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Why do you hate the Virus

The Regency had so much going on why Norris. The democratic reform should have sent it into financial spiral and lead to widespread corruption.

IMTU, I chose to keep Avery at Usdiki to lead the 4th Imperium. The 1248 civil war should not have taken place. Its not enough time to go from terrified of the borders to civil war. That generation would still be lingering.

Norris, Avery, etc should have been declaring themselves Emperor at some earlier point.
 
This is fricking brilliant, and such a source of inspiration. If GDW had done this, they might have survived.

One of the other big things I hated was how suddenly, and with no apparent difficulty the Vargr (!) for Pete's sake, were able to batter down the system defense forces of an entire sector, presumably one that had been fighting them for decades if not centuries, and take over so many worlds. I am not talking Imperial Fleets I am speaking about the system defense units of Dumptruck's world. The whole thing stretched my limits of disbelief far beyond what they would accept. The Vargr were always the comic opera Mussolini's of the Traveller universe, and once you understood the pack mentality they were easily beatable. Also Strephon once he got to Usikidi should have his code to command the fleets, so unless the fleet commanders and all the officers were totally disloyal and such they should have snapped to attention, said "Yes Sir", and whipped the various factions. Same thing with the Aslans, you have colony fleets showing up, so what the Imperial commander on the scene does is blow away the first couple of "squadrons", and then challenge them to a duel. Settle them on the Vargr frontier, and send them off to steal Vargr colonies. There was too much implausable crap that made the 3I out of wet tissue paper which was too hard to swallow, and then Nielsen added the Virus and Empress Wave which was even worse.

Ah. You're looking for something like Bill's "Wounded Colossus".

http://www.users.qwest.net/~n2s/traveller/Wounded-Colossus.html
 
There are so may misconceptions about the Vargr in your post that I can see why you thought the scenario unlikely ;) :CoW: (no offence intended - I wish there was a tongue in cheek emoticon)

Imagine for a second that instead of being played for comic relief you encounter a Vargr.

A crinos form werewolf in combat armour and state of the art weapons.

Don't forget that the 400t Vargr corsair belongs to the small ship universe, in the large ship universe the various Vargr states possessed TL14/15 battleships etc.

The Vargr were the threat that kept the Vilani Imperium focussed to coreward rather than throw their full might against an upstart minor human world with ideas of grandeur.

If there is one thing I would get rid of in Traveller it is the silly notion that the Vargr are clowns and subject to racist ridicule...
 
I disagree, in that Canon (MT etc) it shows typical Vargr ships as TL 11/12.


There are so may misconceptions about the Vargr in your post that I can see why you thought the scenario unlikely ;) :CoW: (no offence intended - I wish there was a tongue in cheek emoticon)

Imagine for a second that instead of being played for comic relief you encounter a Vargr.

A crinos form werewolf in combat armour and state of the art weapons. yes, but you counter with your own combat armor and battledress equipped troops, not saying that the Vargr are not dangerous, but with some cash you can rent one band to take on another (see scenarios in the Journal, etc).

Don't forget that the 400t Vargr corsair belongs to the small ship universe, in the large ship universe the various Vargr states possessed TL14/15 battleships etc. I'll disagree here, in that those states are large, and again based on Canon what Vargr Emperor would trust his henchman with enough charisma to go off and take on the Imperium and not attempt to set himself up as a rival

The Vargr were the threat that kept the Vilani Imperium focussed to coreward rather than throw their full might against an upstart minor human world with ideas of grandeur. Agreed, but I think that was story driven, in the sense that the Vargr raiders were a PITA and required a large number of smaller cruisers/destroyers to police sort of like Weber's Silesian Confederation

If there is one thing I would get rid of in Traveller it is the silly notion that the Vargr are clowns and subject to racist ridicule... It is not racist, I see them as the Italians of the 1930's/1940's where they wanted to play in the Bigs, but just could not get it right. They were almost as bad as the Austrio-Hungarians in WWI, for Pete's sake they had at least three different standard rifle cartridges! As well as tanks that were death-traps even by 1940 standards.
 
