What is a Naval Base?

[rancke]

If the CruRon 219, which the naval base on Aramis supports, contains Big Cruisers -- i.e. more than 1,000 tons -- then the Aramis starport has a heretofore unknown, unmentioned, undocumented orbital naval base.

The text says that the naval base includes landing pads, basic repair and damage control facilities, and living and training facilities. (emphasis mine). Nothing that precludes orbital components too.

OK, my guess is that whoever wrote this was thinking of 1000T or even 800T cruisers, possibly few enough in numbers to be accomodated by four landing pads. However, given the changes the OTU has undergone in the years since then, I suggest that any small ship universe implications be quietly ignored.

Even if Mongoose just republished TTA without revising it at all.

EDIT: Incidentally, since Aramis has a Class A starport, doesn't that mean that the starport has a heretofore unknown, unmentioned, undocumented orbital component?


Hans

 

[robject]

I don't think you should take FSotSI at face value.

...

And a comment: If the other two bases are likewise only supporting a CruRon apiece, the fleet stationed in Aramis subsector is severely under the average; it follows that there must be fleets out there with more than the averge number of squadrons. :devil:

That's a topic for another thread.... In fact, the thread from which I decided to start this one. To foment discussion and work out the various positions and preferences.

 

[rancke]

That's a topic for another thread.... In fact, the thread from which I decided to start this one. To foment discussion and work out the various positions and preferences.

Very well.

It just struck me that there's another possibility. There may not be a fleet stationed in Aramis subsector prior to the 5FW. The complete overview of Imperial fleets we have from RbS is post 5FW and we know that there was a fleet reshuffle after the war. Prior to the war at least one fleet (the 100th) was inactive and there was no fleet stationed in Lanth. No fleets are shown on the maps in SMC for Aramis, Mora, Trin's Veil, and Five Sisters. I can't believe that Mora and Trin's Veil wouldn't have a fleet each, so the reason they're not shown could be that they didn't influence the course of the war enough to be mentioned. The same could be true of fleets in Aramis and Five Sisters, but it could also be that these subsectors were covered by neighboring fleets. The the case of the Aramis Trace the 212th in Rhylanor subsector.

This would make the squadrons ane Loul d'Dieu, Aramis, and Natoko the drips and drabs that the 212th could spare rather than the core of an entire fleet. I still think that CruRons ought to be composed of real cruisers, but they need not be full squadrons of heavy cruisers.


Hans

 

[robject]

That's not unreasonable.

In fact I forgot that the whole sub-story in The Traveller Adventure was about the Aramis Naval base taking delivery of...

Two Type J Spinal guns.

They're TL15, and they're extremely effective on small cruisers.

Wanna bet they were for two cruisers in CruRon 219?

So Aramis Naval base probably has an orbital component.

 

[kilmore]

That's not unreasonable.

In fact I forgot that the whole sub-story in The Traveller Adventure was about the Aramis Naval base taking delivery of...

Two Type J Spinal guns.

They're TL15, and they're extremely effective on small cruisers.

Wanna bet they were for two cruisers in CruRon 219?

So Aramis Naval base probably has an orbital component.

Either that or a really long shuttle.

 

[aramis]

No, he's not. Marquis Leonard of Aramis' fief is the City of Leedor, not the world or Aramis. Also, it is his personal fief. It belongs to him because he is Leonard Bolden-Tukera, not because he is Marquis of Aramis. The Emperor could strip him of his title, but not his personal fief; it never was the Emperor's to hand out in the first place. Leonard is a local ruler who has been given a second job as an Imperial noble.


Hans

MAJOR terminology blunder there, Hans.

If it's a fief, it's granted by the emperor (or an archduke), and is Imperial property.
If it's personal property, it's axiomatically NOT a fief.

