why tech 15?

[Ishmael]

Based on MT rules for ships, a shipyard can only build ships at its own tech level ( a tech 13 world may build ships of tech 13 or less ).
For repairs, Type A ports can fix jump drives and type B can repair everything else, but repairs to damages ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level.
Does this include routine maintenance? Can a tech 11 port service a tech 15 drive? Given task DM's for tech level differences, would you trust a tech 11 port to service a tech 15 drive?

But in the Spinward Marches ( unless I totally counted wrong ) there are only 4 tech-15 ports in Imperial Space ( 4 type-A and no type-B ). There is only one tech-14 A and B port.

This would cause logistics headaches for tech-15 civilian ships as they need to schedule trips to get them to one of those four worlds at the proper time. Also, ALL tech-15 goods and parts must be manufactured on one of those four worlds or else be imported for outside the entire sector ( shipping costs would suck ).

Even with the assumption that all naval bases are Imperial at tech-15, the logistics tail to support those ( given the very limited sources of tech-15 goods/parts ) must be heinous and not any help to traders anyway. Supply convoys that support tech-15 naval bases haven't been mentioned in canon to my recollection.

How would tech-15 SDB's be repaired except for those 4 worlds anyways..... periodic trips on a battlerider?

The greatest number of type 'A' ports that can service starships are clustered around tech 11-12?
For non-jump ship's equipment, 'B' starports are clustered mostly around tech-9 to tech-11.

So why is almost every ship ( along with nearly every other bit of equipment ) tech-15?
Limited supply sources that are far away and can't be maintained except at those faraway places?
Give me a solid tech 11 trader any day.... it'll be easier to keep in good repair.

 

[Higgipedia]

I'm running a game set in the Hard Times. so it's going to get even worse for my guys. There is only one Class A Starport in the two subsectors I've got them in.

And it's in Solomani hands.

 

[Dragoner]

I use HG1 rules: "The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard." Which mirrors realty.

TL is overused: "It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present." -s3

 

[VonPickles]

I always considered TL to be an average of what the world has to offer, there might be some tech that is higher, while other fields may be lower, i myself tend correlate TL's with the trade codes, it makes sense your TL15 Ht, Na, In world isnt going to be up there with a Ht Ag world when it comes to tractors and combine harvesters!

 

[Enoki]

I always considered TL to be an average of what the world has to offer, there might be some tech that is higher, while other fields may be lower, i myself tend correlate TL's with the trade codes, it makes sense your TL15 Ht, Na, In world isnt going to be up there with a Ht Ag world when it comes to tractors and combine harvesters!

That's the way I see it. The TL is the average available on that world. If you look at Earth it is that way here. While the planet overall is a 6 or maybe a 7 the high is starting to push 9. I would think that disparity would be a bit greater in a Traveller setting given the wider range of technologies available.

So, a planet might be rated a, say TL 12 but has a shipyard on it capable of TL 14 work. Just because the average is 12 doesn't mean there can't be higher or lower (significantly higher or lower) tech available somewhere.
Another example might be a vacuum world with a TL of say 5. I don't think that will fly in terms of operating a life support system, having vac suits, vehicles that operate in a vacuum, etc. So, we might assume that world with respect to those things necessary for life support and operating in a vacuum are much higher tech at let's say 8 to 10. But, everyday tech is at a 5.... good luck finding digital electronic anything there.... (or the reason is say the presence of alot of EMP bursts from the local star or whatever so they don't use electronics for most purposes.

Be creative! It's a friggin' game after all! The purpose is to have fun not an academic debate over every little thing!

 

[Carlobrand]

Based on MT rules for ships, a shipyard can only build ships at its own tech level ( a tech 13 world may build ships of tech 13 or less ).
For repairs, Type A ports can fix jump drives and type B can repair everything else, but repairs to damages ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level.
Does this include routine maintenance? Can a tech 11 port service a tech 15 drive? Given task DM's for tech level differences, would you trust a tech 11 port to service a tech 15 drive?

