What is a Naval Base?
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Fritz_Brown
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I know of one US Navy port in a foreign country that is little more than a dock sticking out into the bay. There's fuel and not much else. There is a small support facility on the hill - headquarters (admin), a small commissary, a place to call home, nothing else. It is labelled a "base". Just my CrImp0.02.
You may be right about the capacities of all Imperial Naval bases -- I have my own reasons to believe that you are -- but the rules of the boardgame FFW are not proof of that. Obviously there are ways for damaged ships to be repaired in "realily". And presumably repair facilities on big bases are one of those ways. But so should shipyards on member worlds with their own ships be. And obviously it is an abstraction that all repairs takes exactly -- how many weeks is it according to the rules? For all we know "repairing" a squadron has nothing to do with repairing its ships but consists of swapping out the damaged ships for newly-arrived intact ships.
Or maybe not. The point is, the rules for a boardgame that spans several subsectors are necessarily highly abstract. If squadrons can "actually" be repaired on most IN bases and a few member worlds without bases, it makes perfect sense to abstract that into a rule that says all IN bases and no worlds without bases. It's a boardgame, not a simulation.
Hans
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There's a mention in TTA of 5000T Hercules class heavy merchants landing in Zila's starport. As described in the adventure "Zilan Wine", Zila's starport isn't actually Class E as advertised (I'd say Class C, though possibly Class D could be justified), but at least the description doesn't give it an orbital component and in any case the text specifically says 'land'.
Hans
I don't think a Naval Base (with a capital b) as established by the world generation system is the same as what is referred to in the21st Century as a naval base (with a small b). I think it is defined in terms of certain capabilities and that a naval base that doesn't have those capabilities is not a Naval Base.
For example, there are a few subsector capitals that doesn't have naval bases. But even if Antra, the capital of the Antra subsector, doesn't need a Naval Base, it's still going to have a polygon (military headquarter; Pentagon, Hexagon, Septagon, Octagon, whatevergon) where the admiral of the 151st Fleet can do his thing ( within com call of the subsector duke). And there's going to be a naval base there where fleet couriers and the odd visiting cruron and batron can get topped up, if not repaired.
For another example, I'm convinced that there would be a small refuelling facility, Naval Couriers, For the Use Of, in the Echiste system, to facilitate communication between Sector HQ at Mora and 213th Fleet HQ at Regina[*]. It's just too useful not to be.
But these bases are not Naval Bases. What they are called I don't know. Naval stations? Naval posts? Naval installations?
Naval baselets?
[*] And if you think 213th Fleet HQ is at Efate, the fastest way for a fleet courier is still through Echiste and Regina.
Hans
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Sure, but canon says naval bases have ground facilities for ships up to 1000 dtons, so, larger ships, though may land, may not be fully supported in the planetside part of a Naval Base.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You don't want a fleet HQ dirt side. Fleet HQ is going to be built into the ships of the squadrons assembled to make the fleet.
Since the Admiral commanding the fleet has to travel with the fleet and is totally outside communications with a superior (how far away is the sector Admiral?) it makes sense that the fleet CnC is some sort of computer and commo protocol built into capital ships.
FFW presents fleets as being very organic - they can change squadron assignments and commanding admiral with a minimum of fuss, no sending off to higher authority to do so.
Since the Admiral commanding the fleet has to travel with the fleet and is totally outside communications with a superior (how far away is the sector Admiral?) it makes sense that the fleet CnC is some sort of computer and commo protocol built into capital ships.
FFW presents fleets as being very organic - they can change squadron assignments and commanding admiral with a minimum of fuss, no sending off to higher authority to do so.
That's definitely not how I see it.
Since the fleet isn't moving about in peacetime, it makes sense to have a stationary building or buildings housing all the administrative apparatus. Just as the Admiral of the Windward Islands Station stayed in Barbados where the Governor could reach him, the Admiral commanding the fleet stationed in a subsector is going to stay in the capital where the Duke can reach him. He's not going anywhere until he's relieved or the Zhodani invades.
FFW depicts a war situation. Besides, so far from being very organic, the admirals in FFW don't lift a finger unless ordered to do so by the Imperial player, who would represent sector command.
Hans
Garyius2003
SOC-13
US naming rules have "Base", direct support of a fleet; "Station", other major activity; "Facility", other activity or smaller size; "Naval Air Station" and "Naval Air Facility", for air with the stationing and support. They also have "Fleet Activities" not in US territory, which is a base with another title, and "Support Activity", which is a station not in US territory with another title.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I've only been vaguely following this so I may have missed it, but CT Supplement 9 has always seemed pretty definitive to me for Imperial Bases (page 6).
And I have to agree, the whole argument of "Well US (Wet!) Navy Bases are this and that so Imperial (Space!) Navy Bases must be similar!" is... specious at best.
Likewise the idea or hinted suggestion that if someone has never visited a US (Wet!) Navy Base they can't have any real idea or valid point as to how the FICTIONAL Imperial (Space!) Navy Bases of a Far Future might operate. That's patently wrong in so many ways.