A fief is, by definition, lands granted by a liege to a vassal. Even in Traveller. See S11:LD N-Z

Fiefs: Patents of nobility, especially for service, may include fiefs of land. Fiefs are granted in a Letter of Enfeoffment separate from the patent of nobility. Fiefs are granted to the individual at the discretion of the Emperor and remain the Emperor's possessions. However, the fief conveys the right to use the land, to rent or lease it out and collect income from it. The fief is a convenient method for the Emperor to reward certain nobles.
(S11, p. 36. Color mine.)​

Personal Fief is a near synonym of demense, as opposed to of see. (A demense is all those lands bound direct to the title, and which are not subinfeudated. A see is all the other lands associated with a given title. The Duke of Regina's See is all of the Regina Subsector; his fief is a chunk of land on Regina itself.)

Plus, it's not correct to the text, in any case.

"The Marquisate is a hereditary position which, on Aramis, has made him ruler of the planet." (TTA, p. 35)
"The Marquis, as head of the feudal technocracy of Aramis, grants a variety of subordinate positions in city government to citizens of Aramis and Leedor in return for money, pledges of loyalty, and other services." (ibid.)

Leedor on Aramis, as a Feudal Technocracy, is essentially an "imperial city"... it's a fief of a major noble. The rest of the world answers to him because he heads the largest city, and he heads the largest city because he's the Marquis whose fief is the city.

 

[far-trader]

Quite aside from the discussion but...

...subinfeudated.

Dang, that's a cool word I don't care if you made it up or not, I like it! I have to find a way to use it!!

 

[samuelvss]

Just curious, but how many of those posting have ever been on a Navy, Army, Air Force, or Marine base on Earth?

In looking through the posts, I do not seem to remember the word "training" mentioned. Most of that is very likely going to be done on a planet.

Lastly, the US Coast Artillery Corps which was responsible for coastal defenses, using both land-based guns and underwater controlled minefields, was disbanded in 1950, leaving it up to the Navy and Air Force. I suspect that would also be the case in the Imperium for the most part. No base defenses beyond security except in exceptional cases.

This comes down to why the Air Force and Navy have bases, and the Army has posts: the training in the U.S. Navy happens mostly aboard. The ships are "based" out of the bases, but really do their stuff under way. When I was in Germany, winning the Cold War, we trained mostly on our post, or on a couple others. The posts contained everything wee needed to subsist and perform our mission, including the dependants. If the dependants are elsewhere, it makes force protection that much more difficult. Now, if the balloon looked as if to go up, we would immediately disperse from the post; hopefully, Noncombattant Evacuation Operations had alrady occurred.

The Air Force actually had bunkers throughout each base, because they planned to fight from there, making it a target to be hardened.

You dependants and R&R facilities are not going to be in armored orbital facilities, but on comfortable worlds, guarded by reliable troops. This guarding is more from the local populace than anything else, so the force protection posture may vary greatly, but ultimately there wil have to be imperial force to guard your dependants or no one will be fully commited to their job elsewhere.

As to IN ships under 1,000 tons, fleet couriers and escorts come to mind; depnding on how you see it, patrol cruisers also.

The bases which serve a numbered fleet will, IMTU, be on large, advanced, comfortable worlds. This is where the dependants will mostly be. Other bases are more towards the pointy end, with fewer permanent party folks.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Leedor on Aramis, as a Feudal Technocracy, is essentially an "imperial city"... it's a fief of a major noble. The rest of the world answers to him because he heads the largest city, and he heads the largest city because he's the Marquis whose fief is the city.

So, in this case, a feudal technocracy is a government run as a noble's feifdom, with the noble handing out government positions the way an old-fashioned English noble would hand out mills and villages, with an expectation that the recipient would swear personal loyalty to him, manage the award well, perhaps pay periodic fees for the privilege, and so forth. A kind of hereditary despotism where the despot is emplaced and empowered by the Emperor.

Thomas Nast would be shocked and appalled.:devil:

 

[aramis]

Quite aside from the discussion but...



Dang, that's a cool word I don't care if you made it up or not, I like it! I have to find a way to use it!!

I didn't make it up. It's standard nomenclature. And there's only one level of subinfeudation in Traveller - knights granted fiefs by Archdukes.

 

[Cryton]

Just curious, but how many of those posting have ever been on a Navy, Army, Air Force, or Marine base on Earth?

In looking through the posts, I do not seem to remember the word "training" mentioned. Most of that is very likely going to be done on a planet.

