mike wightman
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If that had been done we would still be stuck with a setting that stops with Hard Times...
Why do you hate the Virus
- Thread starter Adam Dray
- Start date
Large chunks of TNE mechanics were, to me, clearly attempts to prepare to integrate 2300 into the House Engine. I chalked it up to that; then again, I didn't use the E/CTSB in 2300, either.
especially the opening paragraphs of FF&S Ch. 12
FF&S1 said:
Given also prior canon on the SSMM, and MT having them active and potent politically within at least two of the rebellion safes, and the prior canon on limb regrowth, the only viable reasons to have cyber are either allergies to the process of regrowth, or desire of functions not practical with meat.
Also note that that chapter also mentions virus making meat puppets of guys with TL 15+ implant computers. (p 84)
Guys with lesser augments can apparently carry virus "spore code"...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree with you, and I never particularly liked the way T2300 morphed its core worlds into cyberpunk settings.
The stuff suggested in the 2300 core rules, bioengineered and cyber enhanced provolutionists sounded like a much better way of doing things. The pentapod offered some pretty creepy bio-engineering potential too - who didn't have a pentapod 'god' experiment with human form bullets...
The stuff suggested in the 2300 core rules, bioengineered and cyber enhanced provolutionists sounded like a much better way of doing things. The pentapod offered some pretty creepy bio-engineering potential too - who didn't have a pentapod 'god' experiment with human form bullets...
I think that the issue with the virus wasn't that it stretched credibility. It was just naff.
No, for me, it stretched verisimilitude well past the breaking point. If they had explained it with a psionic focus, it would have been far easier.
I've always like Virus. Would be hypocritical, if i didn't on some level.
AotI explains why 3I is still standing after 1000 years. IMO in the 1980s, it was a mediocre government framework. But that's another topic.
I think development on GDWs part needed more products with a stable consistent Virus theme. And for that matter more Rebellion products with a bit more vision than Rebellion Sourcebook. At GDW, the assigned game designer called the shots, as long as it didn't get vetoed. They we're fully invested in creating a homogeneous system like GURPS. Hence, everything new was an experiment.
As others mentioned, Virus is easily misunderstood. Unlike the ST Borg and the Berserker books, Virus descriptions we're not repetitive and clear enough.
Perfecting Virus in 1248 was a huge mistake, IMO. It should never reached super machine nirvana. That was the point. It was the flawed manipulation of a race. Uplifting gone wrong. IMTU, I solve that definition problem. If a ref wants a successful Virus campaign they cannot be "all powerful" and it cannot magically transmit itself. That makes it slower, more terrifying, and the players more useful.
So, the guys that hated it wrote the fix in 1248. That makes no sense. The COTI concept for those buying into the 1248 forum was participation in the outcome. And a few bones we're tossed to various individual campaigns, I suppose. On a positive note, it was great to see a development effort like 1248. It was a step in the right direction.
IMTU, I solve that definition problem. If a ref wants a successful Virus campaign then the Aware cannot be "all powerful" and it cannot magically transmit itself. That makes it slower, more terrifying, and the players more useful. Then non techs will see Virus problems everywhere, and the Regency will make more sense.
I also had a really, really hard time with the whole Empress Wave thing that was going to destroy the Zhodani Consulate by wiping out all the psionic nobles, and then doing strange and unusual things to the Imperium. I mean, come on, how far out there into weird Space Opera land are you going to take this thing? I am not sure which rocket scientist came up with that and Virus to explain their f***ing up of a really great universe, but really?
"Baddies from the Core" was the DJP version, and it at least has the benefit of being somewhat believeable. With the Empress Wave/Virus you might as well have a level 18 Mage cast some spell that wipes out the world for all the belief you can have in it. D&D meets Traveller!
If they (GDW) had at least let DJP have a little more control, and put out more product then it might have turned around and Traveller might have survived.
"Baddies from the Core" was the DJP version, and it at least has the benefit of being somewhat believeable. With the Empress Wave/Virus you might as well have a level 18 Mage cast some spell that wipes out the world for all the belief you can have in it. D&D meets Traveller!
If they (GDW) had at least let DJP have a little more control, and put out more product then it might have turned around and Traveller might have survived.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
MTU explanation of the Empress Wave - short version.
Grandfather didn't discover jump drive. He discovered a way to generate a 'quantum membrane' that would allow access to the higher dimensions where psionic technology (and entities) resides.
