Why not the Solomani?

[Timerover51]

The general impression I get is they had reasonable light arms and very good artillery, very good gun navy, but not good operational art/generalship and were sorely lacking in top tier armor and air equipment.

Another factor that did not help was Mussolini's decision to convert the Italian Army from a triangular division, with three regiments per division, to a two-regiment division. Aside from increasing the command and support unit needs by 50%, it also posed a serious problem for the division commander. Does he put one regiment in line and hold one in reserve, does he put both in line with no reserve, or does he put both in line but holds a battalion of each regiment in reserve as an ad-hoc combat group. Those are not real good choices.

The air problem basically was the result of Italy mobilizing in 1935 with the start of the Ethiopian War, followed immediately after by Italian intervention in the Spanish Civil War. That locked them, to a great degree, with 1935 technology, at a time when technology was literally changing every year. Against that, the SM-79 Spaviero 3-engine bomber was possibly the best land-based torpedo plane of the war.

 

[kilemall]

Another factor that did not help was Mussolini's decision to convert the Italian Army from a triangular division, with three regiments per division, to a two-regiment division. Aside from increasing the command and support unit needs by 50%, it also posed a serious problem for the division commander. Does he put one regiment in line and hold one in reserve, does he put both in line with no reserve, or does he put both in line but holds a battalion of each regiment in reserve as an ad-hoc combat group. Those are not real good choices.

The air problem basically was the result of Italy mobilizing in 1935 with the start of the Ethiopian War, followed immediately after by Italian intervention in the Spanish Civil War. That locked them, to a great degree, with 1935 technology, at a time when technology was literally changing every year. Against that, the SM-79 Spaviero 3-engine bomber was possibly the best land-based torpedo plane of the war.

Phew, had not heard they did that. Pretty horrific, sounds like M needed an ego/PR boost in saying Italy had X divisions.

Means among other things you would need an Italian corps vs. a US division, maybe more.

 

[mike wightman]

36,000 Britsh troops defeated the Italian 10th Army in the early western desert campaign, they numbered about 150,000...

 

[Condottiere]

The Italians in Africa were quite happy that Rommel turned up, less so when he used them to cover his strategic withdrawal after Al Alamein.

The Alpine units were considered, somewhat elite, mostly because they were Austrians.

 

[Timerover51]

The Italians in Africa were quite happy that Rommel turned up, less so when he used them to cover his strategic withdrawal after Al Alamein.

The Alpine units were considered, somewhat elite, mostly because they were Austrians.

Actually, the Italians were not that happy at all with Rommel, as he kept outrunning his supply lines, and then blamed the Italians for a lack of support. The Italian Navy was especially unhappy with him, as it was their ships that were getting sunk trying to supply him. And it did not help that by mid-1942, the Italian Navy was about out of fuel, and totally dependent on whatever supplies the Germans would give them. To fuel the convoy escorts, they were draining the fuel tanks of their battleships and cruisers.

You might want to read the Ciano Diaries for how Rommel was viewed in Rome.

However, we should get the thread back on track, discussing the Solomani.

 

[Condottiere]

To be more clear, I meant the common Italian soldier, since Rommel seemed to know what he doing. And winning, mostly.

 

[Murph]

If you read Paul Carrell, Rick Atkinson, and others, you get the impression that Rommel had a good opinion of well trained, and well led Italian troops, handicapped though they were by really poor equipment.

To be more clear, I meant the common Italian soldier, since Rommel seemed to know what he doing. And winning, mostly.

 

[Murph]

Absolutely, I just wonder why the Solomani Sphere is not bigger rimward than shown? The Terrans in the years of the Imperium, and later should have gone rimward in a big way since that was the free frontier....

The Solomani Rim does have the only available area of unexplored space to expand into. Jumping off from one of the planets in the Rimward subsectors of the Solomani area puts you into totally unknown, at least to the Traveller canon. That does allow for all sorts of things, including areas where the Universe gets stretched a bit thin, and all sorts of things can leak through in either direction.

 

[Condottiere]

Donno; while the Navy is responsible for surveying it, it's up to the diplomats and senate to convince them to join, unless there's some interest group to whom this wouldn't suit, possibly on economic grounds.

 

[Timerover51]

Absolutely, I just wonder why the Solomani Sphere is not bigger rimward than shown? The Terrans in the years of the Imperium, and later should have gone rimward in a big way since that was the free frontier....

The problem if the OTU has the Solomani expand to Rimward in a major way is at least two fold.

One, it gets harder to explain how the Imperium conquered Terra given the distance from Capitol to Terra, as then the Solomani would have a lot more planetary resources to draw on.

