters to Sword Worlds which would also take the Border Worlds. However, he would have tried to take back Glisten and maintain Deneb.

Zhodani would have looked to greener pastures like rimward sectors or weak Vargr states, if the Empress wave didn't give them a nervous breakdown.

1248. With no RC, Hivers attempt to establish trade treaties starting with Margaret's Domain.
I was wondering if there is a link somewhere with a map of the 20 or so parsecs each faction would control?
 
Wounded Colossus

Is Bill (Whipsnade) around?

Maybe someone could post a link to his "Wounded Colossus" timeline.
www.freelancetraveller.com/features/othroads/woco.html

(Dammit, I really find that autoellipsizing of long URLs annoying.)
http : / / www . freelancetraveller . com / features / othroads / woco.html
The more I consider this the more it makes (plausible) sense to me.
I truly like the way the author lays it out by sections/areas of war and then how a GM could deal with each (in the name of Strephon).
With the Emperor secretly away and being introduced to the Cymbeline chip sentient beings he has the perfect excuse for not being in court when his double and family is assassinated.
Also this gives his ruler ship the authority to turn his enemies either against each other or turn them back to his cause and join him in reuniting the Imperium.
Then he describes how each faction should/could be dealt with.
All Nobles in Ilelish who were active rebels could be stripped of their titles and these then given to new Nobles who will support his new program of reforms.
The Aslan can be used to fight the Vargars and a new DMZ created between the Imperium and the Vargars after they are defeated and /Or Brzk can be used to deal with the Vargar and they and the Aslan can be coopted into the Imperium and Nobles among them created and their citizens made part of the new Citizen assemblies or Civilian Moot.
The Solomani will take years (or a decade) to push back physically to the prewar boundaries.
New citizen assemblies (or Civ. Moot's) created to add another level of oversight over the parts of the Imperium where they live and their Nobles is another good idea. This gives the citizens of the Imperium some more power to oversee the bureaucracy of the Imperium and help it run more efficiently and act as a check and balance to it and the Nobles (and the efficiency reports on the Nobles will help weed out the ineffective, self-serving or irresponsible Nobles and persuade others to work harder at serving the people through Noble Oblige).
 
I appreciate the thought, but I don't agree with the cat and mouse game as he wrote it. Had Deneb, Vland and Antares Domains supported him Lucan would've been through or running to another sector. Margaret would've jumped onboard in a heartbeat. A counter to Lucan's orders would've been fine. Controlling the Vland Domain fleets would've brought it to a head.

While I liked the original WoCo outline, I always had an issue that the timeline assumed the Imperium would eventually regain its prewar boundaries and reasonably quickly at that. It smacks too much of "return to the status quo." If that's people's implict dream, then it works, but at that point I don't really think there's a Wounded Colossus at all, actually.

It's more like "The Colossus Stumbles A Little."

The Rebellion would honestly end really soon if Strephon announces himself in 1116. I doubt it'd even be remembered as a Rebellion, more like "Dulinor's Putsch." GDW (and a lot of players) I think consistently don't take into account the changes into people's thinking that news taking months to get to them from Capital would do to the thinking of nobles in an Imperium that has stood for 1,000 years. There'd be a tremendous amount of "wait and see."

None of the internal factions, save Dulinor's and Lucan's factions would have ever arisen in a formal manner if he announces himself in 1116. The later factions arose from the stress of the civil war. In 1116 and much of 1117 a lot of these potential factions are still in shock and probably have a "wait and see" attitude. Strephon announces himself (or there are rumors of it) and these meta-factions are going to send out a lot of agents to see if they cannot verify them. If one of the major core factions (Vland, Margaret, Craig, Antares) declares for Strephon, it's likely all of them be receptive; convincing one of the factions (likely Vland) to support him will be Strephon's biggest hurdle, perhaps requiring concessions of Imperial authority - they'll know he needs their support and will want something in return.

Once Strephon has one of the meta-factions behind him, Lucan's powerbase is likely to crumble and quickly. While the nobles who support Lucan are going to be more concerned about their positions than their lives, a lot of the Imperial military who supported Lucan are likely commoners or upjumped commoners (those who went from commoner -> noble in their lifetimes). People like that are likely to see if they "help" take Lucan down, they might get away with their lives and perhaps even a "quiet retirement to the frontier" instead of imprisonment or execution. A side note is Strephon might not reveal the whole assassination of Varian to the public; he doesn't need to and it might even hurt his cause - that he is the Emperor should be enough. If Strephon keeps the murder a secret, he can use it to get Lucan to step down: "Step down from the Throne, claiming that you held it as nobody else would. Now that the real Emperor is alive, you can abdicate gracefully. In return, you'll live a quiet life on Capital, and provided you remain quiet, nobody will ever know about what you did to Varian, your own brother."