RE Vargr


The average Vargr stands about two or three inches over five feet, weighs about 132 lbs, and is "physically, not very impressive by human standards."

wiki.travellerrpg.com/Vargr

I am not getting a terrifying space werewolf vibe from that.
More like feral dogs. Nasty in a pack, not so scary one on one.

Sure, the Vargr can bite. So can a human, although he's not as well equipped for that. But the human can kick.
So kick dog boy's legs out from under him and then stamp on him.
Let him bite your jacket. ;)

I am not saying that a trained, fit Vargr could not be quite dangerous. Just that he's not more dangerous than a trained, fit human.


Ymmv
 
RE Vargr


The average Vargr stands about two or three inches over five feet, weighs about 132 lbs, and is "physically, not very impressive by human standards."

wiki.travellerrpg.com/Vargr

I am not getting a terrifying space werewolf vibe from that.
More like feral dogs. Nasty in a pack, not so scary one on one.

Sure, the Vargr can bite. So can a human, although he's not as well equipped for that. But the human can kick.
So kick dog boy's legs out from under him and then stamp on him.
Let him bite your jacket. ;)

I am not saying that a trained, fit Vargr could not be quite dangerous. Just that he's not more dangerous than a trained, fit human.


Ymmv
Try taking on an angry german shepherd barehanded - you will be ripped to pieces, despite your ninja training. Moreso if it is a trained police dog.
 
Pretty much furries.

Starship technology may be the minimal required to work, and a Vargr (re)built starship probably is an agglomeration of such ship systems stuck together, rather than being part of an overriding design concept. Except for the prime directive that the ship is supposed to be able to go.
 
I disagree, in that Canon (MT etc) it shows typical Vargr ships as TL 11/12.
And typical Imperial ships are not any better according to CT sources. We only have S9 for IN ships, and no similar supplement for any other state. And yet the FFW board game clearly shows Vargr and Zhodani capital ships.


I'll disagree here, in that those states are large, and again based on Canon what Vargr Emperor would trust his henchman with enough charisma to go off and take on the Imperium and not attempt to set himself up as a rival
Canon, in the form of the CT alien module, is pretty clear on this. Stable Vargr states exist. The ruler of such a state is the one who orders the invasion of the Imperium and grows in charisma due to the success of the venture (see FFW)

Agreed, but I think that was story driven, in the sense that the Vargr raiders were a PITA and required a large number of smaller cruisers/destroyers to police sort of like Weber's Silesian Confederation
The Vargr at the time had a higher TL than the Vilani Imperium...
 
Try taking on an angry german shepherd barehanded - you will be ripped to pieces, despite your ninja training. Moreso if it is a trained police dog.

Unless you deploy a decoy squirrel first.
(sorry, I recently watched 'UP' and couldn't resist ... 'squirrel' ...



[this message brought to you by ADD :)]
 
Unless you deploy a decoy squirrel first.
(sorry, I recently watched 'UP' and couldn't resist ... 'squirrel' ...



[this message brought to you by ADD :)]

Or if you manage to kick the throat or collarbones at just the right time. This tends, however, to be permanently disabling for the dog, if it survives. Do it wrong, however....
 
Even assuming that the Vargr had such a radically unstable society that they couldnt manage to get have lasting institutions (which, iirc is not the case. the pecking order is the changing, but the spacers union still exists. a famous admiral may take the place of the president or king or emperor, but there still exists the fleet and the government.), what is stopping the Vargr from having large-scale infrastructure?

Unless every new king goes around and torches every shipyard in a victory party, what is stopping the new king from just going and telling everyone "hey, all those old capital ships the old dude had in production? they're mine"?

If he takes over the payments for the ships, who cares who he is from the shipbuilders POV?


