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Who needs stewards anyway?

My Copy of CT clearly says Cr2000 per occupied stateroom.

Having a steward costs you:
(1) a stateroom
(2) the salary of the Steward (which is KCr3, not 4, oops)
(3) the life support on that stateroom (which a MP in it would would pay for)
(4) the KCr6 after LS of a MP in that steward's stateroom

So really, HP's are a loss if you have less than 5. And that's not even accounting for the ship and payment costs.
 
My Copy of CT clearly says Cr2000 per occupied stateroom.

Having a steward costs you:
(1) a stateroom
(2) the salary of the Steward (which is KCr3, not 4, oops)
(3) the life support on that stateroom (which a MP in it would would pay for)
(4) the KCr6 after LS of a MP in that steward's stateroom

So really, HP's are a loss if you have less than 5. And that's not even accounting for the ship and payment costs.

...and are you factoring:

(5) the revenue loss of 1ton of cargo capacity per (minimum KCr1)

(6) the expense of the stateroom

Hauling mid-pax means more cargo space in the bargain.

So a mid-pax actually earns you KCr8 (ticket) - KCr2 (ls) = KCr6 in 4tons per trip (KCr1.5/ton) (not factoring the stateroom cost).

While 8 high-pax (maximized) earns you KCr80 (tickets) - KCr8 (freight loss to baggage) -KCr16 (ls) -KCr3.5 (steward salary and ls) = KCr52.5 in 44tons per trip (~ KCr1.19/ton) (not factoring the stateroom cost).

Mid-pax always earns you more in CT. One reason I suspect the rules were changed to require a Steward for them after CT, to more balance the rates. I haven't run the Mongoose Traveller numbers yet, on my list of things to do (interrupted).

On the question of the bumping of mid-pax, I've always looked at it as a mid-pax ticket is a standby ticket. You gamble the ship won't fill up with high-pax before it's scheduled to leave. Of course given the above what free-trader is going to sell high-pax tickets?

For further comparison:

Low-pax clears even more than mid-pax at KCr1.8 per trip per ton (not factoring the lowberth cost) but it's hard to fill a trader with them.

Freight is the poorest showing at the flat KCr1 per trip per ton (no cargo hold cost!), but it's (almost) always there and never tries to hijack your ship :D (low-pax are also unlikely to attempt a hijacking ;) ).

Gotta run...
 
On the question of the bumping of mid-pax, I've always looked at it as a mid-pax ticket is a standby ticket. You gamble the ship won't fill up with high-pax before it's scheduled to leave. Of course given the above what free-trader is going to sell high-pax tickets?
I'm not saying that this isn't a possible interpretation. I'm simply suggesting another interpretation. One that reconciles per-jump costs with per-parsec costs:

A Mid Passage isn't a ticket, it's a ticket voucher. By Imperial edict it entitles you to exchange it for a ticket to a single stateroom for one jump. If that ticket is for a jump-1 trip, the liner can redeem it for Cr3,500 (Or whatever the ticket actually cost). If it's for a jump-2 trip, the company can redeem it for Cr7,000. If it's for a jump-3 trip, the company can redeem it for Cr10,500. By tradition, if you want more than Cr8,000 for the ticket, you'd better be prepared to prove to an auditor that this is a fair price. So a Free Trader (known for its flexible attitude to ticket costs) can cash it in for Cr8,000, regardeless of the length of the jump.

In the same way, a High Passage is a likewise a ticket voucher. But it is (or was intended as in the original legislation) a voucher issued to important Imperial officials. People who needed to get where they're giong fast and with a minimum delay. So by the same Imperial edict, holders of these "Priority Passage Vouchers" can exchange them for a ticket to a first class single stateroom, carry a decent amount of baggage along AND can preempt any stateroom that isn't occupied by another holder of a PPV.

In this way, you can retcon in both per-parsec ticket costs and double occupancy[*] (= "Economy passage") without losing the mustering out benefit type High, Middle and Low Passage.


[*] They just don't issue vouchers for economy passage.


Hans
 
Like most things....the rich rarely have to pay their own way.

Today's modern Airlines generally do not make their living off of their first-class passengers. I recall reading somewhere (don't have a reference) that they barely pay for themselves in costs, after all the airport lounges, fewer seats per FC vs coach area, additional baggage allowances, the need for additional stews ('scuse; flight attendants) to service the FC area, the additional and usually "free" upgraded food and beverage services, etc, etc.

