CT Only: What One Thing Would You Change About Classic Traveller?

[kilemall]

I respectfully and politely disagree, partly. I'm playing in a Mongoose game now. The task system is fine -- it works*.

On the other hand, I find that their skill improvement rules distract from the game. They have essentially introduced a form of "leveling up" fully into the game. We're all tallying up weeks in training, waiting to level up a skill.

This fills an empty place in many people's minds. But Traveller ignores leveling up on purpose. I feel that adding it back in appeals solely to gamer twitch -- it sure does me. In the long run is at best value-neutral, and at worst moves Traveller towards a pale variant of Star Wars / D&D / Pathfinder / Whatever.

MAYBE, MAYBE that leveling up mechanic introduces some sort of interest in "what to do during jump". But, I think it's the wrong approach. In other words, it seems to me that the solution does not fit the need.




* Although I worry that the precomputed task bonuses are not as great an idea as they first looked... due to the essential nature of re-computing that bonus as characters take damage. Introduce another table? Eh.

I went kind of a different way. 3 skills per term, first skill is Skill-0, set skills as broadly as possible then note what the character is familiar doing with the big wide skill. Then use the Instruction mechanic from LBB4+ for the character to work with new equipment/familiarity, they are skill-0 until they work with/practice on the new stuff.


Gives em a sense of learning/empowerment during gameplay but not really crazy since it's all in their skill range they have already.


Then they can do fast Instruction as means to improve fast, but it gets MUCH more difficult going from Skill-0 to Skill-1, moreso Skill-1 to Skill-2, and getting a sensei for Skill-3 that has Instruction-4/Skill-4 is going to require impressing/questing not money and time.


Also have the Eureka skill improvement, but that's risky as heck.

 

[mike wightman]

Ya cept for the fly in the ointment- the jack of all trades skill. Don't have that, CAN'T do everything.

As I posted up thread, you don't need a particular skill to attempt a situation saving throw that may require a skill for a lot of the CT skills. JoT grants a bonus, unskilled attempts don't.

So some people are MacGyver/Doc Savage/Lazurus Long, most aren't.

Most don't even know how the JoT skill works...

 

[mike wightman]

Athletics and Science skills are no brainer missing ones too.

Science 'skills' are subsumed by the Education characteristic, Athletics would be a competition between physical stats. Including them as separate skills increases skill bloat needlessly.

Now if there was an Athlete/Sports career specializing in a particular sport that may make sense...

 

[McPerth]

The could perhaps be overstated. I think many of the repairs require yard work. Small weapons, perhaps bay weapons, computer, bridge can all I think be field repaired.

Spinals, drives, armor, likely can not be readily repaired in the field. Getting the large hulls back to a yard could be quite challenging. "How do you tow a Tigress through jump space?".

Not saying its impossible, but it would certainly take longer, and I can see a large ship having to be repaired in situ being off line for a year. Far cry from 3+ years to make a new one, but at the same time, a lot of damage can be done in a year.

One thing we saw as evidenced during the rebellion was how fast the fleet exhausted themselves against each other, and part of that is what led to the stalemates. Ships that take years to build and repair are destroyed and disabled in minutes.

Some are quite light hits. Crew is the most vulnerable and readily repaired, to be sure, to a point. As a captured vessel, it needs a full crew, but at least you can get the ship back in orbit someplace friendly.

But also, by the same notion, perhaps not mentioned, is that if ships are about to fall in to enemy hands, for all the reasons discussed, they may well be scuttled in place (ideally after the crew is offloaded somehow) rather than be allowed to be captured. So that can also be an aspect why canon losses are so high and/or captures so low.

Retreating forces have a history of destroying left behind equipment.

Well, unlike land troops, sailors don't use to be able to retreat leaving behind equipment, and so, along naval battles history, I guess surrendering the ship when disabled has been more usual than scuttling it and sinking with it (though not in latter times)...

All of this was thoughtly discussed in this old thread and I'd hate to clog this one with this...

 

[Condottiere]

I don't recall a preplaced explosives option in the ship design process.

There's always the fusion bottle.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Now if there was an Athlete/Sports career specializing in a particular sport may make sense...

{checks Droyne caste system}

Nah ... he couldn't be ...
No no, definitely not.

 

[willtron3030]

Ya cept for the fly in the ointment- the jack of all trades skill. Don't have that, CAN'T do everything.

So some people are MacGyver/Doc Savage/Lazurus Long, most aren't.