Second, if you allow for adventures in the Solomani Rim, a lot of your Imperium-based material is a non-issue A Game Master can chuck out all of the stuff for Imperial nobility, the Scout service, and Imperial Interdicted planets, while a characters social standing beyond 9 is pretty much a non-issue or simply indicates relative wealth. No Zhodani or Vargr or K'kree to worry about, and depending on which way you expand, no Aslan (which I view as horribly overlarge when it comes to space) or Hivers. Very limited if any Ancients as well, unless one of Grandfathers great-grandkids is still out there. Someone flashing an Imperial Warrant in the area beyond Terra may find themselves trying to breath vacuum.

 

[Condottiere]

If you take the Pacific War analogy, the capability and willingness of the Imperium to throw vast resources and accumulated reserves of men and material against a Solomani Navy that appears not to have accumulated reserves of either ships nor men, and blew their strategic reserves in the first onslaught, then rigidly defended every cubic foot of space.

Besides a technological edge, that only was bridged for a very brief window.

 

[kilemall]

Second, if you allow for adventures in the Solomani Rim, a lot of your Imperium-based material is a non-issue A Game Master can chuck out all of the stuff for Imperial nobility, the Scout service, and Imperial Interdicted planets, while a characters social standing beyond 9 is pretty much a non-issue or simply indicates relative wealth. No Zhodani or Vargr or K'kree to worry about, and depending on which way you expand, no Aslan (which I view as horribly overlarge when it comes to space) or Hivers. Very limited if any Ancients as well, unless one of Grandfathers great-grandkids is still out there. Someone flashing an Imperial Warrant in the area beyond Terra may find themselves trying to breath vacuum.

Well, speaking as a notorious Imperium/noble chucker, I'd have social standing work similarly, except the A+ people are Party members, and it's measuring relative levels of influence and standing.

Could be an industrialist, a military officer or an inherited familial standing with parents making sure junior went to the Right Schools, did the Right Service and is spouting the Right Party Lines, but to Get Big Things Done And People Off The Hook your party rank matters.

 

[SanDragon]

In the Solomani module, Soc was your standing in the Party, if you joined it.

 

[Timerover51]

In the Solomani module, Soc was your standing in the Party, if you joined it.

That is interesting, but as I have never had the Solomani module, I was totally unaware of it. It also implies a unity of government that I do not use.

 

[aramis]

That is interesting, but as I have never had the Solomani module, I was totally unaware of it. It also implies a unity of government that I do not use.

Actually, the level of uniformity in the module was slightly below that of the USSR... the Party is everywhere, and determines your position and promotion potential, but isn't actually as all pervasive culturally.

In fact, it seems to be "USSR writ across the stars"...

 

[SanDragon]

And that is why I didn't really take to it.

 

[Murph]

Something I just could not get into, and disapprove of in its entirety. My Solomani, while anti-imperial, were more cuthroat mercantilists, Wild West individualists, and starry eyed explorers. That is why I moved my campaign to Reavers Deep from the Spinward Marches/Far Frontier.

Actually, the level of uniformity in the module was slightly below that of the USSR... the Party is everywhere, and determines your position and promotion potential, but isn't actually as all pervasive culturally.

In fact, it seems to be "USSR writ across the stars"...

 

[Condottiere]

The Solomani Party has a big tent, and especially since the Rim War, one overriding interest is in economic development and technical base advancement to at least fifteen.

The worlds close to the border want to enjoy continued trade links to the Imperium, while those further away may really be itching to recover the lost territories.

Racial purity ideology may be less an issue with homogeneous systems, and more corrosive towards the borders.

 

[Timerover51]

Actually, the level of uniformity in the module was slightly below that of the USSR... the Party is everywhere, and determines your position and promotion potential, but isn't actually as all pervasive culturally.

In fact, it seems to be "USSR writ across the stars"...

As I said, I do not and never have had the module, and based on yours comments, I never will.

 

[77topaz]

Actually, the level of uniformity in the module was slightly below that of the USSR... the Party is everywhere, and determines your position and promotion potential, but isn't actually as all pervasive culturally.

In fact, it seems to be "USSR writ across the stars"...

And that is why I didn't really take to it.

Something I just could not get into, and disapprove of in its entirety. My Solomani, while anti-imperial, were more cuthroat mercantilists, Wild West individualists, and starry eyed explorers. That is why I moved my campaign to Reavers Deep from the Spinward Marches/Far Frontier.

I remember someone on these forums (I don't remember exactly where) saying that the Solomani module was likely written to make the Solomani look as evil as possible, because otherwise, the players (being Terrans, after all) would be more likely to sympathise with the Solomani Confederation rather than the Third Imperium that is (was) meant to be the big "heroic" empire of Charted Space.