Lastly, the US Coast Artillery Corps which was responsible for coastal defenses, using both land-based guns and underwater controlled minefields, was disbanded in 1950, leaving it up to the Navy and Air Force. I suspect that would also be the case in the Imperium for the most part. No base defenses beyond security except in exceptional cases.

I am ex-Air Force. I worked ATOC 3 in southern Germany, SAC/MAC HQ, and when they combined, AMC HQ. I have been to a lot of bases, and all of them had some training facility's. When the local training couldn't cover the training needed, we got shipped to a training base on a Temporary Duty Assignment till our training was done and then back to our main base.

As for Training bases in Traveller, in MTU, 3I Navy and Marines train in the sectors Depot system, and Scouts at th Scout Waystation closest to their homeworld. Doing it that way saves a lot of stress.

 

[aramis]

So, in this case, a feudal technocracy is a government run as a noble's feifdom, with the noble handing out government positions the way an old-fashioned English noble would hand out mills and villages, with an expectation that the recipient would swear personal loyalty to him, manage the award well, perhaps pay periodic fees for the privilege, and so forth. A kind of hereditary despotism where the despot is emplaced and empowered by the Emperor.

Thomas Nast would be shocked and appalled.:devil:

Marc Miller has stated in several places that the Imperium as a whole is a Feudal Technocracy. Given that there's ONE city on Aramis, and that one city is the majority of the world population, there's little reason why a popular vote would not conjoin the office of planetary ruler with the title and fief of the Marquisate imposed upon it... a popular vote would likely do that just to get the Marquis to declare a holiday...

 

[rancke]

MAJOR terminology blunder there, Hans.

If it's a fief, it's granted by the emperor (or an archduke), and is Imperial property.

If it's personal property, it's axiomatically NOT a fief.

Unless it's a fief granted under another feudal system than the Imperium (which, as described, is actually an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings). A system such as the local government, which just happens to be a feudal technocracy.

Plus, it's not correct to the text, in any case.

"The Marquisate is a hereditary position which, on Aramis, has made him ruler of the planet." (TTA, p. 35)

Just as being Duchess of Mora is a hereditary position that, on Mora, has made Delphine the Matriarch of Mora. The two positions are linked. The Marquis of Aramis is ex officio the ruler of the planet Aramis. Or rather, as in Delphine's case too, the other way around.

"The Marquis, as head of the feudal technocracy of Aramis, grants a variety of subordinate positions in city government to citizens of Aramis and Leedor in return for money, pledges of loyalty, and other services." (ibid.)

The feudal technocracy of Aramis is not part of the Imperial structure. It happens to be linked through two offices held by the same man.

Leedor on Aramis, as a Feudal Technocracy, is essentially an "imperial city"... it's a fief of a major noble. The rest of the world answers to him because he heads the largest city, and he heads the largest city because he's the Marquis whose fief is the city.

As you yourself points out in another post:

There's only one level of subinfeudation in Traveller - knights granted fiefs by Archdukes.

Hence the system under which the Marquis hands out subordinate positions is the local system of government, not the Imperial.

Marc Miller has stated in several places that the Imperium as a whole is a Feudal Technocracy.

(Marc Miller has? Not canon?)

But as described in canon, the Imperium is not a feudal technocracy. It is, as I mentioned before, an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings.

Given that there's ONE city on Aramis, and that one city is the majority of the world population, there's little reason why a popular vote would not conjoin the office of planetary ruler with the title and fief of the Marquisate imposed upon it... a popular vote would likely do that just to get the Marquis to declare a holiday...

Given that the ruler of Aramis is also the owner of the one city on Aramis, and that one city is the majority of the world population, it's probably simple practical politics to make that ruler the high noble of Aramis despite such an arrangement being against Imperial policy.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

Just curious, but how many of those posting have ever been on a Navy, Army, Air Force, or Marine base on Earth?

In looking through the posts, I do not seem to remember the word "training" mentioned. Most of that is very likely going to be done on a planet.