In a world where characters having skill-1 means that character is capable (if not credentialed) to work professionally in the field, Jack-of-All-Trades means the character is impressively - almost unreasonably - capable of "faking it". Depending on the characters deportment, it might be difficult for an *unskilled* observer to recognize that the character is largely making it up as they go along, based on what they've seen handing tools to someone doing the work, or were cross-trained in, or found in tech manuals in a desperate fight against boredom.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Best reinterpretation of J-o-T skill for a new edition is ... divide skill by 2, then subtract 1 (just like Pilot and Ship Tactics skills in LBB5.80) and that is the skill level the J-o-T offers for any and every skill.

Jack of All Trades 1-2 = Skill-0 in everything
Jack of All Trades 3-4 = Skill-1 in everything
Jack of All Trades 5-6 = Skill-2 in everything
Jack of All Trades 7-8 = Skill-3 in everything
Jack of All Trades 9-10 = Skill-4 in everything

You get the idea.
This then lets a character with enough J-o-T skill be able to "MacGuyver" their way out of almost any situation.

It also means that J-o-T skill-3 is enough to allow a character to take ANY crew position on a starship (among other things). This then allows for a "backdoor" way for characters to have access to skills they normally wouldn't have access to through their service skills tables (with enough J-o-T skill built up).

 

[Grav_Moped]

There are some things that annoy me about CT that I have homeruled, but I guess the biggest miss is the inconsistent skill set of highly specialized every particular personal gun skill versus big skills like Engineering and Pilot, and some interpersonal skills from the MgT skills like Persuade (which I use to substitute for Bribery, Carousing AND Liaison) and Investigate, which I substitute Interrogation for but is MUCH more useful for many career templates.



Athletics and Science skills are no brainer missing ones too.

The specificity of the personal firearm skills acts to soak up skill points in character generation. Almost everybody starts with "all guns" at level 0. Weapon skills are proficiency with specific weapons. A character can be an expert marksman with a particular weapon, or slightly better than the default with a few, but the rules make it unlikely that they'll be expert with multiple different weapons.

If this wasn't intentional, at the very least it's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[mike wightman]

The best version of the JoT skill is still that presented in 77 CT:

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Guess the bottom line is that some of the skills added in LBB4-8 could use some judicious editing and pruning to clear out some of the "unneeded" skills and consolidate various skills into some of the cascade type skills (such as Liaison, for example).

 

[McPerth]

In a world where characters having skill-1 means that character is capable (if not credentialed) to work professionally in the field, Jack-of-All-Trades means the character is impressively - almost unreasonably - capable of "faking it". Depending on the characters deportment, it might be difficult for an *unskilled* observer to recognize that the character is largely making it up as they go along, based on what they've seen handing tools to someone doing the work, or were cross-trained in, or found in tech manuals in a desperate fight against boredom.

I always gave in CT/MT all skills in the Service Skill table at level 0, representing the basic training for the career. Surprisingly for me, MgT went also that way (on your first career).

Best reinterpretation of J-o-T skill for a new edition is ... divide skill by 2, then subtract 1 (just like Pilot and Ship Tactics skills in LBB5.80) and that is the skill level the J-o-T offers for any and every skill.

Jack of All Trades 1-2 = Skill-0 in everything
Jack of All Trades 3-4 = Skill-1 in everything
Jack of All Trades 5-6 = Skill-2 in everything
Jack of All Trades 7-8 = Skill-3 in everything
Jack of All Trades 9-10 = Skill-4 in everything

You get the idea.
This then lets a character with enough J-o-T skill be able to "MacGuyver" their way out of almost any situation.

IMHO, this makes this skill too powerful. As I have stated many times, I personaly go with MT approach, allowing one retry per level of JOT in most non-instant tasks (but, with MT task system, making them hazardous).

This represents the ressourcefulness of the character, not enouhg as to act as a profesional in what he's unskilled, but also helping in what he is (making those retries hazardous represents the makeshift of those solutions).

That means a carácter with Engineering 2 and JOT 3 is quite better than another with Engineering 2 but without JOT at Engineering, but not as good as one with Mechanical 1 (or even Mechanical 0, if the first one does not have it) and no JOT in mechanics.

It also means that J-o-T skill-3 is enough to allow a character to take ANY crew position on a starship (among other things). This then allows for a "backdoor" way for characters to have access to skills they normally wouldn't have access to through their service skills tables (with enough J-o-T skill built up).

I'm not so sure about this, as regulations and laws probably make it necessary to have a certification (obtained with formal training) to occupy most those positions.

So, even if your JOT is enough as for you to be counted as Medical 3. you're not a doctor, and so you cannot make prescriptions, etc...

Likewise, if your carácter JOT allows him to act as Pilot 2, but has no certification, he will not be allowed to become a Pilot in a ship, while another with Pilot 1 will be, despite not being as good in game mechanics...