The Middle passages (full fare business coach) are what pays for the flight. You offer first class so the executives making the fly decisions choose your airline for their lackeys to fly at full fare coach.

Low passages (vacationing individuals and families who buy tickets off Travelocity and Orbitz) are the ones that get bumped in this version of reality, however.
 
I don't mind accepting Book 2 as evidence of how things work in the OTU, but I most certainly do not accept that it's the only valid evidence. What edition, btw.? TTB specifically states that it's each occupied stateroom that cost life support; it also makes it clear that the cost is actually per warm body, as double occupancy is permitted, but requires twice the LS cost.

Be that as it may, it's hard enough to justify life support costs when there are people around to eat caviare and pâté de fois gras, drink champagne, breathe specially imported jasmine-scented mountain air and bathe in asses' milk; to charge Cr2000 with no one actually consuming consumables is, IMO, patently... um... not plausible.
The 1977 edition (of course) if it was changed in the later editions. I know LS is only charged for occupied staterooms for Merchant Prince. I would have to find a later edition of LBB2 to be sure if it changed in LBB2 but I thought it was one of the rules that slipped through to the later editions. It is a varied rule (as I said earlier) so the ref. can chose his rule to suit his needs. The difference changes the profit point but you still wind up against the passenger generation table and most merchants finding that having a steward and taking high passengers beats having empty staterooms because the number of middle passages is just too darn low.

The nature of Life Support has always been puzzle. If it is primarily food than the Imperial Navy should be full of lard tubs who eat delicacies all the time (the life support cost is the same for a lowly squid as it is for the Emperor so they should be eating the same food). We can probably add some odd things into life support for crews on small vessels like laundry but surely a 400,000 ton dreadnought with a crew of thousands has a shipboard laundry. Oxygen surely cannot be so expensive that it alone makes food a minimal part of the cost but as has been often pointed out 200CR/day is awfully expensive food. Maybe starships have extreme health and safety rules and most of the cost is the sewage fee for pumping out the toilets (although with vacuum outside I wonder why captains wouldn't skimp on the fee. maybe cleaning off the hull once after flying through someone else's sewage cloud makes the CR2000 fee seem reasonable although there is always the fusion drive. ). A poorly explained rule which doesn't give us much info about what is covered by LS.

This might explain why there are two rules, if LS is consumables like caviar and asses milk then unoccupied staterooms should be free while if LS is consumables like heat and jasmine-scented mountain air then staterooms without occupants would have a LS cost. Unless your staterooms are equipped with air-tight doors and have bulkheads some LS cost will be incurred by unoccupied staterooms they share an environment with occupied staterooms (and a portion of stateroom space is allocated to common areas which will have a LS cost even if unoccupied staterooms are sealed off). LS can be divided into two categories, those which are incident to living space and those which are incident to living persons. Things like air filtration, heat, exterminators will cost money on a living space basis while things like food and laundry will cost money on a living person basis. The LS rule is no doubt a combination of the two and CR2000 (per occupant or per stateroom) is a mechanism which produces a result of cost/stateroom-trip which works if the rule is not stretched out of shape (the liner with 800 mid passengers, a 13 person crew of whom 7 are medics and not a single steward is an example of stretching the rules out of shape) or looked at too closely.
What I want are reasonable, self-consistent rules that don't impose senseless arbitrary restrictions. Or rather, I want a reasonable, self-consistent underlying worldview. I've nothing against simplified rules for ease of play as such. What I object to is assuming that they are exact, literal representations of "reality" rather than simplifications.
The following is purely my own feeling and there is nothing cannnonical to support them. take it for whatever you feel it is worth.

When trying to decode the "reality' which lies beneath the passage rules as written, the starting point, for a Traveler universe, is that there are small spaceships which travel between stars and make money carrying passengers. Unless that reality is changed, whatever contradicts that reality, no matter how reasonable it is, cannot be true in a Traveler universe. Small merchants carrying passengers profitably do unquestionably exist so any interpretation of the other rules must be consistent with this reality. If you have a problem with unreasonable, inconsistent rules which impose senseless arbitrary restrictions I suggest you change the nature of the universe (and not try to board a commercial airplane in the US, there is nothing reasonable about having to take off your shoes to fly). Hans, since I made that mistake last time, let me specify that this is not addressed to your argument against stewards. If it is addressed to you specifically it is only to the extent of warning you that insisting too much on reasonableness and consistency from the rules can result in changing the nature of the game universe.