Given all that, I suspect that Dulinor would have fallen pretty quickly. Dulinor's assassination plot really didn't have a backup plan. Once the Ileish fleet is defeated, Dulinor might have even accepted surrender and execution (especially if the deal was that Isis would be allowed to keep some titles) claiming he was surrendering to preserve the lives of his people who would otherwise be "spent in a pointless war for them."

I've always found the behavior of the Solomani in the Rebellion to be a little odd and their actions in the realm of the unreasonable. The organization of the Solomani has always been suggested to be monolithic yet because of this bureaucratic and sort of slow to act. While hotheads in the Solomani Confed would want the kind of war that is described in the Rebellion, I'd actually think the Solomani would have held off.

While the assassination of the Emperor is interesting I think the Solomani, like many parts of the Imperium would have adopted a "wait and see" attitude. Trinoc doesn't want jump the gun on an war, and being the head of SolSec, he can pretty effectively silence opposition. The cost of starting a war (that the Solomani are well-aware they can't win against a united Imperium) is too great if the whole "Dulinor thing" turns out to be a burp, or not even a burp, just an "uncomfortable-momentary-shifting-in-the-seat of an Imperium of a Thousand Years."

I think the Solomani would wait to invade: 1) When the border fleets are withdrawn from the Solomani front and these fleet can be reasonably confirmed to have been destroyed in combat and civil war conditions have degraded to the point where it no longer seems likely that the Imperium will be able to sustain a war against the Solomani; this would probably be around 1118 possibly 1119. 2) When more solid factions appear in the Imperium than just "the guy on the Iridium Throne" versus Dulinor (Norris doesn't count for this). If Strephon announces himself, the Solomani see there's two "guys on the Iridium Throne" and are likely to wait to see how that turns out. If Lucan gets deposed "quickly" (keeping in mind the communication lags for jump couriers), they're likely to do nothing.

Now, perhaps to appease hotheads, Trinoc would likely allow a certain number of Solomani units selected from certain areas to invade Terra. If things go well, they'll be the vanguard of the Solomani liberation. If things go badly, Trinoc can abandon them, claiming that "due to the Confederation's structure, there's always a risk that certain local polities will be overcome by passion and act on their own" - the actions would justify further increases in power for SolSec. The victorious Strephon and the Solomani would know what's up, however, they'd maintain the political fiction to avoid fighting an expensive war.

For that matter, the fact the Aslan ihatei never seemed to be a problem for the Imperium before the Assassination shows the Aslan have a tighter grip on these guys than might be apparent. Again, while the death of their ambassador would be a pretty dire thing, I think the Aslan would adopt a "wait and see" attitude. By 1117 you might see some ihatei, but once Strephon consolidates power that's going to pretty much solve itself.

Similarly, Vargr are going to be a thorn in the Imperium's side since there's no one faction of Vargr to deal with. However, once the Imperium starts whipping some of the more powerful Vargr pirate fleets / navies, the Vargr are going to start demonstrating some emergent behavior and skulk back across the border before the same happens to them.
 
While I liked the original WoCo outline, I always had an issue that the timeline assumed the Imperium would eventually regain its prewar boundaries and reasonably quickly at that. It smacks too much of "return to the status quo." If that's people's implict dream, then it works, but at that point I don't really think there's a Wounded Colossus at all, actually.

It's more like "The Colossus Stumbles A Little."

The Rebellion would honestly end really soon if Strephon announces himself in 1116. I doubt it'd even be remembered as a Rebellion, more like "Dulinor's Putsch." GDW (and a lot of players) I think consistently don't take into account the changes into people's thinking that news taking months to get to them from Capital would do to the thinking of nobles in an Imperium that has stood for 1,000 years. There'd be a tremendous amount of "wait and see."

None of the internal factions, save Dulinor's and Lucan's factions would have ever arisen in a formal manner if he announces himself in 1116. The later factions arose from the stress of the civil war. In 1116 and much of 1117 a lot of these potential factions are still in shock and probably have a "wait and see" attitude. Strephon announces himself (or there are rumors of it) and these meta-factions are going to send out a lot of agents to see if they cannot verify them. If one of the major core factions (Vland, Margaret, Craig, Antares) declares for Strephon, it's likely all of them be receptive; convincing one of the factions (likely Vland) to support him will be Strephon's biggest hurdle, perhaps requiring concessions of Imperial authority - they'll know he needs their support and will want something in return.

Once Strephon has one of the meta-factions behind him, Lucan's powerbase is likely to crumble and quickly. ...

Exactly, for me I needed Stephon to justify MTU, a decade ago. I send him home in 1116 before the assassination, but he does not make it. I give everyone room for doubt. And Lucan has a dead body, not a robot, "Look our EMPEROR is Murdered in a Haneous attack by the traitor, Dulinor the mad."