But in the Spinward Marches ( unless I totally counted wrong ) there are only 4 tech-15 ports in Imperial Space ( 4 type-A and no type-B ). There is only one tech-14 A and B port.

This would cause logistics headaches for tech-15 civilian ships as they need to schedule trips to get them to one of those four worlds at the proper time. Also, ALL tech-15 goods and parts must be manufactured on one of those four worlds or else be imported for outside the entire sector ( shipping costs would suck ).

Even with the assumption that all naval bases are Imperial at tech-15, the logistics tail to support those ( given the very limited sources of tech-15 goods/parts ) must be heinous and not any help to traders anyway. Supply convoys that support tech-15 naval bases haven't been mentioned in canon to my recollection.

How would tech-15 SDB's be repaired except for those 4 worlds anyways..... periodic trips on a battlerider?

The greatest number of type 'A' ports that can service starships are clustered around tech 11-12?
For non-jump ship's equipment, 'B' starports are clustered mostly around tech-9 to tech-11.

So why is almost every ship ( along with nearly every other bit of equipment ) tech-15?
Limited supply sources that are far away and can't be maintained except at those faraway places?
Give me a solid tech 11 trader any day.... it'll be easier to keep in good repair.

T'is a puzzlement. I suspect the MT writers used TL-15 to solve certain basic problems of making the MT ships match up with canon CT ships. Low tech power plants take up three times the volume for the same output as the TL-15 drives, therefore higher cost and less cargo space for the same performance, and since MT doesn't have any way to divert power from the engines to power weapons, the plants need to be even bigger to be able to power the weapons CT says the ships can carry. A TL-10 Free Trader with performance equal to its TL-15 cousin can easily cost twice the price, making it really difficult to make those mortgage payments. (That's something of a carry-over from High Guard, where the same problem existed.)

And then there's the armor issue.

However, by taking that short-cut rather than delivering ships of appropriate tech, they left us with a choice between ignoring that starport TL rule and assuming the few TL-15 worlds were supplying parts for the ports of an entire sector, or constructing our own low-tech starships to serve the needs of adventurers (since your typical Free Trader captain can't afford to have his ship transported by tender several weeks' jump to the nearest TL-15 port every time the power plant blows a "gasket").

I constructed a serviceable TL-10 Free Trader at a reasonable price by forgetting about power for lasers - chopping the power needs in half - and foregoing the fancy EMS systems in favor of radar, ladar, and radar/radio detection with laser sensors, passive IR, light amplification, and image enhancement. I figured: 1) a merchant is more interested in cost and available space for cargo and passengers; 2) missiles are almost as effective as lasers in small-ship combat; and 3) spending MCr20+ and volume for laser power to save Cr20,000 per missile only makes sense if you're going to be doing a whooole lot of fighting. Still costs about 50% more than the old Book-2 traders, but I ended up with more interior space and a ship that might actually turn a profit.

I'm not clear at all how that affects passive detection, since the game doesn't actually define the effectiveness of the various lower-tech passive detection systems in that role.

 

[GypsyComet]

T'is a puzzlement. I suspect the MT writers used TL-15 to solve certain basic problems of making the MT ships match up with canon CT ships.

Absolutely.

Low tech power plants take up three times the volume for the same output as the TL-15 drives, therefore higher cost and less cargo space for the same performance, and since MT doesn't have any way to divert power from the engines to power weapons, the plants need to be even bigger to be able to power the weapons CT says the ships can carry.

Made no easier by the voracious hunger of those weapons. The problem isn't the powerplant itself, though. Fuel for the powerplant was the problem. DGP (who wrote 90% of MT) used the fuel and vehicle->starship weapons rules from Striker, resulting in vastly energy hungry weaponry and drives, which led directly to lots and lots of fuel. You'll notice that fuel use per megawatt doesn't change much through the Stellar TLs, so this problem never goes away. It has to be mitigated through other means.

Fortunately, MT's craft design system was detailed enough to provide the solution once a fundamental assumption was put aside: Don't power everything for the entire month. A jump ship will need to run life support for most of that time (because you can't assume shirtsleeve worlds), but the M-Drive (one of the hungry components) might need only half that, and the weapons (the other hungry component) probably need five days at most in a civilian design. Installing three separate powerplants and providing each with only their mission-appropriate amount of fuel solves the CT compatibility issue at a much earlier TL.

