What is a Naval Base?

[Dragoner]

It is that personal experience that taught me that there is NO set standard for the size and facilities of a base, nor for how that base is (or isn't) tied into the local economic structure.

Each base is unique unto itself, and designed to fit the local conditions and mission in and for which it is placed.

IMTU this is how it is done, it is the most realistic.

 

[robject]

Seconded, with the following do's and don'ts for Traveller specifically:

1. All naval bases have support facilities (e.g. maintenance, repair, refit) for naval vessels (and scrounging).
1a. A planetside portion of a naval base, when present, supports ships up to 1000 tons.
1b. An orbital portion of a naval base, when present, supports Big Ships.
2. All Naval bases have areas where people (veterans, patrons) may interact.
3. All Naval bases have security.
4. All Naval bases require and make use of a class A or class B mainworld starport.

5. Some Naval bases support Imperial Fleet squadrons.
6. Some Naval bases are supported by local means.
7. Some Naval bases are part of (or near) the starport.

 

[Dragoner]

In number 4, "rely" may be subject to misinterpetation, "make use of" sounds better imo.

Otherwise agreed for all.

 

[Carlobrand]

... I believe IN bases do not have to have orbital components. In other words, I believe there are IN bases somewhere which only support small ships. ...

Given the scattered nature of the naval bases, why would a space navy make "bases" that didn't support the bulk of its fleet? There's all that open space up there, budget doesn't seem to be a problem, why NOT equip the place to handle the fleet?

If you want to support destroyers in some sort of a forward base, park a big tender there, something mobile equipped with repair bays and a few boats to fetch fuel and such. If things go bad, it can jump out of there, and if strategic needs require you to redeploy your support network elsewhere, you can just move them.

 

[pendragonman]

Given the scattered nature of the naval bases, why would a space navy make "bases" that didn't support the bulk of its fleet? There's all that open space up there, budget doesn't seem to be a problem, why NOT equip the place to handle the fleet?

If you want to support destroyers in some sort of a forward base, park a big tender there, something mobile equipped with repair bays and a few boats to fetch fuel and such. If things go bad, it can jump out of there, and if strategic needs require you to redeploy your support network elsewhere, you can just move them.

Does every American naval base fully support a fleet? No. Too expensive to have full fleet capabilities everywhere. It is for this reason that a space navy would not necessarily have full fleet support at all bases.

 

[mike wightman]

FFS - the Imperium is not the US in space.

The rules in FFW clearly state that a damaged squadron may be returned to full strength at any naval base - providing you have the RP to do so of course

A naval base can also refuel squadrons.

Any naval base in the OTU is capable of squadron/fleet support.

 

[pendragonman]

FFS - the Imperium is not the US in space.

The rules in FFW clearly state that a damaged squadron may be returned to full strength at any naval base - providing you have the RP to do so of course

A naval base can also refuel squadrons.

Any naval base in the OTU is capable of squadron/fleet support.

And the US Navy can do battle repairs and refuel at any base it has. They just can't do refits or construction at all of them. What is your point?

My point was enduring costs make full bases everywhere prohibitive.

 

[mike wightman]

My main point is the IN is not the US navy, and IN bases in the OTU are not US naval bases and shouldn't be modelled on them.

Every IN base in the OTU is capable of full fleet support.

Every base is capable of fully refuelling every squadron in every fleet that calls there. Every base is capable of returning damaged squadrons to full strength.

 

[pendragonman]

My main point is the IN is not the US navy, and IN bases in the OTU are not US naval bases and shouldn't be modelled on them.

Every IN base in the OTU is capable of full fleet support.

Every base is capable of fully refuelling every squadron in every fleet that calls there. Every base is capable of returning damaged squadrons to full strength.

Please direct me to where this is stated in canon. Full fleet support does not necessarily include doing refits or construction. If you have A DIRECT QUOTE, and not an interpretation, please provide.

If all full fleet support is refuel/rearm/repair, then every US Navy base does that too.

 

[Timerover51]

And the US Navy can do battle repairs and refuel at any base it has. They just can't do refits or construction at all of them. What is your point?

My point was enduring costs make full bases everywhere prohibitive.

Great Lakes Naval Base is a US Navy base. It is located on Lake Michigan, one hour north of Chicago, in the US. It has no capacity to repair any ship, nor refuel any ship, nor re-arm any ship.

China Lakes Naval Air Weapons Station is located in the Mojave Desert, and is the US Navy's largest facility. It is a bit hard to repair, refuel, or re-arm ships in the middle of the Mojave Desert.

Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay is a US Navy base. It can handle rearming submarines. No major repair facilities, no major refueling capability, no major surface vessels assigned there.

As for ship construction, I would suggest that you take a look at where ships are actually built, and by whom they are built. Is in not the Navy.

Edit Note: I probably should add the Washington Navy Yard, Annapolis, Maryland, and Newport, Rhode Island to that list too. Then there are the Naval Air Stations, and the Support Command locations.