The passage rules are not so much based upon consistency as it is upon balance. The rules are not oriented towards the needs of general non-player people seeking passage but upon what a starship captain would need to make it worthwhile to carry passengers balanced with what players without ships can afford. This works fine in a universe with small starships and scarce intersetellar travel. How else does one explain why on average one can find 9 persons seeking passage offworld from a planet with a population of 100 while can only find an average of 35 from a world of 90,000,000,000? A passage costs as much as it does not because that the utility value to the passenger seeking passage but because that is the amount of money a captain would need to make a reasonable profit carrying passengers. The passenger table is designed not to model passengers seeking passage but to provide system allowing a starship captain to make a reasonable amount of money carrying passengers. The model the rules are based upon is starship economics, with a nod to passenger's requirements but more upon starship economics. Since starship economics is the dominent basis for the model other aspects of the worldview (universeview?) are underweighed. These rules can be revised to measure the other aspects of the reality of starship travel if a different balance between passenger reality and starship captain reality is desired. The rules should probably be modified if the universe (like the OTU) is not a small ship/scarce interstellar travel universe.

Modifying the rules will have an effect on the economics of running small starships and this should be carefully considered if the economics of operating a small merchant ship is a significant part of your campaign. We can change the rules for starship passage to a model of that of tramp steamers but it would have an effect on the universe. Tramp steamer fare was a fraction of liner fare, but the rest of starship economics means that if fare is less than CR6,000 it would be more profitable to convert the stateroom to cargo and not pay the life support so tramp starship fare would have to remain the same but liner fare would have to increase to a minimum of CR20,000 and probably closer to CR40,000 which would be tough on players without starships. This would make liners extremely profitable and greedy players would convert their cargo bays to staterooms and hire stewards to take luxury passengers, ugh.
 
A cross-section of the part of society that can afford to pay the equivalent of 50,000 dollars for a simple round trip to a neighboring world.

I see no reason to suppose that a starship passenger on a tramp merchant will NEED any more service than any passenger on a South Sea tramp steamer did.

Why would that be a concern? Odds are they'll never interact with any of those poor abused passengers ever again. And if they might, how does that concern work out in real life? Is airport security unfailingly polite to the passengers they process? After all, they have to live on the same planet.
I link these together because they deserve to be linked. If a passage costs $25,000 equivalent then the passengers will be the elite and expect quality service and be willing to pay a premium for it. And one person who can no doubt afford to pay $50,000 for 2 passages if he can afford to pay $25,000 for one brings his valet along to provide service during the trip . This becomes a fairly standard practice after a while until some genius captain realizes that his passengers are willing to pay a premium for service and hires a steward and charges a 25% premium for a passage with steward services. This becomes the standard passage, even for tramp ships, for pople who can afford to travel between the stars and the presumption becomes that even tramp starships have stewards. But that describes the situation as it is.

This also makes the idea of customer complaints more to be feared by starship captains. These people are going to be movers and shakers and having them dissatisfied with a ship can make things tough for the ship. Picture one of Dave Thompson's (the richest man in Canada, runs/owns a conglomerate which as a sideline has a half interest in Reuters) children complaining to deal old dad about how poorly he was treated on a ship and how much trouble that could cause for the captain. We're not talking about just having to deal with the starport authorities here, we're talking about irritating the people who decide whether or not you get cargo. If someone like that is willing to pay for premium service then I say give it to him and smile while you take his money. And since the most common population level is 5, these people are going to be big fish in some pretty small pounds, indeed you might just have made an enemy of the only source of cargo on the planet.
 
Dan: the 8k loss on the MP from the stateroom covers the lost cargo space (by Cr500/ton) for the steward's room, but no, I forgot the KCr1 for the cargo space for each HP...

So... if we presume the 100kg baggage is in-room, and the 1 ton is actually 1Td... rather than 1000kg...

Ok: the steward costs KCr7/mo (LS+salary), and prevents a MP on each jump losing 2(KCr8-KCr2 ls)=KCr12, that is KCr19/mo in losses per steward.

MP generate KCr12/mo/SR single occupancy.

HP is KCr 10, which becomes KCr9 after the cargo space, and KCr7 after the LS, and we double that for KCr14/mo, and subtract the MP KCr12, that's KCr2/mo above, so 9.5HP per steward are needed to break even.