Suddenly, Stephon does not know who to trust, but thinks "ok" I lost my double. An attack on his squadron, as he returns to Core, diverts him. His big mistake. Not returning to Vland or Depot/ Corridor and announcing he is alive. He separates himself in his retreat.

Clearly, heads must roll. Lucan claims several people we're very loyal. Most likely the Old Expanse Fleet is in his pocket. Lishun and Corridor Fleets are cannon foder for the battle. Lucan has a divide and conquer approach.

Had Lucan had 4+ sector fleets against Dulinor's 1-2 fleets, he still would have had a swift victory, but Corridor and Lishun do not show up in numbers. They trickle too slow with what they send making Lucan over confident.

This argument worked well for 1248 developments (the Ghost Fleet was born), but I didn't incorporate that into MTU either because i didn't agree with the supervirus premise instead it became the rebirth of Depot Corridor and Vland Fleets. Even if Dulinor had a third depot he could not have fielded enough ships against hardened battle units of 3 frontier sector fleets and the Core Fleet. There is one other problem with the timeline. Arrival Vengeance missed the mark.


Also, we have Dulinor and Isis Moot Polls for anyone interested in "in character discussion".
 
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From Survival Margin, Dulinor's Coronation Fleet should be more than enough to defeat Lucan at Capital. From the tone of Rebellion SB and Survival Margin, Lucan probably wouldn't have entrenched too many defenses since that would have been suggested by 'defeatist' admirals he had executed and is dealing with hostilities in every direction, including a K'kree task force. Invasion is always easier than occupation, though, and difficult to see Dulinor being accepted after a Rebellion so long. Imperial Palace is probably destroyed or at least heavily damaged in the fighting and after some of his staged photo ops, possibly sets up a rump state that won't/can't last too long.

I would like the idea of Vland and Real Strephon merging probably with chunks of Lucan's Imperium. Deneb is a natural to reintegrate with the rest if/when a stable Corridor can be reconnected along with chunks of Antares. It probably claims at least initially to remain the Third Imperium. Avery would still go on his Core Expedition but still have Caranda to be Regent / Emperor depending on the political situation, even if it's more of an analogy to a Holy Roman Empire with component pieces that are more independent. They have a leg up on the other former Imperial factions due to Jump Start.

Ilelish could be a wild card. Ironically enough, it would politically resemble the Regency after the representative reforms (which don't happen in Deneb without Virus). If / when Dulinor is gone (likely assassinated though perhaps he retires and/or otherwise expires after his failure), it could be another non aligned sector sized territory... most likely to join Masilia and/or Daibei, though probably not the Imperium or Solomani Confederation. Zarushagar and the other battleground sectors likely remain no-mans land with a series of non aligned minor territories.

Solomani should be able to entrench and consolidate over most of Old Expanses and Solomani Rim. Hard to see the Vegans holding out indefinitely as the Solomani should eventually be able to concentrate enough off of it once they give up the idea of expanding all the way to Sylea. That is probably one of the last offensives. Daibei and Masilia can merge to make it too expensive to take, though after so much warfare. Could see a cease fire putting these as non-aligned territories to prevent their reaquisition by the Imperium. I think it's really unlikely the interior of the Confederation was effected by the Hard Times. They also have native industry progression which should give them the advantage over the decimated Imperium even with Jumpstart. Depending on the nature of any official peace, Transtar could be very influential in the Rimward sectors of the Imperium.

Aslan & Vargr are probably deflected from Deneb and funneled towards the non aligned territories though the latter with Julians would take at least some of the coreward portions of Antares. Solomani would fortify towards the Aslan but probably not push it as hard as they would against the Vegans.

The Empress Wave is still coming... so the Zhos are still going to fall apart.
 
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From Survival Margin, Dulinor's Coronation Fleet should be more than enough to defeat Lucan at Capital. From the tone of Rebellion SB and Survival Margin, Lucan probably wouldn't have entrenched too many defenses ..., including a K'kree task force. Invasion is always easier than occupation,...
I would like the idea of Vland and Real Strephon merging probably with chunks of Lucan's Imperium. Deneb is a natural to reintegrate with the rest if/when a stable Corridor can be reconnected along with chunks of Antares. It probably claims at least initially to remain the Third Imperium. Avery would still go on his Core Expedition but still have Caranda to be Regent / Emperor depending on the political situation, even if it's more of an analogy to a Holy Roman Empire with component pieces that are more independent. They have a leg up on the other former Imperial factions due to Jump Start.
Yeah. Vland and Real Stephon as enemies makes little sense. After Avery, in his last days to save his people, the Emperor, might be very flexible with Vland. They didn't start it, they tried not to fight it. Avery in the Domain/Regency never makes much sense to me. I like Norris passing away eventually without a solid successor (killed) and being replaced by a corrupt democracy. But I'd never break it up. All the fighting should have made them very cohesive.