Note that TNE and T4 could use the same solution. None of the other editions have the problem or support the solution.

 

[aramis]

Low tech power plants take up three times the volume for the same output as the TL-15 drives, therefore higher cost and less cargo space for the same performance...

The same is true of high guard designs. TL15 is 1T/EP; TL13-14 is 2T/EP, TL9-12 is 3T/EP. (TL7-8 is 4T/EP)

And cost is still per ton.

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm thinking tech may be a bit overrated, but not THAT overrated. We can quibble about a couple of tech levels plus or minus, but there's a lot of tech between TL10 and TL15.

...Made no easier by the voracious hunger of those weapons. The problem isn't the powerplant itself, though. Fuel for the powerplant was the problem. ...

Umm, not so much for merchants. Having more space is good and all, but only if you actually fill that space; the trade rules generate the same numbers irrespective of your available space. The core cost of the plant is still a big headache. The plant's a quarter to a third the cost of a merchantman; tripling that cost for the same amount of power really digs deep into the profit margin.

 

[GypsyComet]

Having more space is good and all, but only if you actually fill that space; the trade rules generate the same numbers irrespective of your available space.

That is not a ship problem, though. That is a trade rules problem. Since those rules started out tuned to Free Traders (and make no mistake, they *are* tuned) they are generally going to starve anything above a Type R or M. The existence of larger traders is established in most editions.

Further note: CT High Guard is a fleet combat simulator. Despite its decades of use as a general ship builder and general ship combat system, it is not optimal for either function, *especially* when used with Book 2/3 trade assumptions. You are assuming finely tuned cross-compatibility where there is only coarse compatibility at best.

 

[Carlobrand]

That is not a ship problem, though. That is a trade rules problem. Since those rules started out tuned to Free Traders (and make no mistake, they *are* tuned) they are generally going to starve anything above a Type R or M. The existence of larger traders is established in most editions.

Further note: CT High Guard is a fleet combat simulator. Despite its decades of use as a general ship builder and general ship combat system, it is not optimal for either function, *especially* when used with Book 2/3 trade assumptions. You are assuming finely tuned cross-compatibility where there is only coarse compatibility at best.

And here I was thinking we were talking about Megatraveller. My bad.

 

[GypsyComet]

Ah right. Argument support has been drifting in from other editions.

That said, MT's trade system was, IIRC, not well regarded either. The third visit to the question (after Book 3 and Book 7 in CT) was either not a priority for the DGP crew or they didn't understand the simulation they were re-writing.

That the ship design system was built on Striker-based approximations which you were then expected to use within a hacked up High Guard combat system didn't help.

These guys took four years to figure out that the grenade rules hadn't actually made it into the book. Lovely background writers, if heavily slanted toward the high end of the Imperium TL, but mechanically they were coasting and in denial about it.

 

[Carlobrand]

... MT's trade system was, IIRC, not well regarded either. The third visit to the question (after Book 3 and Book 7 in CT) was either not a priority for the DGP crew or they didn't understand the simulation they were re-writing. ...

Not well regarded by me either, at least the part that sets available quantity. I don't have any experience on which to judge the rest of that. I'd have done something like, "There's this much available today; now let's see how much of it you can persuade to come your way instead of going to the big shippers."

...That the ship design system was built on Striker-based approximations which you were then expected to use within a hacked up High Guard combat system didn't help.

These guys took four years to figure out that the grenade rules hadn't actually made it into the book. Lovely background writers, if heavily slanted toward the high end of the Imperium TL, but mechanically they were coasting and in denial about it. ...

Ayup. MT is such an almost-good system. I wish we could just collectively take the thing, rewrite it, and re-release it. Even just finishing some of the details they left out would be nice - like how to integrate the various TL-9 passive detection gear into the space combat system, since it's not entirely unlikely to have a ship using those. MegaTrav-II!