Lastly, the US Coast Artillery Corps which was responsible for coastal defenses, using both land-based guns and underwater controlled minefields, was disbanded in 1950, leaving it up to the Navy and Air Force. I suspect that would also be the case in the Imperium for the most part. No base defenses beyond security except in exceptional cases.

8 years active duty USMC.

I have been stationed on 1 Marine training base, 1 Navy training base, 2 Naval Air Stations (one in the Philippines), 3 Marine Air Stations (one in Japan), and one aircraft carrier.

I have worked at or spent extensive other time on one Marine Base, two Naval Bases, one Naval Air Station, one Air Force Base (as a civilian working for a contractor), and 2 Naval Facilities in foreign countries (one USN in Japan and one Royal Navy in Singapore).

Note that the last two were permanent USN/RN presences in a foreign port... but did not include any extrality territory save the ships themselves.
The Marine Air Station in Japan was jointly-occupied by the USMC (a fighter squadron and two attack squadrons) and the JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force) (a squadron of flying boats and another of land-based patrol aircraft). The USMC side was US territory, but the Japanese side was Japanese territory, with the runway being both.


I have also visited 2 other Air Force Bases, as well as 3 Army bases... and one preserved former Coastal Artillery Fort and the island fortress of Corregidor.


It is that personal experience that taught me that there is NO set standard for the size and facilities of a base, nor for how that base is (or isn't) tied into the local economic structure.

Each base is unique unto itself, and designed to fit the local conditions and mission in and for which it is placed.

 

[aramis]

Given that the ruler of Aramis is also the owner of the one city on Aramis, and that one city is the majority of the world population, it's probably simple practical politics to make that ruler the high noble of Aramis despite such an arrangement being against Imperial policy.


Hans

The Text states it's the other way 'round on Aramis, Hans. Blackletter. So, you're wrong, and until canon changes or you change, you'll STILL be wrong on that one.

He's ruler of the world because he's the Marquis, not the Marquis because he's ruler of the World. The two offices are inextricably linked to the status as a fief of the ruler. (He seemingly can't be the exofficio fiefholder of the whole world - that's an Archduke's privelege. See S11 LDNZ.)

I won't claim that Marc's statements are not canon - nor can I assert them as canon - I can't remember the specific citations. I can state that I've read them, and that others have quoted them before me (causing me to look them up in the first place).

But again, you're ignoring that forest because you can't see it past the tree in front of you. A feudal system only requires ONE level of infeudation to be a feudal system. That the 3I has 2 canonical levels doesn't make it any less a feudal system than the 3 levels technically allowed in 1100's England - Crown, Barons (including Viscounts, Earls and Dukes), Bannerettes, and Knights. And England is still generally considered to have been feudal the 14th century (despite subinfeudation having been outlawed in 1260), and even into the late 15th century, "bastard feudalism" remained.

The Imperium is a feudal system of two levels - One Lord, with all the lands, grants parts out in exchange for loyalty and service. Some of his vassals (Archdukes) are allowed to further grant title and lands.

Which is remarkably like a feudal technocracy as described. And extremely close to "Bastard Feudalism."

 

[rancke]

The Text states it's the other way 'round on Aramis, Hans. Blackletter. So, you're wrong, and until canon changes or you change, you'll STILL be wrong on that one.

He's ruler of the world because he's the Marquis, not the Marquis because he's ruler of the World.

Yes, that's how I would interpret the text too if that was the only piece of canon I had to rely on. I don't mind admitting that this may even be precisely what the writer of the text had in mind when he contemplated the entire structure of the Imperium in detail. But canon has already changed. So it's a question of (re)interpreting the text to mean something not quite what it says but close enough, or to ignore a lot of other canon that has evolved in the 30 years since that was written.

(Also, it's ignoring the inherent logic of the original world building rules too. Aramis' feudal technocracy logically has nothing to do with the structure of the Imperium, feudal or otherwise, since that would make Aramis' government captive -- "answerable to an outside group". So it's not just subsequent canon that argues againmst the obvious interpretation of the text.)

The two offices are inextricably linked to the status as a fief of the ruler. (He seemingly can't be the exofficio fiefholder of the whole world - that's an Archduke's privelege. See S11 LDNZ.)