If we instead assume it's 1000kg, in 0.1Td, that's only KCr0.1, so it's KCr2.9 per HP per mo, or 6.6 pass per steward for breakeven; 6 is a loss, 7 a profit. Per steward. Max is 8 per steward, in which case it's about KCr4.1 profit to carry 8HP and a Steward instead of 9MP. (7HP+Steward is about KCr1.2 more than 8MP)

Both are still better than cargo, per jump, by about 50%.
 
My main point

I seem to, once again, be making the mistake of trying to respond to everything that I feel warrants a response, instead of concentrating on the main argument.

There's one of my points that is consistently overlooked even though I've tried to make it several times. It is this: My thesis is that free traders are not the conveyance of choice for the kind of people who willingly pay for high passage -- better food, better service, better facilities, separate accomodation from the riff-raff. Thus, any high passenger who is willing to travel by free trader has other reasons for doing so (It's the only kind of ship that touches this world, it's the first ship that will be leaving and someone's in a hurry, going by regular liner would leave a paper trail, etc.) Whatever the motive, I submit that the presence or absence of a trained steward aboard is unlikely to affect it. (That's not to say that the quality of service might not tip the scales between choosing to go by one free trader and another that just happens to be going to the same destination at roughly the same time.)

I don't think such passengers are going to complain to the SPA about the lack of service, because I don't think they'd get much sympathy. Travel agents are not going to refrain from referring excess high passengers to a free trader because it doesn't have an adequate number of qualified stewards. They're excess! Otherwise he wouldn't be referring them to a free trader in the first place, even if it was crawling with stewards. If he doesn't refer them, he doesn't get paid.

If he's smart, he'll point out to the prospective passenger that this is a free trader and that service may not be up to the usual standards (or accomodation and facilities either). And if he's not a complete numbskull, the prospective passenger is going to reply "Well, DUH!"



Hans
 
<snip>

I don't think such passengers are going to complain to the SPA about the lack of service, because I don't think they'd get much sympathy. Travel agents are not going to refrain from referring excess high passengers to a free trader because it doesn't have an adequate number of qualified stewards. They're excess! Otherwise he wouldn't be referring them to a free trader in the first place, even if it was crawling with stewards. If he doesn't refer them, he doesn't get paid.

If he's smart, he'll point out to the prospective passenger that this is a free trader and that service may not be up to the usual standards (or accomodation and facilities either). And if he's not a complete numbskull, the prospective passenger is going to reply "Well, DUH!"

I agree with this view; passenger liners that can make money carrying passengers will garner most of that trade. The odd world destination,and people who desire a faster departure or arrival (the liner might make a circular route and the free trader might be more direct) might use the free trader's service.

Plus, having the passenger who didn't know that the level of service is not up to liner standards is a good adventure hook as well!
 
Hans, it keeps running in circles if space travel is expensive/rare.

If travel on tramp starships is inferior quality if follows that luxury travel would be more expensive which would make hauling passengers in luxury conditions more lucrative than hauling cargo and tramp starships would convert luxury liners and make more money hauling luxury passengers.


If somehow tramp starship travel is in the same cost range as luxury liner travel then the customers are going to demand similar service from the tramp starships as they do from the luxury liners.


The cargo/luxury liner concept has problems. Starships in the core game (which most players are using) are not designed to be tramp starships carrying cargo with passengers only as an afterthought. The type A Free Trader has 82 tons of cargo and 7 staterooms & 20 low berths for the steward and passengers - passengers take up over 25% (38 out of 120 tons) of the "working" tonnage designed into a Free Trader and represent a similar portion of the revenue stream, this is not the design of a cargo ship which takes on the occasional passenger.



only works if we assume cheap and abundant interstellar travel and even then we have problems.

Example: Assume that there is cheap and abundant interstellar travel and most cargo between planets is by 20KT+ bulk cargo carriers and most passages are on 1000+ passenger liners. The common PCs as traders would be scavenging on the fringes and picking up small lot cargoes, priority cargoes and odd-ball passengers and servicing the few planets which only see a starship once a year. Normal passage on liners would be far more expensive than tramp travel (CR40,000 would not be unreasonable) and fairly common. Type Y yachts would be commercially viable running charters at CR500,000/jump which would be common. The credit would be fairly cheap, a man-hour-unskilled-labor would pay around CR50. Players without starships should expect to be able to purchase passage between most planets with a maximum of a 2 day wait if they are willing to pay liner rates while poor/cheap players can probably find tramp starship passage at book rates with a 4-7 day wait. Culture will be fairly homogeneous and tech levels will have to be modified to be more closely clustered and even on primitive tech 7 worlds higher level tech items will be readily available at a moderate mark-up.
 