Dulinor's Coronation Fleet: Dulinor returns to Illelish to embark on war with his 3 Depots. He will certainly have under the breath criticism for not having the DCF ready to go before Lucan can muster anything. In a failed jerk he responds years later with DCF. Operating star fleets is not an easy task. He's burned through captains and admirals. Now the great fleet DCF is managed by kids like (the Hitler Youth to make a weak comparison). They get crushed. But it costs Lucan everything to do it.
Deneb would be fighting Vargr, Aslan, and the fledgling Sword Worlds. Corridor is cut off and Vland would not want them. For me Vland and Deneb are a centuries old economic rivalry not partnership. Hence, the conflicts in Corridor sector.

The K'Kree task force is another joke in my mind. The author threw out the beauty of what being K'Kree really is. IMTU it never makes it to Capital.


Ilelish could be a wild card. Ironically enough, it would politically resemble the Regency after the representative reforms (which don't happen in Deneb without Virus). If / when Dulinor is gone (likely assassinated though perhaps he retires and/or otherwise expires after his failure), it could be another non aligned sector sized territory... most likely to join Masilia and/or Daibei, though probably not the Imperium or Solomani Confederation. Zarushagar and the other battleground sectors likely remain no-mans land with a series of non aligned minor territories.
Dulinor has to get himself killed. We agree on that, but I think in Battle after his wife is killed (demoralizing him). Isis would lead, but i think of something different. The democratic reforms should have hit Illelish much like the Queen of Britiania with a PM doing the dirty work. Or perhaps the warrior queen is a bit more appropriate. Dulinor needs to keep his Domain to succeed in anything. He needs Daibei as an ally not enemy.

Solomani should be able to entrench and consolidate over most of Old Expanses and Solomani Rim. Hard to see the Vegans holding out indefinitely as the Solomani should eventually be able to concentrate enough off of it once they give up the idea of expanding all the way to Sylea. That is probably one of the last offensives. Daibei and Masilia can merge to make it too expensive to take, though after so much warfare. Could see a cease fire putting these as non-aligned territories to prevent their reaquisition by the Imperium. I think it's really unlikely the interior of the Confederation was effected by the Hard Times. They also have native industry progression which should give them the advantage over the decimated Imperium even with Jumpstart. Depending on the nature of any official peace, Transtar could be very influential in the Rimward sectors of the Imperium.
Old Expanse should become a warground between Margaret and the Solomani. The helping Antares references should be a ruse against Lucan. The Solomani/Aslan conquests will never quiet being the Imperials, like Russian speakers in East Europe today associating with Russia. So this becomes a protectorate at best.

Aslan & Vargr are probably deflected from Deneb and funneled towards the non aligned territories, though the latter with Julians would take at least some of the coreward portions of Antares. Solomani would fortify towards the Aslan, but probably not push it as hard as they would against the Vegans.
Antares needs Vargr friends badly. I think they could cut a deal with the Julians and take over some of the Vargr client states.

The Empress Wave is still coming. So the Zhos are still going to fall apart.
I like the Wave, it could completely destabilize the Zho and pushes them into a fear based isolationist policy.


The nice thing about this is that anyone can come up with multiple scenarios that are plausible and fun to discuss.:D
 
The K'Kree task force is another joke in my mind. The author threw out the beauty of what being K'Kree really is. IMTU it never makes it to Capital.

To me, it's all timing and computer architecture that's different enough to withstand the early wave of infections and suiciders which made their penetration to Capital possible. They pushed... no resistance... keep pushing... no resistance... keep pushing...

But that doesn't mean they necessarily volunteered to go all the way to Capital. Just at some point, Virus got in and finally adapted and made that choice for them.

Dulinor has to get himself killed. We agree on that, but I think in Battle after his wife is killed (demoralizing him). Isis would lead, but i think of something different. The democratic reforms should have hit Illelish much like the Queen of Britiania with a PM doing the dirty work. Or perhaps the warrior queen is a bit more appropriate. Dulinor needs to keep his Domain to succeed in anything. He needs Daibei as an ally not enemy.

Good point. I didn't forget her, but was thinking it would be more than lip service. Constitutional Monarchy is definitely possible.

I could see suicide being possible for Dulinor but also very likely he just gets sick and makes little to no effort to seek medical attention.

The Solomani/Aslan conquests will never quiet being the Imperials, like Russian speakers in East Europe today associating with Russia. So this becomes a protectorate at best.

Not sure that identity was that strong in all quarters in this neck of the woods to begin with and it works both ways for those systems... those that were inside the Solomani Sphere before the Imperial conquest. And even those that DID have the Imperial identity could be fractured along Solomani / Vilani cultural lines, if not resenting the hell out of the Imperium that flew apart after a decade of Rebellion. Certainly by Hard Times a certain cynicism should have been rather widespread...
 
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