First thing I'd do is invert that cost mechanic, make higher-tech stuff cost more than lower tech stuff. Why? Well, there's an argument for higher-tech stuff costing less, but there are also instances where that is either not true or inverted, so it's not an absolute. More to the point, an economy where the high tech goodies cost more handily explains why there are so many low-to-mid-tech worlds.

 

[DaveChase]

...

Even with the assumption that all naval bases are Imperial at tech-15, the logistics tail to support those ( given the very limited sources of tech-15 goods/parts ) must be heinous and not any help to traders anyway. Supply convoys that support tech-15 naval bases haven't been mentioned in canon to my recollection.

How would tech-15 SDB's be repaired except for those 4 worlds anyways..... periodic trips on a battlerider?

...

Nope, that's why there are those service techs that get sent out to bum Aslan a s s end of no where to do the yearly check up on those TL 15 sinkers (tech nickname for a SDB).

Dave Chase

 

[Dragoner]

I'm sure the navy has supply flotillas.

 

[rancke]

Based on MT rules for ships, a shipyard can only build ships at its own tech level ( a tech 13 world may build ships of tech 13 or less ).

For repairs, Type A ports can fix jump drives and type B can repair everything else, but repairs to damages ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level.

The rules mix up two different situations. One is starport classes which indicates services available to civilians and the other deals with warships, which tends to be the concern of national governments.

The mixup comes from the writers of the wargames rules overlooking or ignoring the rule in HG that makes planetary governments able to build ships even if they only have a Class E starport, as long as the tech level is high enough. The requirement that a world need a Class A or Class B starport in order to have a shipyard that can build or repair warships is mistaken. A shipyard is (presumably) required to repair battle damage, and there's no way to know (from the UWP) whether any world with Class C, D, and E starports have military shipyards. All that can be read from the UWP is that there is no civilian shipyards. But those that do build their own warships must be presumed to be able to repair them too.

Contrariwise, merely having a Class A starport doesn't guarantee that the world's civilian shipyards have the capacity to repair warships.

TCS simplifies the situstion for ease of game play and ignores the potential existence of military shipyards on worlds without Class A starports and ties the size of available shipyard capacity directly to population size; both are fine for playing TCS, but not so fine for world-building.

Does this include routine maintenance? Can a tech 11 port service a tech 15 drive?

Worlds with Class A and B starports can perform routine maintenance on any passing civilian starship small enough to be a likely vessel for a bunch of PCs to fly around in. For regular shipping companies, they presumably make arrangements for maintenance in advance and select a starport with the requisite capacity and expertise.

Given task DM's for tech level differences, would you trust a tech 11 port to service a tech 15 drive?

If they import the parts and the technicians, sure, why not?

But in the Spinward Marches ( unless I totally counted wrong ) there are only 4 tech-15 ports in Imperial Space ( 4 type-A and no type-B ). There is only one tech-14 A and B port.

Ah, but those are four high-population TL 15 worlds, fully capable of producing all the spare parts needed to keep a lot of TL 15 starships flying.

This would cause logistics headaches for tech-15 civilian ships as they need to schedule trips to get them to one of those four worlds at the proper time. Also, ALL tech-15 goods and parts must be manufactured on one of those four worlds or else be imported for outside the entire sector ( shipping costs would suck).

They would if routine maintenance involved bulky spare parts. If they only involve tiny spare parts, the shipping costs would not be prohibitive.

Even with the assumption that all naval bases are Imperial at tech-15, the logistics tail to support those ( given the very limited sources of tech-15 goods/parts ) must be heinous and not any help to traders anyway. Supply convoys that support tech-15 naval bases haven't been mentioned in canon to my recollection.

Only indirectly. The description of Imperial Navy ships in MT:Rebellion mentions that auxiliaries are not included in the numbers discussed.

How would tech-15 SDB's be repaired except for those 4 worlds anyways..... periodic trips on a battlerider?

The rules don't assign TL 15 SDBs to any other system. More realistically, a mid-tech world will decide on what SDBs (and monitors) it will buy for its system defenses based on the proximity of worlds that can deliver them and the cost of maintaining them.