Traveller is a game.

The designers were heavily influenced buy the EC Tubb Dumarest novels.

Tramp traders, stewards etc are all there in the game. ;)
 
If travel on tramp starships is inferior quality if follows that luxury travel would be more expensive...
Or that high passengers on free traders are paying for something other than service.

...which would make hauling passengers in luxury conditions more lucrative than hauling cargo and tramp starships would convert luxury liners and make more money hauling luxury passengers.
I think tramp starships used to belong to regular shipping companies and got sold off when their age made them too prone to breakdowns to be reliable. They get sold off cheaply, enabling the new owner to survive on more haphazard freight and passengers than a regular ship needs. As long as the ship doesn't suffer a major breakdown, that is. Essentially, free traders bet that they can earn enough money to cover the next beakdown before it happens. Those who win that bet goes on to found fledgeling lines; those who lose go bankrupt and the bank sells off their ship to the next bunch of optimists.

If somehow tramp starship travel is in the same cost range as luxury liner travel then the customers are going to demand similar service from the tramp starships as they do from the luxury liners.
Unless they're paying for something other than the service.

The cargo/luxury liner concept has problems. Starships in the core game (which most players are using) are not designed to be tramp starships carrying cargo with passengers only as an afterthought. The type A Free Trader has 82 tons of cargo and 7 staterooms & 20 low berths for the steward and passengers - passengers take up over 25% (38 out of 120 tons) of the "working" tonnage designed into a Free Trader and represent a similar portion of the revenue stream, this is not the design of a cargo ship which takes on the occasional passenger.
Very true, it's not. Rather, it's the design of a ship that can make a living as a free trader once it is no longer employed on a regular run. We see a disproportionate number of such ship types because it's the kind of ship prospective Free Traders would buy, and most campaigns have the PCs as Free Traders and not corporate employees.

Example: Assume that there is cheap and abundant interstellar travel and most cargo between planets is by 20KT+ bulk cargo carriers and most passages are on 1000+ passenger liners. The common PCs as traders would be scavenging on the fringes and picking up small lot cargoes, priority cargoes and odd-ball passengers and servicing the few planets which only see a starship once a year.
Very well put. An excellent description.

Normal passage on liners would be far more expensive than tramp travel (CR40,000 would not be unreasonable) and fairly common.
Not so. Cr3,500-4,000 is a reasonable price for a one-way ticket to someplace one parsec away by a liner designed by the ship design rules (price will vary a little according to exactly which version of the ship design rules). Any ship that charges more risks getting undercut by a rival. If it has no rivals, it can charge more, true. But these are generic rules; they are supposed to cover generic situations.

Type Y yachts would be commercially viable running charters at CR500,000/jump which would be common. The credit would be fairly cheap, a man-hour-unskilled-labor would pay around CR50.
Average annual per capita income for a TL15 world with a Class A starport is Cr22,000, IIRC. That'd be Cr1,833/ month, Cr73/day (assuming 25 working days in a month). Call it Cr10/hour. On any world with lower TL and/or lesser starport it would be less.

Players without starships should expect to be able to purchase passage between most planets with a maximum of a 2 day wait if they are willing to pay liner rates while poor/cheap players can probably find tramp starship passage at book rates with a 4-7 day wait.
That would depend entirely on the regular number of passengers. It's quite likely true between some worlds. It's wouldn't apply between a lot of other neighboring worlds.

Culture will be fairly homogeneous and tech levels will have to be modified to be more closely clustered and even on primitive tech 7 worlds higher level tech items will be readily available at a moderate mark-up.
There are people who argue that this would be the case anyway. I say that it doesn't follow. A world's ability to import goods is related to it's ability to sell it's own products.


Hans
 
Traveller is a game.
Yes it is. But it's a game set in a universe that is supposed to resemble the real universe in most ways (with certain specific exceptions, such as jump drive and the Ancients).