But again, you're ignoring that forest because you can't see it past the tree in front of you.

I'm ignoring the forest because the preponderance of canon shows that what is called a forest in a couple of places is not really a forest.

A feudal system only requires ONE level of infeudation to be a feudal system.

You misunderstand me. I'm pointing out that as described what Leonard does when appointing subordinates in the city administration would be subinfeudation if he had Leedor in fief from the Emperor.


Hans

 

[robject]

OK, my guess is that whoever wrote [TTA] was thinking of 1000T or even 800T cruisers, possibly few enough in numbers to be accommodated by four landing pads.

I don't know. Even The Traveller Book states that ships larger than 1000T are supported in orbit, and that the downport is for ships up to 1000T.

And then there's the whole meson spine thing. So it's easier to say that that info just was beyond the scope of the adventure...

 

[Carlobrand]

Marc Miller has stated in several places that the Imperium as a whole is a Feudal Technocracy. Given that there's ONE city on Aramis, and that one city is the majority of the world population, there's little reason why a popular vote would not conjoin the office of planetary ruler with the title and fief of the Marquisate imposed upon it... a popular vote would likely do that just to get the Marquis to declare a holiday...

Why would they get a vote? We Americans like voting, but there's not a whole heck of a lot of it going on in the Traveller universe, what with corporate controlled planets where the citizens are employees, oligarchies, captive governments, and dictators both religious and nonreligious. Percentage of sector population where Joe Plumber has some say - even counting the bureaucracies - is pretty low. Seems to me the average Traveller denizen is pretty used to having someone else make their decisions for them. If in this case they live in someone's feif, likely he owns the house they pay rent on, likely the only thing they get to vote on is which of them gets to present their petitions to him if they want to ban pink flamingos on the faux-lawn.

No wonder there are so many adventurers heading to space!:rofl:

 

[McPerth]

Now, there is the possibility that CruRon 219 is a squadron of Patrol Cruisers, or some other ACS which has the mission code of "Cruiser". It's not really what I'd expect, except that Leedor Naval Base has no mention of an orbital port, and the base itself seems pretty tiny to me.

Even if a specific base usually supports only such an squadron (whose ships are into the 800-1000 dton range)...

2. Naval bases can have support for Imperial Fleet squadrons.

And that means the capability to support larger ships, as 200000 dton battleships or even larger tenders (even the Kinunir should be supported by orbital facilities), if IN squadons must be supported in the base.

That's why I firmly believe all IN bases have most of them in orbital complexes, as I bleieve supporting them from plantside (via shuttles) would foresake their usefulness in a crisis.

 

[robject]

I firmly believe all IN bases have most of them in orbital complexes, as I believe supporting them from planetside (via shuttles) would forsake their usefulness in a crisis.

Naval Bases Support Naval Ships

I think I disagree with you, in theory. I believe IN bases do not have to have orbital components. In other words, I believe there are IN bases somewhere which only support small ships.

That's theory. In reality, I think you're probably right -- most IN bases have orbital elements to support Big Ships. For example, Aramis' naval base is a tiny thing dirtside, and yet the fact that it supplies a Big Ship Cruiser Squadron* means it has orbital facilities for them.

Fleets Support Fleets

You're assuming that naval bases play a major role in crises. I suspect some do, but some don't.

But -- you're right that they do play a part during crises (wars). Traveller states that Scout Way Stations function as Naval Bases during wars. SO obviously naval bases have a role during war. The question is what is the nature of that role?

Supply, yes. Repair, yes. Refit, yes. But, they're not (necessarily) fortresses.

Notes

* TTA strongly implies that Aramis' naval base is going to refit two cruisers in its 219th CruRon with Type J Meson Spines. Since the Type J is used to mini-max small cruisers, and there are few overt threats to the Aramis subsector, it is possible that the 219th is composed of two to six 20,000 ton cruisers (but I haven't used HGS to design these, so I could be wrong) and at least half a dozen supporting vessels. Even if that's only 8 Big Ships (and I think it could be double that), Aramis still needs an orbital installation to support them.