The device propagated a light speed wave that allowed jump drives to access jump dimensions - obviously there was a lead time.
Eventually Grandfather's wave would get to a psionic race far across the galaxy who responded by detonating a device of their own - which allows for even greater contact between the metaconscious entities residing beyond/within jump dimensions.
As it passes it has the unfortunate effects that are described.
Grandfather didn't discover jump drive. He discovered a way to generate a 'quantum membrane' that would allow access to the higher dimensions where psionic technology (and entities) resides.
The device propagated a light speed wave that allowed jump drives to access jump dimensions - obviously there was a lead time.
Eventually Grandfather's wave would get to a psionic race far across the galaxy who responded by detonating a device of their own - which allows for even greater contact between the metaconscious entities residing beyond/within jump dimensions.
As it passes it has the unfortunate effects that are described.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I rationalised it by tying it to the synaptic circuitry used in higher TL computers and robot brains - probably needed to make them the equivalent of what we would consider a quantum computer using neural network structures.
I just assumed that Virus could reconfigure the synaptic circuitry to model the 'neural network' of the modified cymberline entity.
:rant:I have a sort of chip on my shoulder about the Terrans. Anything that supports Terra for Terrans or "Terran supremacy" is good in in my book. Call me a speciesist (?), guilty as charged. Must be growing up in and living in Chicago. So...
I LIKE Rebellion, because the Solomani get Terra back. That the Solomani are jackbooted thugs that whomp on poor Vegans, oh well.
I LIKE TNE and Virus because it gave me Children of Earth, a story that amongst other things, insures that Terra remains for Terrans. Now that Children of Earth is decanonized, I was not so happy.
I LIKE 1248 because there is a Terran Confederation free (relatively) of Virus. And hey the Solomani Hypothesis went Trailing. Good. Let the Hivers deal with that.
As long as Terra remains free, let the universe burn.
That and "Go My Little Ponies of Death!":devil:
I LIKE Rebellion, because the Solomani get Terra back. That the Solomani are jackbooted thugs that whomp on poor Vegans, oh well.
I LIKE TNE and Virus because it gave me Children of Earth, a story that amongst other things, insures that Terra remains for Terrans. Now that Children of Earth is decanonized, I was not so happy.
I LIKE 1248 because there is a Terran Confederation free (relatively) of Virus. And hey the Solomani Hypothesis went Trailing. Good. Let the Hivers deal with that.
As long as Terra remains free, let the universe burn.
That and "Go My Little Ponies of Death!":devil:
And yet I've not seen you weigh in on the "How do we improve T5 thread", or in as much as I've read of it. Because I touch on this very aspect of the old Game-verse-Setting issue, and to me your diatribe here really speaks to that.
Empress Wave was a weird trip alright. The energy it would have taken is mind boggling. "Let's destroy our sun and send out a psionic help call...warning...or whatever. Look I'm empress of the galaxy and I'll do whatever" Why the Zho would have been bothered is another question. The disturbance in the Force is a bit too out there. MTU just made it a bump in the psionic road of life.
Traveller originated as rules. Then an exemplar setting was added. And then, it came to be mostly THE setting... Then, when the rules changed, the setting stayed mostly recognizable...and now, Mongoose is insisting it's only the rules tropes, not even the rules.
My big solution is just to stick around in the CT era and not worry about it. Ignorance is bliss.
Murph; just check out the T5 section
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
I'm not sure of Wil's point, but with Mongoose the OTU setting is only a subset of their rules for Traveller. That there are rules in their core book which are decidedly NOT what the OTU is modeling. That MgT widens the rules to make room for other science fiction tropes. Like shields and tachyon guns, Star Wars and Star Trek and Babylon 5 etc.
Previously, the OTU showcased the entire ruleset. With Mongoose Traveller, the OTU is only using some of the rules.
That's a large part of it, but also Matthew's frequent statements in the blog in 2008 that "there is no Official Traveller Universe."
I've just scoured the Traveller Wiki for info on Virus. I see that TNE happened between 1992-1995 (about the time I dropped the game because of real life stuff). The article on virus is particular about how it thrived, but not all of what it did other than "scour life".
Is there a source book that's good for the background material? Is it available on Driviethru via PDF?
I'm kind of curious about it now because I totally skipped this portion of Traveller, and never bought one book from it.
Is there a source book that's good for the background material? Is it available on Driviethru via PDF?
I'm kind of curious about it now because I totally skipped this portion of Traveller, and never bought one book from it.
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