When you read in a sourcebook for the 1930s that Ocean travel (second class) costs $25/day, do you take that as proof that historically the cost of a ticket from America to England varied with the weather (slow passage costs more), or do you think it means that a ticket cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $125 because five days is the average travel time? Do you take it as proof that historically every single liner charged $125 for a ticket, or do you think there were differences and fluctuations that the game simply isn't fine-grained enough to cover?

Not that I think there's anything wrong with a GM who can't be bothered with that sort of detail. Far from it. But if his players tell him they'd like to shop around for a better price, do you think it's more plausible to say "All shipping lines charge the same" or to say "I can't be bothered, $125 is the best price you can find"[*]?


[*] Or '<rolls dice> "$120 is the best price you can find and it took you a day to find it." '


Hans
 
Yes it is. But it's a game set in a universe that is supposed to resemble the real universe in most ways (with certain specific exceptions, such as jump drive and the Ancients).


Hans,

Have you forgotten that the universe described in LBB:1-3 changed? And that it changed in substantial ways?

You keep asking why people who can afford High Passage would travel aboard a scruffy tramp trader when a liner is available. The answer is that when the passage rules were written the volume of trade and numbers of ships wasn't assumed to be what they were later. The liners you presume are an option simply didn't exist.

LBB:1-3 describe a universe that is different than what came later. Certain aspects are the same, but the bits that apply to passage rates are too different to be reconciled.

I know you want to view the OTU as a seamless whole and strenuously try to make all the pieces fit together, but in this case it simply cannot be done. Passage rates and the assumptions behind them were written for the ur-OTU, not the post-LBB:5 OTU, and you cannot make them work together. GDW changed the universe but failed to change the rules.


Regards,
Bill
 
Mid-pax always earns you more in CT.

If my Free Trader/Liner has 8 High Passage staterooms and 1 Steward with his own stateroom, and I land at a port with 3 High Passages and 12 Middle Passages available, then those Mid Passages used to fill the staterooms would still pay for part of the Steward's expenses.

The 'Mid Passage Bonus Profit' (while real) only applies to ships designed to NOT take any high passages - and that leaves 'Jane' from Firefly trying to recruit 'passengers' while the Pilot/Captain takes care of business (like Trade). Good Luck with that. :)
 
Have you forgotten that the universe described in LBB:1-3 changed? And that it changed in substantial ways?

You keep asking why people who can afford High Passage would travel aboard a scruffy tramp trader when a liner is available. The answer is that when the passage rules were written the volume of trade and numbers of ships wasn't assumed to be what they were later. The liners you presume are an option simply didn't exist.
Well, if you prefer, I could reformulate my question to something like "How come people keep insisting on using the rules for the universe described in LBB1-3 when that universe has since changed profoundly?"

I just think it's more constructive to ask something like "How can we change the rules to fit better with the universe as it has evolved?"

LBB:1-3 describe a universe that is different than what came later. Certain aspects are the same, but the bits that apply to passage rates are too different to be reconciled.
I could give you an argument about that. I think my Ordinary Passage Vouchers and Priority Passage Vouchers does a pretty good job, really.

I know you want to view the OTU as a seamless whole and strenuously try to make all the pieces fit together, but in this case it simply cannot be done. Passage rates and the assumptions behind them were written for the ur-OTU, not the post-LBB:5 OTU, and you cannot make them work together. GDW changed the universe but failed to change the rules.
Is that any reason not to try to come up with rules of our own that does work? Though at the moment I'm really just trying to come to grips with the underlying "reality". What about the rules reflect a literal interpretation of "reality" and what about them are game artifacts? Improving the rules would come later.


Hans
 
Well, if you prefer, I could reformulate my question to something like "How come people keep insisting on using the rules for the universe described in LBB1-3 when that universe has since changed profoundly?"


Hans,

That's much better.

I think my Ordinary Passage Vouchers and Priority Passage Vouchers does a pretty good job, really.

They do.

Is that any reason not to try to come up with rules of our own that does work?

No it isn't. But we need not keep flogging the greasy spot that used to be the dead horse either.

Though at the moment I'm really just trying to come to grips with the underlying "reality". What about the rules reflect a literal interpretation of "reality" and what about them are game artifacts? Improving the rules would come later.

With regards to passage rules there are two underlying "realities" here, the one from LBB:1-3 and the one from everything else. You can only examine the passage rules within their own reality. Examining them outside of the strictures of of LBB:1-3 is both needlessly confusing and ultimately worthless.