I personally think that the Vargr are very much capable of maintaining capital fleets (even if they may be secondhand from the previous fleet that was made up), and that either the men commanding the fleets would try to beat up the wounded Imperium to raise their status (plus looting is fun), or the Vargr PPB would command them to attack if they could to raise their own status (calling shots like that and getting them done can be just as impressive a feat as actually fighting the war.)


TBH, the Vargr seem to be what I would envision of humans, given the limits of the OTU. General human habits and Vargr society seems to align much better then General human habits and the leadership of the Imperium. IMO at least.
 
I had to go deal with a guy who had committed several armed robberies, and when my partner and I saw him in the Comal County jail, he looked like Frankensteins monster. I asked him what had happened, and he told me. I had to excuse myself to laugh. He was committing another robbery, when the police showed up (including a police dog), he ran, then because he was up on heroin and cocaine, decided to try and bite the police dog.

The re-attached his ear, sewed up his lip, re-attached the side of his nose, re-attached his scalp, and sewed the holes in his cheeks. The moral of this story is: "Don't try and bite the police dog, it will win."


Or if you manage to kick the throat or collarbones at just the right time. This tends, however, to be permanently disabling for the dog, if it survives. Do it wrong, however....
 
Actually, I think there are similarities with the modern African countries where you have the rotating dictator de jour. No, the shipyard is not torched, but perhaps not maintained and everything gets a little worse each change of government....

Even assuming that the Vargr had such a radically unstable society that they couldnt manage to get have lasting institutions (which, iirc is not the case. the pecking order is the changing, but the spacers union still exists. a famous admiral may take the place of the president or king or emperor, but there still exists the fleet and the government.), what is stopping the Vargr from having large-scale infrastructure?

Unless every new king goes around and torches every shipyard in a victory party, what is stopping the new king from just going and telling everyone "hey, all those old capital ships the old dude had in production? they're mine"?

If he takes over the payments for the ships, who cares who he is from the shipbuilders POV?


I personally think that the Vargr are very much capable of maintaining capital fleets (even if they may be secondhand from the previous fleet that was made up), and that either the men commanding the fleets would try to beat up the wounded Imperium to raise their status (plus looting is fun), or the Vargr PPB would command them to attack if they could to raise their own status (calling shots like that and getting them done can be just as impressive a feat as actually fighting the war.)


TBH, the Vargr seem to be what I would envision of humans, given the limits of the OTU. General human habits and Vargr society seems to align much better then General human habits and the leadership of the Imperium. IMO at least.
 
The Regency had so much going on why Norris.

Norris' biggest cult of personality was at GDW or maybe DGP. I don't know which. At some point, he became this guy who could do no wrong.

The problems are the Spinward Marches make a lot more sense if you figure that Norris does make a mistake - he initially supports Lucan. There's frankly no reason why Norris wouldn't, except for Norris' Plot Armor; Norris liked Strephon quite a bit, there's little reason to believe that Norris would be well-inclined towards Strephon's assassin, especially since Dulinor didn't manage to cement his authority and Lucan got named Emperor instead. Once Lucan is actually sitting the Iridium Throne, Norris would be (as an Imperial noble) conditioned to accept the guy as Emperor.

Norris would go along with Lucan at first. Perhaps as the civil war grinds initially and Lucan needs more fleets, he orders Norris to yield certain worlds to the Zhodani as a bribe for peace then withdraws a lot of Norris' fleets to use against Dulinor (because of the transit times these fleets would not tip the balance against Dulinor). The Zhodani don't really need the worlds but accept them because they know that turning them down would be more suspicious to the Imperium than accepting them. Even when Lucan strips the Corridor Fleet, Norris would probably still go along (but with increasing misgivings), perhaps Norris would further stretch his situation by assigning his some of his remaining fleets to patrol Corridor.

Only when Lucan makes his second or third demand for Norris to cough up ships would Norris decide his high-sounding but ultimately meaningless declaration of "being loyal to the Imperium but not any one leader." By this time, Norris doesn't have enough ships to deal with all of the problems with the Ihatei, the Vargr, and he's probably been skirmishing with the Restored Vilani Empire (because Norris wants to keep communications open with Capital) and some with Dulinor (Dulinor is across the Rift, yes, but both sides are probably aware of Calibration Points and use it to engage in small-scale jerkdom they really can't afford).