 

[mike wightman]

Guess the bottom line is that some of the skills added in LBB4-8 could use some judicious editing and pruning to clear out some of the "unneeded" skills and consolidate various skills into some of the cascade type skills (such as Liaison, for example).

I agree.

I often use them as special cases for existing skills as in CT LBB1.

 

[robject]

The best version of the JoT skill is still that
presented in 77 CT:

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee.

Quoted for Truth; however, each ruleset redefines what JOT means, so it might not mean that for Mongoose-As-Written, et al.

 

[robject]

Guess the bottom line is that some of the skills added in LBB4-8 could use some judicious editing and pruning to clear out some of the "unneeded" skills and consolidate various skills into some of the cascade type skills (such as Liaison, for example).

I think this is always a healthy practice for referees.

 

[Condottiere]

I always saw it as a Renaissance man, get out of jail, card up your sleeve skill.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I personaly go with MT approach, allowing one retry per level of JOT in most non-instant tasks (but, with MT task system, making them hazardous).

This represents the ressourcefulness of the character, not enouhg as to act as a profesional in what he's unskilled, but also helping in what he is (making those retries hazardous represents the makeshift of those solutions).

That means a carácter with Engineering 2 and JOT 3 is quite better than another with Engineering 2 but without JOT at Engineering, but not as good as one with Mechanical 1 (or even Mechanical 0, if the first one does not have it) and no JOT in mechanics.

Being able to use Jack of All Trades as a "fumble/failure prevention" type skill via use of rerolls (if needed) makes for a compelling use case, both for Referees and for Players. It doesn't "add" to your skillset (per se), so you aren't getting a +DM from J-o-T on dice rolls ... but you are "better protected" against failing to succeed through the reroll(s) opportunity if you fail.

This follows one of my personal preferences in game design when wanting to make an alteration. Hold the line on the maximum performance, but allow the minimum performance to rise in order to reduce the "spread" between best and worst outcomes. Rerolls through J-o-T don't make the individual rolls "better" in any way (no added DM), you're just less likely to fail with rerolls (but can still fail if all of the rerolls fail, you just need to "fail more times" in order to fail).

A very compelling argument.
I subscribe to your superior interpretation. :coffeesip:

 

[kilemall]

Best reinterpretation of J-o-T skill for a new edition is ... divide skill by 2, then subtract 1 (just like Pilot and Ship Tactics skills in LBB5.80) and that is the skill level the J-o-T offers for any and every skill.

Jack of All Trades 1-2 = Skill-0 in everything
Jack of All Trades 3-4 = Skill-1 in everything
Jack of All Trades 5-6 = Skill-2 in everything
Jack of All Trades 7-8 = Skill-3 in everything
Jack of All Trades 9-10 = Skill-4 in everything

You get the idea.
This then lets a character with enough J-o-T skill be able to "MacGuyver" their way out of almost any situation.

It also means that J-o-T skill-3 is enough to allow a character to take ANY crew position on a starship (among other things). This then allows for a "backdoor" way for characters to have access to skills they normally wouldn't have access to through their service skills tables (with enough J-o-T skill built up).

Too powerful unless running supercharacters.


I think the skill-0 retry mechanic is just fine. 3 retries is a lot of tries.

 

[kilemall]

The specificity of the personal firearm skills acts to soak up skill points in character generation. Almost everybody starts with "all guns" at level 0. Weapon skills are proficiency with specific weapons. A character can be an expert marksman with a particular weapon, or slightly better than the default with a few, but the rules make it unlikely that they'll be expert with multiple different weapons.

If this wasn't intentional, at the very least it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Eh, I just have a problem with extremely specificity on one end and wide-ranging on the other. Since I am running CT stuff I want 'best of' the LBB plus the LBB4+ skills but not the term roll/skill bloat of same.


Plus those sweet sweet MgT 'soft' skills.



Example, Gunnery for me is not just starship weapons, but ALL heavy weapons, including artillery, HMGs, etc.


I've got all the 18 CT careers as is, plus a tweak for NCO promotions if applicable with overwrites of many of those specialized skills (so Hunting becomes Recon for instance), plus an additional Advanced Education Table with qualifier INT 8+, and tweaking promotion rolls to also award medals/civilian awards as applicable.



Between that and the skill-0/1 base 3 skills rolls, the one termers aren't so hopeless, the 6-termer isn't a god, and the regular old CT careers aren't overrun by the LBB4+ versions.


Works for me, <shrug> present it as an option for others or not.

 

[Spinward Flow]

with overwrites of many of those specialized skills (so Hunting becomes Recon for instance)

Shouldn't Hunting/Recon/etc. be subsumed into the Survival skill?