Regards,
Bill
 
With regards to passage rules there are two underlying "realities" here, the one from LBB:1-3 and the one from everything else. You can only examine the passage rules within their own reality. Examining them outside of the strictures of of LBB:1-3 is both needlessly confusing and ultimately worthless.
I disagree. It's only confusing if we forget to take the difference ito account, and the two realities are not completely disparate. After all, one grew from the other. To discard everything from the original rules sight unseen would be wasteful.

For example, even if we decided that free traders might not have as rigid a standard for number and quality of stewards as liners do, I'd still think that using the 1 steward per 8 high passengers rule when designing a free trader and doing deckplans for it was the way to go. Because I don't think any ship would ever be designed to be a free trader. so even if a captain decided to dispense with the services of a steward, the stateroom that was freed up by this wouldn't magically jump from the crew side of the armored bulkheads to the passenger side.


Hans
 
Works for me ;-)

...The 'Mid Passage Bonus Profit' (while real) only applies to ships designed to NOT take any high passages...

Quite, and precisely :)

...and that leaves 'Jane' from Firefly trying to recruit 'passengers' while the Pilot/Captain takes care of business (like Trade). Good Luck with that. :)


Can you imagine, Jane in the port bazaar bar "recruiting" passengers...

Jane "Which of you gorram gits wants to book a lift to the next filthy backwater cesspool on Serenity? Come on <pulls pistol, checks charge, holsters it with a flourish> I ain't got all day and I still got to buy some grub and booze for the trip."

Most of the bar patrons rush for the exits when the stranger pulled the gun. All that are left is one old man passed out at a table and a young couple trying to look inconspicuous in the back.

"Three? That's more than last time, it'll do. You two in the back, haul the old git to pad 16 and tell the Cap'n you're the only pax I found and pay him. I got shopping to do. If I have to come looking for you... "

The young couple scamble to carry the old man out figuring such an invite is as good as any and travelling on an old tramp freighter is as good a way as any to avoid the attention they're running from, they don't notice the old man grin...

(...and so, if you didn't clue in, Serenity adds Book, Simon, and River to the roster :) )
 
Not so. Cr3,500-4,000 is a reasonable price for a one-way ticket to someplace one parsec away by a liner designed by the ship design rules (price will vary a little according to exactly which version of the ship design rules). Any ship that charges more risks getting undercut by a rival. If it has no rivals, it can charge more, true. But these are generic rules; they are supposed to cover generic situations.
this would seem at first to be the least game breaking change to model the universe as you see it. To make this balance though you would have to lower the LS cost and/or allow double occupancy. The CR2000 LS cost really skews the economics of spaceflight. If the LS rate is unchanged and single occupancy is used at CR 4000 & no steward service a liner would generate CR1000/ton/month devoted to staterooms - a stateroom and 4 tons of hull costs CR700,000 minimum which means without counting the cost of anything besides the stateroom it would take a liner company over 58 years (700 months) to make back the capital investment on a liner without changing LS rate or allowing double occupancy. Keeping LS the same and allowing double occupancy would halve that, but that's still 29 years to recoup the capital expense and we haven't even accounted for anything beyond the stateroom. For comparison a bank financing a ship expects to recover the capital it has put into a financed ship in 16 years. Some companies might be willing to make this long an investment but I think you'd be better to juggle the math so that the entire ship capital expense can be paid off in 20 years or less.

But how could you justify the extortionate rate for tramp passage, and if tramps lowered their rates it would be more profitable to rip out the staterooms and haul freight, and hauling freight (non-speculative) would lower the income of the Free Trader. Nothing game breaking, and there is no lack of justification for lowering LS costs and allowing passenger double occupancy. I think you'd be better off creating a separate passenger category for tramp passengers and tramp starships could take middle single occupancy and double occupancy tramp passengers.


It's interesting how well the design of the Free Trader fills it's intended role, and a tribute to it's versatility that it is suitable for other roles (like the tramp starship). If we ignore book 7 and speculative trade (too variable) the Free Trader can nearly always run with full staterooms (mixed high and mid, too many low berths but they'
re cheap) and 70+ tons of cargo running between pop 6 planets and can more often than not make a profit running to planets with pop 4. Make it a pure cargo hauler and pop 8 is the lower limit for reliably profitable runs. Of course the creation of a more 'realistic' trade system changed all that but it is nifty how well the Free Trader design balanced form and function.
 
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