Where are the Frontiers

[rancke]

Darn it, flykiller, I've been telling myself to stop raining on other people's parades so much, and then you post something like this.

I'm sorry to do this to you, but...

"what, redzone the star system? that won't work, we'll have every harebrained adventurer and desperate trader jumping in-system just to see what we're hiding."

"So we'd give some extreme navigational hazard as the reason for the interdict. Like Nirton, only even more so. Trouble is, the system must have been visited by dozens of explorers over the last four centuries, starting with our own Scouts in the 1st Century. Reports must be filed in scores of library data collections and private files."

"we take it off the list before we submit the master survey." bright, happy smile.

"that's ... that's crazy! you can't hide a star system, it's right there for everyone to see!"

the senior admiral stirred. "after the master survey charts are submitted, does anyone look at anything but the navigation data?"

"Every professional and amateur astronomer on worlds for many parsecs around might decide to take a direct peek. Sooner or later someone would, and probably sooner rather than later. Besides, the system is already in all local astronomical databases. If we don't include it in the Survey, we'll shine a spotlight on it right away."

"No, an interdict is the only possibility. But we'd have to spend the resources to give it a lot more bite than our average interdicts. No merely visiting patrols. A couple of squadrons of escorts permanently stationed, I say."


Hans

 

[aramis]

No, that's not it. There are plenty of blank spaces throughout the Imperium, let alone Charted Space. The difference is that with a true frontier, if a player asks, "What's in that star system there?", the answer is "Nobody knows." But for a place like, for example, the Trojan Reach, if a player asks "What's in that star system there?", the answer is "I don't know. No one has detailed it yet. However, merchants and scouts and explorers have been criss-crossing the Trojan Reach for 700 years, so the knowledge is readiliy available in any decent set of library data. I'll figure something out and let you know next session."


Hans

Anywhere you can get to within 2 months (about 50 parsecs, or 165 LY) via jump drive will already have been major-body-detected remotely, given current real-world (TL 8) technology. The Frontier is in the setting. And it's 10 years at J4 from the center of the Zhodani Consulate.

Given the improvements in sensors postulated in the game mechanics, I'd expect a lot more data. True exploration isn't going to be going anyplace "Where there be nothin' known"...

Even life is likely to be detected by using interferometry and looking for chlorophyl.

 

[Frankymole]

But for a place like, for example, the Trojan Reach, if a player asks "What's in that star system there?", the answer is "I don't know. No one has detailed it yet. However, merchants and scouts and explorers have been criss-crossing the Trojan Reach for 700 years, so the knowledge is readiliy available in any decent set of library data. I'll figure something out and let you know next session."

Is CT Adventure 4, Leviathan, no longer canon then? I thought it was just the J-Torps that had been decanonised. Had great fun in the Outrim Void as a lad.

Doing my 9-parsec-thick 3D subsectors there are lots of interesting systems within 50ly of Sol (I'm hoping to render all the 2300AD systems in their proper places on a Traveller grid) so the Solomani Sphere might be my starting point for an MTU... the other advantage is that I can finally get Andy Slack's shipyard in, the Solstice Yards of Fodor, and have the excellent Explorer Class scout vessel in my universe.

 

[Frankymole]

Anywhere you can get to within 2 months (about 50 parsecs, or 165 LY) via jump drive

2 months - 8 or 9 weeks - would get you about 26 parsecs at J-6 given the transit times, refuelling, maintenance etc. But most Travellers are going to be in ships going J-2 or perhaps J-4 at best, unless given a ship for some special courier mission.

The Beyond and The Vanguard Reaches were considered frontiers/wild west (wild spinward), and even the Spinward Marches was "The Imperial Fringe". The Outrim Void in Adventure 4 added to this early, rangy Traveller. Not sure how it's all become a hub of civilization since - weird. Adventure 5, Trillion Credit Squadron, had another option - islands in the rift.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I think timerover is asking: What about the explorations of Lief Erikson, Sir Captain Richard Burton, Marco Polo?

To me, it's kind of like asking "where are the wooden steam powered space ships"

As I already covered in much more detail (Back in post #8 Link) and others have covered and I will restate again more succinctly,

The type of frontier, what is known before manned exploration, the type of explorers, and how it is explored changes over time with technology.

This is something I think one should embrace when playing a sci fi game, even if not using the 3I setting. Several have offered good suggestions for both in and out of the 3I.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Beyond and The Vanguard Reaches were considered frontiers/wild west (wild spinward), and even the Spinward Marches was "The Imperial Fringe". The Outrim Void in Adventure 4 added to this early, rangy Traveller. Not sure how it's all become a hub of civilization since - weird.

The center? Hardly. The Marches have only been Imperial territory for 800 years. Buncha upstarts.

To me, it's kind of like asking "where are the wooden steam powered space ships"

Wooden ships are powered by beer.

 

[creativehum]

To me, it's kind of like asking "where are the wooden steam powered space ships"

As I already covered in much more detail (Back in post #8 Link) and others have covered and I will restate again more succinctly,

The type of frontier, what is known before manned exploration, the type of explorers, and how it is explored changes over time with technology.

This is something I think one should embrace when playing a sci fi game, even if not using the 3I setting. Several have offered good suggestions for both in and out of the 3I.

I'm not sure how point 2 in your post varies from what I wrote.

"2) a region that forms the margin of settled or developed territory
- you have this with the 3I setting. I'm sure you can find a moon or asteroid or even a planet that is undeveloped even within the Imperium. You certainly could travel out, or already live on the far edges of mapped space and go exploring."

And then you go on to state one might meet people already there.

Which is exactly what I posited in my examples. Certainly the example of Captain Sir Richard Burton and Marco Polo. Explorers knew people were there... but it was still an unknown affair to go into geographies and cultures.