And I have to agree, the whole argument of "Well US (Wet!) Navy Bases are this and that so Imperial (Space!) Navy Bases must be similar!" is... specious at best.
Likewise the idea or hinted suggestion that if someone has never visited a US (Wet!) Navy Base they can't have any real idea or valid point as to how the FICTIONAL Imperial (Space!) Navy Bases of a Far Future might operate. That's patently wrong in so many ways.
It is, however, just possible that the Imperium doesn't use the word "base" in strict accordance with the USN naming rules.
What does "direct support of a fleet" cover? Would it cover the activities you'd be likely to find at a subsector capital (Which I still believe also means the presence of a fleet HQ)? Would it cover a refuelling facility for navy couriers?
Hans
Garyius2003
SOC-13
I was responding to an earlier post asking for the US naming rules.
I suspect that Starports, on the downport end, would look very much like a combination of a major port with passenger and cargo service like Miami or Baltimore (ramp paving in place of water), plus airport like areas for the quick shuttles to highport or long distance surface flights, plus the free trade zone warehouses and inspection/handling areas, like the intermodal areas, all crammed into a few square miles.
Then the Navy Base would have the warehouses and lots of open maintenance areas, plus some housing areas and heavy security forces. Plus the intermodal handling stuff. Lots of HQs and working buildings.
Has anyone been to Bardufoss? I suspect many 3I bases are like that with an always active side, lots of expansion room and building/tent pads, and storage for equipment and supplies.
I suspect that Starports, on the downport end, would look very much like a combination of a major port with passenger and cargo service like Miami or Baltimore (ramp paving in place of water), plus airport like areas for the quick shuttles to highport or long distance surface flights, plus the free trade zone warehouses and inspection/handling areas, like the intermodal areas, all crammed into a few square miles.
Then the Navy Base would have the warehouses and lots of open maintenance areas, plus some housing areas and heavy security forces. Plus the intermodal handling stuff. Lots of HQs and working buildings.
Has anyone been to Bardufoss? I suspect many 3I bases are like that with an always active side, lots of expansion room and building/tent pads, and storage for equipment and supplies.
Sorry about that. I thought you were responding to my post.
I'm very much in favor of trimming posts, but perhaps quoting a small bit of what one is responding to is useful.
Hans
Why not? In the Marches for example, why is 50-some bases serving 700 or 800 warships and an unknown number of auxiliaries among a population of 250-some billion Imperial citizens in 272 systems impractical? There's no lack of room in orbit, and there's a good argument that the IN's budget has way more money than we can account for with the fleet numbers suggested by canon. The pattern of bases puts most of Imperial space within Jump-4 of a naval base, which would seem to be useful from a logistics point of view.
For the real USN...
Fleet Support includes major component repair in-situ capability, limited dockside crane remove/replace capability, major fuel capability (excepting Nuclear), Resupply (including consumables and routine spares), temporary housing for replacement personell, C3 for the fleet commandant, administrative support for the fleet's staff, and usually, housing for dependents. Further, most provide non-ship-assets - Intel Shops, hospitals, etc. Most also provide airfield support - the ability to transfer people from air-transport to ships. Further, most include component repair shops - many systems are not actually repaired on board - bad subassemblies are swapped out aboard, and the subassemblies repaired at the fleet base. A Radar unit that fails will get replaced underway, and then repaired back at the Electronic Repair Squadron shore-side.
For traveller, several of these are impossible.
C3 (Command/Control/Communications) can't be shore side - the ships are often 2 weeks each way out of contact. (4 weeks round trip). More correctly, C3 has to be distributed - Commodores will need the C3 on site for their flotillas, but Fleet HQ won't be doing actual Command/Control. It will be a coordination center, but it can't be doing command effectively in real-time.
Fuel - yes, fuel is essential to bases, mostly for reaction times, but flotillas have to have integral fuel capabilities to operate as presented. So it's not a definitive requirement in Traveller. (That Navy Bases only occur at Class A&B ports says something entirely else.)
Hospitals: yep, still there. But ships will be more reliant upon either on-board skill & facilities or "Freeze and store."
Intel Centers - They'll still be there - but they will have more distributed assets than a modern fleet. Mostly because you can't send your captured image back to the weenies in the intel shack for analysis for your own use. What you can't analyse aboard, you can't use in any reasonable time, but you can store for later (to build the overall database).
Resupply will be the main duty of the base, and unlike modern, field resupply is a combination of guesswork and/or overkill. (If you carry a spare for every underway-replaceable major assembly, you can't miss except in the numbers; on the other hand, you move a LOT of excess stuff. Likewise, it's 2-6 weeks to get spares you ordered...) If, instead, everyone returns to base for resupply, then you've got far less of an issue... but you also have a much higher failure-induced-abort rate.
Housing: Transient and Dependent Housing will both be just as likely as modern, perhaps more so. Also expect alternate crews, and training simulators. I'd expect full dual-crewing for all ships; bases thus have to house the off-shift crew.
Airfield - irrelevant, at least until gates are developed.
Swapped out system repair - at least in Vilani areas, the bases will have this. (See Vilani & Vargr) Most likely, throughout charted space, this will be normative.