(In addition, given that it seems that Norris seemed to like Strephon well enough ... Norris' lack of reaction to Strephon seems very much like rampaging plot device. You'd think Norris of all people would scramble to verify if Strephon is the real thing or not and Norris' honor would demand that he follow Strephon to the end once verified.)

I still don't think he'd have implemented all democratic reforms. It just seems as the Imperium rips itself apart, the Marches would cling ever more strongly to idealized versions of the Imperium.

This is fricking brilliant, and such a source of inspiration. If GDW had done this, they might have survived.

TNE didn't kill GDW. I'm pretty sure the factors discussed by members of the GDW staff about what killed GDW would have killed it off, regardless of TNE.

One of the other big things I hated was how suddenly, and with no apparent difficulty the Vargr (!) for Pete's sake, were able to batter down the system defense forces of an entire sector, presumably one that had been fighting them for decades if not centuries, and take over so many worlds. I am not talking Imperial Fleets I am speaking about the system defense units of Dumptruck's world. The whole thing stretched my limits of disbelief far beyond what they would accept. The Vargr were always the comic opera Mussolini's of the Traveller universe, and once you understood the pack mentality they were easily beatable.

The Vargr as Mussolini ... that's a new one. I've been playing Traveller for decades and I admit that's the first time I've ever heard them described as Mussolini.

Using historical comparisons, the Vargr originally intended to fulfill the role of the Germanic tribes to the Imperium's Rome. I think in actual gameplay, the Vargr were more like the Barbary Pirates though - while in the United States we only think of when the Marines went to war and when the Europeans had finally had their fill of it and began using force to make the Barbary states stop (eg; near the end), the razzia of the pirates lasted for some centuries.

Vargr space is essentially a quagmire for the Imperium. Because of their racial tendencies, Vargr societies are difficult to conquer and govern so it's not worth it. The Imperial Navy can go in there and strike some particular Vargr state hard, but after the dust clears and Navy goes home, it's like punching a bucket of water (in fact I'd say that's where all the "raid" and "battle" results for the Marine generation come from). Nevertheless, I think it is the vigilance of the Imperial Navy along the border and periodic punitive strikes that keep the Vargr raids to a "manageable" level.

MegaTrav I think did some serious damage to Traveller (I'd argue, in some ways even worse than TNE), particularly in introducing this idea that every single starship in the Imperium, right down to the smallest pinnance, is TL15. I've had a strong impression that system navies and so on actually don't run TL15. They either buy higher-tech than their worlds can natively support and have to depend on maintenance and spare parts from higher-tech places (a policy probably encouraged by the Imperium), or they run what they can support locally, which is more often TL11-12 in the case of a lot of Imperial worlds. This is similar to the Vargr. With the breakdown of trade (especially spare parts for warships being in short supply), system navies running those shiny TL14-15 (or even TL11-13) that can't support such ships locally find their shiny ships not very useful.

Vargr have no central authority, but they do communicate with each other. Each Vargr force is relatively small, but that means once word gets out at the Imperial Navy is no longer in a position to come burn your world down for raiding, the more desperate or glory-hungry Vargr are going to start taking their ships or small flotillas down to the Imperium and see if there's something to be gained from the situation. At first it is a trickle. Eventually a few pirates start returning after making some big haul in the Imperium and word gets out: If you're lucky or savvy, it's open season. Then there's a torrent of pirates and such poking at various systems.

How well they fare varies: I doubt the Vargr are a threat to a TL12 High Population world with plenty of industry. In fact, individual Vargr are not stupid - a system like that is unlikely to even be attacked (and occasionally there's that dumb Vargr or that one who thinks he has some angle ... and is disabused of that idea pretty terminally).