 

[pendragonman]

Great Lakes Naval Base is a US Navy base. It is located on Lake Michigan, one hour north of Chicago, in the US. It has no capacity to repair any ship, nor refuel any ship, nor re-arm any ship.

China Lakes Naval Air Weapons Station is located in the Mojave Desert, and is the US Navy's largest facility. It is a bit hard to repair, refuel, or re-arm ships in the middle of the Mojave Desert.

Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay is a US Navy base. It can handle rearming submarines. No major repair facilities, no major refueling capability, no major surface vessels assigned there.

As for ship construction, I would suggest that you take a look at where ships are actually built, and by whom they are built. Is in not the Navy.

Edit Note: I probably should add the Washington Navy Yard, Annapolis, Maryland, and Newport, Rhode Island to that list too. Then there are the Naval Air Stations, and the Support Command locations.

And these are precisely my points about the unrealistic expectation that EVERY IN naval base can do these things. And the quote I was looking for has to do with Traveller canon, not real world. But thanks for pointing these things out.

However, I point out that fuel is available at the Port of Chicago, and any battles fought on the Great Lakes between Canada and the US can certainly be repaired there.

China Lakes certainly can repair aircraft, which for Traveller purposes are ships. As to the other locations you mention please refer to their WWI and WWII jobs. Many ships were repaired at those places, or finished their fitting out there.

The basis of many person's argument here is that EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL NAVAL BASE, every single one, can do all of those things for every size vessel in the Imperial navy. This is just not practical.

 

[Timerover51]

And these are precisely my points about the unrealistic expectation that EVERY IN naval base can do these things. And the quote I was looking for has to do with Traveller canon, not real world. But thanks for pointing these things out.

However, I point out that fuel is available at the Port of Chicago, and any battles fought on the Great Lakes between Canada and the US can certainly be repaired there.

China Lakes certainly can repair aircraft, which for Traveller purposes are ships. As to the other locations you mention please refer to their WWI and WWII jobs. Many ships were repaired at those places, or finished their fitting out there.

The basis of many person's argument here is that EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL NAVAL BASE, every single one, can do all of those things for every size vessel in the Imperial navy. This is just not practical.

There is a shipyard in Marinette, Wisconsin that is building Littorial Combat Ships for the Navy. That is probably the only yard on the lakes that could work on a Navy ship. That is a private yard. The yard at Sturgeon Bay has a big dry dock, but no experience with warships.

 

[Enoki]

Simple answer is it is a starport for naval vessels. Civilians keep out...

 

[Carlobrand]

Great Lakes Naval Base is a US Navy base. It is located on Lake Michigan, one hour north of Chicago, in the US. It has no capacity to repair any ship, nor refuel any ship, nor re-arm any ship.

I'm finding it listed as Naval Station Great Lakes. Does the Navy has some criteria that determines whether they call something a base or a station?

... Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay is a US Navy base. It can handle rearming submarines. No major repair facilities, no major refueling capability, no major surface vessels assigned there.
...

Interesting example: a specialty base. Will have to rethink the business about destroyer bases.

 

[mike wightman]

Please direct me to where this is stated in canon. Full fleet support does not necessarily include doing refits or construction. If you have A DIRECT QUOTE, and not an interpretation, please provide.

If all full fleet support is refuel/rearm/repair, then every US Navy base does that too.

Go and read the FFW board game rules - it's all in there.

Page 10 - refuelling; page 16 - replacements.

It's very much canon.

 

[McPerth]

I've always assumed that every IN base (those listed in the OTU map) has the capability to serve, repair and refit any IN ship, and has large stocks of spares and munitions to do that, regardless of the world UPP.

Should that not be true, please, tell me how ships were served in the FFW, as the closest TL15 base or shipyard (Rhylanor) was about 3-4 jumps from the main front (Regina Subsector). Should ships have to retreat to Rhylanor for damages (due to lack of orbital facilities or TL), that meant even minor damage took a ship out of commision for about 7-12 weeks (3-4 to reach Rhylanor, 1-4 weeks to make repairs, according TCS and assuming no criticals to repair, and 3-4 weeks again to return to main lines).

Even worst would be the situation of the fleets trapped in Jewell and Efate, as they had no access to such a shipyard, yet they managed to keep as fighting units (though I guess at diminished levels, as they surely were using TL12-13 missiles instead of TL 15 ones, to give an example) for the whole war, serving along with the planetary navies.

I don't have access to TTA, but for all I've read here, it's told that there some Cruisers are being refitted with Spinal Mesons J in Aramis base. Aside from that implying there is an orbital facility capable to do that (as the spinal weapons themselves are 1000 dton, the ships are sure larger, so may not be served planetside), even if they are TL15 refits (the TL of the J meson spinal) in a TL11 world (Aramis), so hinting what I've said that IN bases may serve IN ships regardless the UPP.

Of course, if I'm right and all bases are stocked with spares and munitions to serve the IN TL15 fleet, that means seccurity must be quite thight...