None of these roles really require fortifications. And, for the most part, fortifications only make the risk to dependents worse... at least, if they are anywhere near the dependent housing.
Any "fortification" I would expect would be either Deep Site Meson Guns or monitors... things that don't need to actually be at the base proper.
Which brings up an interesting idea, how big does a space station need to be to mount a meson spinal? It's an orbital fortification that has the plus side if that wants to pull up digs, they can move them to another system, also good for various fortification of gas giants as well as orbital high ports/naval stations.
Around 37KTd. Mind you... we can work it out mathematically:
TL11
2% Bridge, 36% armor, 1500Td for 500EP, 18% hull additional PP, 17% hull MD6, 5000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 9 at 13Td, +36Td Comp Power. +500Td and +6% Fuel
1500+5000+10+30+30+13+36+500+H*(2+36+18+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
7119+H*0.8032=H
7119=H-(H*0.8032)
7119=h*0.1968
7119/0.1968=H
36173.78=H
We need to round several of these up, so at least 36200Td.
We can get smaller at TL 12
TL12
2% Bridge, 26% armor, 1800Td for 600EP, 18% hull additional PP, 17% hull MD6, 2000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 9 at 13Td, +36Td Comp Power. +600Td and +6% Fuel
1800+2000+10+30+30+13+36+500+H*(2+26+18+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
4419+H*70.32=H
4419=H*0.2968
4419/0.2968=H
14888.81=H
So around 15 KTd. Note that the massive reduction in weapon size and armor size at TL12 is a MAJOR change, and drops LOTS of support costs.
TL 13 gets even UGLIER!!!
Oh, crud. I forgot. COmputer TL... Saves a few dozen tons. I'm too lazy to refigure the above in full. but we need only 5 Td computer and 9Td for PP, and 3 Td for its fuel. 17 instead of 49; 32 tons less.
TL 11: 7087/0.1968=H
36011.178 Td. Round it up to about 36100 Td.
TL 12 - 7Td and 15Td PP, 49-22=27.
4392/0.2968=H
14797.8Td - round up to about 14900.
2% Bridge, 28% armor, 1400Td for 700EP, 12% hull additional PP, 17% hull, 1000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 7 at 9Td, +14Td Comp Power+7Td Comp Fuel. +600Td and +6% Fuel
1400+1000+10+30+30+9+14+7+500+H*(2+28+12+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
3000+h*0.6632=h
3000/0.3368=H
4523 Td, round it up to 4600Td.
TL 14 actually gets bigger... more EP required, no PP shrinkage, more armor.
And Oh, grud... I forgot MD crews... 0.34% of hull.
All crew are presumed double occupancy.
I sort of had that kind of thought as well; however it might not be so. Every base might be different.
I'm not sure if an Imperial Navy base qualifies as a starport, or not. It seems to require a class A or B starport, so to me it would be an adjunct, and would use those facilities (shipyard and fuel, for example). Otherwise, why require a starport?
As for how fleets during the FFW got repaired. I wasn't there, so I can't say definitively, but one option is for the fleet to carry the equivalent of a repair yard and supply warehouse with it. Fuel is more critical than either of those, and presumably fleets can refuel.
That means the Fifth Frontier War board game would not precisely be the same as the OTU. But then, neither is the Imperium board game.
On the other hand, bases on the "crust" would be more capable than interior bases, assuming a "crustal" defense strategy.
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Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Exactly. The base is probably the only place that knows where the fleet is, to forward communications. This may actually make base communications more important, though.
You also want the ability to totally refuel however many ships are "in the docks" at once. If they come jumping back and need refit and re-arm, it's silly to make them go out to the gas giant and tank up after they get taken care of instead of during your repairs and such.
Well, you gots to have somewhere to bring the "freeze & forget" casualties. So, definitely hospitals.
Oh yeah. Where else are your spies... errr... patrons going to come from?
A good reason to stick to energy weapons, if possible (it's not). And, a good reason to invent the Replicator.
So, crewing for a whole bunch of ships, without those ships around to keep them busy during the day? You are *asking* for trouble, aren't you?
o:Nah. At a minimum you have to get all those replacement crews back and forth.
Definitely. A depot for all the bits and pieces.
Lots of adventure potential in all those comments, too, Aramis. Hacking the comm shack, blowing up the fuel facilities (or contaminating fuel), stealing mil-grade supplies, reinforcements for that brawl just outside the dirtside base (or just outside the Naval section of the highport), a place for a desperate group of PCs to run to when being chased by unhappy locals, more pilfering of mil-grade supplies, etc.
In MT, IN bases can only be generated in systems with type 'A' or type 'B' starports already. MT space combat section related to damage control and repair makes it clear that type 'A' is needed to repair jump drives whereas both type 'A' and type 'B' can repair everything else. MT also makes it clear that tech level applies as a limit to what can be repaired; a tech 13 starport cannot repair a tech 15 system although the rules mention that the ref can make exceptions to this if desired... a copout imho.
I'll check what Imperial Squadrons says when I get home from work.
I'll check what Imperial Squadrons says when I get home from work.
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