I'm sure I'm missing something. But perhaps not. We might be saying the same thing. The fact that an unmanned craft sent back data and pictures of distant worlds doesn't change the fact that going there and interacting with unknown civilizations is still going to be an adventure. Or so it seems to me.

 

[rancke]

Is CT Adventure 4, Leviathan, no longer canon then? I thought it was just the J-Torps that had been decanonised. Had great fun in the Outrim Void as a lad.

It has not, sadly, been decanonized. But it ought to be. It just doesn't work for the Classic Era. For the reason mentioned.


Hans

 

[infojunky]

It has not, sadly, been decanonized. But it ought to be. It just doesn't work for the Classic Era. For the reason mentioned.

That all depends on when you started playing....

 

[rancke]

That all depends on when you started playing....

No, it depends on how the OTU developed. Back when Leviathan was written, it had a perfectly viable backstory, because no one had said anything about Glisten Subsector having been settled 800 years earlier and been visited by Aslan traders for 700. But once that little tidbit became established, the background broke like a china shop with a bull in it.


Hans

 

[aramis]

2 months - 8 or 9 weeks - would get you about 26 parsecs at J-6 given the transit times, refuelling, maintenance etc. But most Travellers are going to be in ships going J-2 or perhaps J-4 at best, unless given a ship for some special courier mission.

The Beyond and The Vanguard Reaches were considered frontiers/wild west (wild spinward), and even the Spinward Marches was "The Imperial Fringe". The Outrim Void in Adventure 4 added to this early, rangy Traveller. Not sure how it's all become a hub of civilization since - weird. Adventure 5, Trillion Credit Squadron, had another option - islands in the rift.

Sorry, been working on hop drives. Hop 1 gets you 50-60 parsecs in 2 months,,,

 

[aramis]

No, it depends on how the OTU developed. Back when Leviathan was written, it had a perfectly viable backstory, because no one had said anything about Glisten Subsector having been settled 800 years earlier and been visited by Aslan traders for 700. But once that little tidbit became established, the background broke like a china shop with a bull in it.


Hans

The backstory was just as bogus or non bogus then as now. YOU just didn't care back then. I did.

See, the complaints boil down to:

• Small ship BC in big ship OTU
• Too few ships in the SSU by an order of magnitude or more already, so the small number of them shouldn't matter much at all
• Nasty hybrid of Bk2 and Bk5-'79
• Too big to matter to players

Take your pick, they're all things I heard back in the 80's and 90's. C & D were my take on it in the 80's and 90's. My players never went above about 600Td of ship.

 

[rancke]

The backstory was just as bogus or non bogus then as now.

No it wasn't. There was very little backstory for Leviathan and what there was worked adequately, mostly because there was no other backstory around to contradict it.

It's been a long time since I last read Leviathan, so perhaps I've overlooked or forgotten some internal inconsistencies that provide some degree of bogosity. But whatever the level, it was definitely much smaller back then that it is now.


Hans

 

[RandyB]

The frontiers are dirtside. How many planets are sparsely inhabited? Sure, there's the question of an orbiting starship or short-duration navsats providing support, and you can only use the "freak electrical storm" so many times (once...), but this is sci-fi. IMO, trying for an historical-Earth exploration feel is a little far outside of the scope of the genre.

 

[creativehum]

Wait.
Have we reached a point in the conversation where exploration and science fiction don't mix?
Because what the hell.

 

[GamingGlen]

The frontiers are dirtside. How many planets are sparsely inhabited? Sure, there's the question of an orbiting starship or short-duration navsats providing support, and you can only use the "freak electrical storm" so many times (once...), but this is sci-fi. IMO, trying for an historical-Earth exploration feel is a little far outside of the scope of the genre.

Yet Star Trek did this. Some initial surveys took place years and centuries ago, now the Enterprise crew are doing extensive follow-up assessments.

You could do the same in Traveller. I tried to do some solo exploration, but after generating a few worlds in an open subsector it got boring. A referee could set up the worlds/subsector ahead of time for a more open let-them-explore-where-they-want campaign, or the ship and crew have orders to go to a certain star system and the referee can set just that one up (spread out the world generation).

 

[salochin999]

If you want completely unexplored and unsensored can't you just stick a nebula in between?

 

[salochin999]

I think the question is does the OP mean frontier as in "boldly go" unexplored frontier or "wild west" type frontier which is explored but often lawless.

If it's the first then I'd say either go up (with a nebula in between to hide details) or back in time and TL.

If it's the second then people who feel logic dictates a big ship universe but still want a Wild West feel in some of it need to think of a way to reconcile having a big ship universe and a Wild West universe side by side.

One way to do that is crank time back to before the mega systems exist - so only the start planet has a very high population and the rest have only been colonized for a few centuries.

 

[rancke]

I think the question is does the OP mean frontier as in "boldly go" unexplored frontier or "wild west" type frontier which is explored but often lawless.

If it's the first then I'd say either go up (with a nebula in between to hide details) or back in time and TL.

You don't need the territory to be explored to be totally unknown. As long as it's more myth and speculation than fact it works perfectly well.

If it's the second then people who feel logic dictates a big ship universe but still want a Wild West feel in some of it need to think of a way to reconcile having a big ship universe and a Wild West universe side by side.

It's not a question of big or small ships but about big or small shipbuilding budgets. If anything, big ships are better than small ships because they soak up huge gobs of budget.

One way to do that is crank time back to before the mega systems exist - so only the start planet has a very high population and the rest have only been colonized for a few centuries.

Going back to Milieu 0 or some time during the Long Night should be perfectly adequate.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

and then you post something like this.

well ... I tried.

Wooden ships are powered by beer.

rum.