So why is almost every ship ( along with nearly every other bit of equipment ) tech-15?

At a guess, because the available setting material was selected for reasons other than being statistically representative.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

At a guess, because the available setting material was selected for reasons other than being statistically representative.

DGP certainly had a lot of "Rule of Cool" in their writing. Their material was one long love affair with TL15 and 16.

 

[Ishmael]

I use HG1 rules: "The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard." Which mirrors realty.

TL is overused: "It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present." -s3

These positions really don't help much.
The first statement then begs the question, if true, "Why doesn't the Third Imperium use tech-18 ships?"
Mirrors reality? .... citation needed.

The second statement may be true, but only if the tech goods are manufactured somewhere and shipped, if not manufactured on the world. Where, if not on one of the only four worlds that have tech-15 goods?
--------------------

A TL-10 Free Trader with performance equal to its TL-15 cousin can easily cost twice the price, making it really difficult to make those mortgage payments. (That's something of a carry-over from High Guard, where the same problem existed.)

Why would anyone think a tech-10 ship can have the same performance as a atech-15 ship for little or no mark-up? Gearhead munchkinism? The point is that, because of how the rules describe the setting, the setting should have many many ships,etc. of modest tech levels and not just the ubiquitous tech-15 gear.
-------------------

 

[Ishmael]

The rules mix up two different situations. One is starport classes which indicates services available to civilians and the other deals with warships, which tends to be the concern of national governments.

There is no mixup. The rules as written are quite clear concerning tech levels and repairs. The make no distinction between military and civilian damage.
"In any situation, repairs to a damaged ship following a battle must be conducted at shipyards of the required tech level ( although it is an option of the referee to make exceptions to this rule)"
"This rule" is optional, and thus, not standard rule for the setting.

TCS simplifies the situstion for ease of game play and ignores the potential existence of military shipyards on worlds without Class A starports and ties the size of available shipyard capacity directly to population size; both are fine for playing TCS, but not so fine for world-building.

I strongly disagree. Basing capacity on pop is perfect for world-building in that it follows real-world tendencies to service shipping at or near areas with supply/demand.

Ah, but those are four high-population TL 15 worlds, fully capable of producing all the spare parts needed to keep a lot of TL 15 starships flying. ...

... They would if routine maintenance involved bulky spare parts. If they only involve tiny spare parts, the shipping costs would not be prohibitive.

I am not so certain that 4 worlds can produce ALL the tech-15 gear used by an entire sector. Perhaps some experiment runs using Pocket Empires might show if that were possible, but I am afraid that I will remain unconvinced until shown otherwise. Also, if those 4 worlds are producing all that gear for the sector, there would be a great deal of unemployment on lower tech worlds as their goods are not needed?

Shipping costs would remain the same per ton for any shipping, eh? It just might involve shipping across more than a couple of subsectors...a more circuitous route of the shipper can only do jump 2 as a far trader might.

The rules don't assign TL 15 SDBs to any other system. More realistically, a mid-tech world will decide on what SDBs (and monitors) it will buy for its system defenses based on the proximity of worlds that can deliver them and the cost of maintaining them.

So the Dragon Class SDB will actually be fairly rare compared to the other types ( mostly fan-made and unofficial/canon ) ;-)

At a guess, because the available setting material was selected for reasons other than being statistically representative.

Or perhaps the setting material chosen ( most things/ships/etc. are tech-15 ) does not logically follow the setting?

 

[Ishmael]

So, a planet might be rated a, say TL 12 but has a shipyard on it capable of TL 14 work. Just because the average is 12 doesn't mean there can't be higher or lower (significantly higher or lower) tech available somewhere.

" The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality and sophistication of the products commonly available on a world in urban areas or near the starport. Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from large population centers may be one or even two Tech Levels lower." MT Ref's Guide, pg 21

Similar, but not quite the same....

Be creative! It's a friggin' game after all! The purpose is to have fun not an academic debate over every little thing!

So questioning the logic behind the setting is not allowed nor fun?
I'd rather use my creativity to do things other than explain away inconsistencies in a game universe.