Not all of the worlds in the Imperium like that, unfortunately. These Vargr are going to find the systems that are vulnerable to raids or could be vulnerable to raids. Then those worlds are going to be raided until there's nothing worth raiding there (and probably for a while after that as it takes time for word to get out).
 
RE Crinos

A Crinos form Garou stands something like nine feet high. It is a raging engine of supernatural destruction. Rip cars doors off hinges, shrug off gunshots, bite limbs off people. The Garou actually gains mass when it shifts into this form.
That is scary stuff.

Compare that with the size and physical power of that to a Vargr.

I get what Mike means about the Vargr body form looking like a humanoid canine. That, I think, is why he is comparing Vargr to Garou in Crinos form. I do not disagree with him about the physical similarity, except that the really big difference in size and physical power seems important to me.


I think of Vargr less as powerful space werewolves and more like packs of feral dogs, coy-dogs, etc. Thus the " rather unimpressive " physical appearance noted in some sources.
But of course, feral dogs and coy-dogs can be dangerous to humans.

And some humans are quite spooked by snarling, barking dogs. Indeed, some people are scared of ALL dogs. The Vargr might set off some phobias.

Edited for clarity.

YMMV. I am not attempting to dissuade anyone from using the term" Crinos" or from making general comparisons to werewolves of whatever kind.
I was just struck by Mike 's allusion to Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and though some further comments about that game and about how I envision the Vargr might be fun and helpful.



Actually, my preferred version of the Vargr has been posted elsewhere. I think Mike commented on that, and I thank him for all his feedback.
 
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Note:

I am fairly sure I have seen a Contact! article covering an unusually large-bodied Vargr variant. Load those guys up with combat drugs and you have berserker werewolves.
I think this was in the SJGames JTAS.
Not sure.
Mike, Aramis, anybody else?

Edit:

Maybe these couple of posts I have just made should be shifted to the " all things Vargr" thread? I don't want to derail discussion of Virus.
 
Note:

I am fairly sure I have seen a Contact! article covering an unusually large-bodied Vargr variant. Load those guys up with combat drugs and you have berserker werewolves.
I think this was in the SJGames JTAS.
Not sure.
Mike, Aramis, anybody else?

Edit:

Maybe these couple of posts I have just made should be shifted to the " all things Vargr" thread? I don't want to derail discussion of Virus.
You are probably thinking of the Urzaeng, one of several Vargr subspecies that were granted cursory mention in the old DGP Vilani & Vargr book. They were originally geneered for menial labor, and are said to be a good match for an Aslan male in one-on-one combat. This would imply that they are larger than the average human.

There are four other subspecies mentioned in that section: the nearly-extinct Kokasha, who were geneered into little brainiacs, and three others -- the Akumgeda, Ksinanirz and the Roth Thokken -- that were geneered with freaky psionic powers. The Roth Thokken are described as particularly weird; they're blind from birth, and spend most of their time preoccupying themselves in bizarre, superstitious psionic rituals.
 
In terms of Imperium retaliation because of Vargr raids, the question becomes what acts as deterrence.

And very little does, since for the Vargr, all politics tends to be very local, and institutional memory has a tendency to be short term.

Now personally, I never figured out what made Mussolini charismatic enough to be able to take over Italy, but then again, never figured out the hold Berlusconi had, either.
 
In terms of Imperium retaliation because of Vargr raids, the question becomes what acts as deterrence.

And very little does, since for the Vargr, all politics tends to be very local, and institutional memory has a tendency to be short term.

Now personally, I never figured out what made Mussolini charismatic enough to be able to take over Italy, but then again, never figured out the hold Berlusconi had, either.
Growing up spending a lot of time in the Italian-American North Ward of Newark, NJ ... there is a strong psychological attraction for the old Roman stereotype that men are either attractive and weak or ugly and shrewd. I suspect that Mussolini played to the old 'pater familias' ('father of the family') mental image prevalent in my grandfather's culture.
PM me and I'll tell you some stories about 'the old days'. ;)
 
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