And about the shipbuilding capability of the IN bases, as they can also be in B rated starports, I assume not all of them have the capability to build new ships, only those in A rated starports.

Sure there are minor bases (or stations) in oher starports, that would represent those listed here by Timerover51, but, IMHO, those listed on the map represent Major IN bases, capable to serve the whole fleet.

 

[mike wightman]

And these are precisely my points about the unrealistic expectation that EVERY IN naval base can do these things. And the quote I was looking for has to do with Traveller canon, not real world. But thanks for pointing these things out.

Unfortunately canon in the form of the FFW board game makes it clear that every single IN base on the map can refuel any fleet that calls there and refit/repair any damaged squadron. Which of course begs the question just how many fuel shuttles, fuel storage tanks, missile magazines, freezing stations are part of the base.

Chances are that the bulk of the base in a large ship universe has to be space based - for the sake of security I would make it deep space rather than orbital but that's just me

China Lakes certainly can repair aircraft, which for Traveller purposes are ships. As to the other locations you mention please refer to their WWI and WWII jobs. Many ships were repaired at those places, or finished their fitting out there.

There is nothing analogous to an aircraft in the space navies of Traveller. MTBs are the closest thing to the small craft of Traveller space warfare.

The basis of many person's argument here is that EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL NAVAL BASE, every single one, can do all of those things for every size vessel in the Imperial navy. This is just not practical.

Maybe not - but them's the rules

 

[McPerth]

The basis of many person's argument here is that EVERY SINGLE IMPERIAL NAVAL BASE, every single one, can do all of those things for every size vessel in the Imperial navy. This is just not practical.

I disagree with you here. I have not run the exact numbers, but at grosso modo I'd say there are an average of 2-4 IN bases per subsector. What I'd find unpractical would be that your damaged ships were, at average, more than 1 jump away from a place able to repair them.

As an example, should its jump drive be damaged and undergone field repairs, I don't think they'd like to force it more than 1 jump before it could be repaired. Same if its PP is field repaired (threatening with life support failure for lack of power), etc...

Remember, those are most needed in times of crisis (mainly war, but I guess other crisis too), and in those times time is a prime factor.

There is nothing analogous to an aircraft in the space navies of Traveller.

Closer equivalents would be (IMHO) fighters, but, as they are all under the 1000 dtons threshold, they wouldn't need orbital facilities to be served/repaired (TL limits will apply anyway)

 

[Aldan Romar]

I'm just fleshing out a system with a mainworld naval and scout base. Most of the (low) population of the planet is centered around the (class B) starport (star city - the only city on the planet).

The starport consists of a central tarmac and surrounding landing bays. A fenced of part of the tarmac and a section of the surrounding ring is occupied by the Imperial Navy (the ground portion of the naval base).

Apart from workshops and warehouses, the naval section houses administration, a branch of a naval academy, a recruiting office and barracks for a small security contingent of Imperial Marines.

The larger part of the naval base is located at the highport, which allows only emergency civilian access. Here we have the central command centers and communication arrays alongside maintenance docks, crew quarters and training facilities. Handling of civilian (unstreamlined) traffic would be handled off the station, most likely in space.

I haven't thought about dependents until now. I always figured they would live in the city, so outside the extraterritoriality of the starport/base, most likely in an adjacent sector.

I figured security would be very tight but mostly passive (barriers, locks and security systems) around the ground part, basically because the local population is - ruled by an imperial noble - not very large - has no standing armed forces. Access to the Highport would be restricted to any non-military personell, except civilian contractors. Space defense would rely on point defense turrets and missiles, relying on security fleets for more punch.

If I go with the points in the opening post (which are very helpful):

0. Naval bases can be ground-based or orbital. Ground-based service ships up to 1000 tons.

Ground based and orbital.

1. Naval bases do have support facilities (e.g. maintenance, repair, refit) for naval vessels (and scrounging).

All major support facilities are 'orbit-side'.

2. Naval bases can have support for Imperial Fleet squadrons.

The base in question is supporting a permanently attached CruRon in addition to passing Cru- and BatRons (barely) of the Subsector fleet.

3. Naval bases do have areas where people (veterans, patrons) may interact.

I would place these areas within the civilian boundaries of the downport, though there may be visitor areas for military and reserve military personell as well as for imperial officials.

4. Naval bases can be supported by local means. Some might need long-term life support.

Due to a lack of a local industrial sector, this naval base cannot be supported by local means. The only exception would be fuel from the sytem's gas giants.

5. Naval bases are probably secure.

As described above.

6. They do not have to be part of the starport, or near it.

In this case the base is part of the starport.

 

[aramis]

And the US Navy can do battle repairs and refuel at any base it has.

not true. Some are pure air-stations, some are not equipped for even repair-support, let alone staffed for shore-crewed repairs (NAS Adak used to be just such a base... All repair was focused upon aircraft... and the docks had trouble with ships, period.)