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Civilian Wheeled Vehicles [IMTU]

I have a Classic Traveller PbP game ["BACKWATER"] that takes place on a TL 11 world in a TL 10-13 Universe. Many worlds in Traveller Worldgen have a POP that will require settlements to be located too far apart to make paved roads economical. Grav tech is too expensive for most people [using STRIKER/Megatraveller]. I needed a better selection of WHEELED vehicles optimized for DIRT ROADS and OFF-ROAD travel. Using DOD data for speeds as a starting point, I created some Civilian Vehicles for my worlds. I REALLY do not want to get into the HOUSE RULES on more realistic fuel consumption that was incorporated into them, or why I rounded the prices up to the nearest convenient figure ... so these are just presented as ART for you to love, hate, use or ignore as the spirit moves you ...

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With satellite internet and a credit card, you could unlock heating when you're stuck in the middle of a blizzard.
Until you're stuck in that blizzard because a tree fell on your car, and it squashed the uplink antenna when it fell. Hope you brought your warm undies along. Or the stupid thing refuses to accept the unlock code.

In my opinion there is only one way to see it. It is shrinkflation (I would have used a stronger word but I do not want to be banned).

The number of things that have been taken away while the costs have gone up is crazy. The insane greed that has taken over is not, in any way, excusable under some fake excuse like "pay for what you want. The cost of the car didn't go down. The cost of the computer did not go down, the cost of the food did not go down. But the services, volume, and value have.
Note that adding subscription or even one-time unlock codes to a car costs money. The manufacturers spent money so they could cripple your car and then charge you money to uncripple it.
 
Note that adding subscription or even one-time unlock codes to a car costs money. The manufacturers spent money so they could cripple your car and then charge you money to uncripple it.
I am sure the cost to add that "Feature" to the car's onboard computer system cost them a lot less than the revenue they will bring in from it. It is all about pulling more money out of the consumer, period. No benefit to me no matter what they try to convince us of. :(
 
I am sure the cost to add that "Feature" to the car's onboard computer system cost them a lot less than the revenue they will bring in from it. It is all about pulling more money out of the consumer, period. No benefit to me no matter what they try to convince us of. :(
Oh, of course. They're not losing money on it. But they did make a choice to spend money to actively make the car worse for the purchaser.
 
What's the primary production cost driver for cars?

As I understand it, regulations, weight, and electronics; plus the requisite software.

Also, if you pay for it, optional features can be unlocked, like air conditioning, and heating.
When? In the 80's and before, no software. Most had only mechanical action analog processing.
In the 00's on, software became a major factor. In the 2010's the rise of pay-to-unlock... but the first 100 years of automobiles, what calculation was done was by analog processes fixed in hardware, especially carburetors and automatic transmissions.
 
rant triggered...
That's a new thing; in the old days of the 60's to early 90's, they didn't install things with subscriptions and/or unlock fees; if it was an option, ordering it required the dealer to install it, or to order it from the factory with those specific options added. About the only exception was FM Radio... that was pretty stadard.

AC was a physical module not included unless you paid for it.

Heating was required by law in many states. Alaska, in the cities with Emmissions checks, the heater not working meant either having seasonal tags (can't be used from 1 Oct to 1 Apr) or not being allowed on road at all. It's essential for winter driving, and without it, the windows rapidly become opaque.

Alaska required dealers to ensure there was a working AM radio in new cars - needed for road closure notices and emergency instructions. Oregon expects you to have AM radio, same reason, but I'm not sure if it's required as it is in Alaska, but it is expected.

I remember emergency buttons (specifically OnStar) hitting in the 90s; a lookup shows OnStar being in operation from 1996 until 2024.

CB radios were available from the dealer in some models, nicely mounted into the dash, and a thinner than standard AM/FM above it.

OnStar was the first feature I recall being pay-to-enable and installed in all of the models it was available in. There are certain concerns about pay-to-enable... very few consumers like it, even as they use it.

It also ties into the Right to Repair movement; is it unlawful to unlock features without paying on the hardware that aren't enabled? Subscription radio, sat or VHF, you're basically renting the decrypt keys.

Of course, we're now renting (by streaming) visual content that you can't buy at all. The are pushing that way for radio services. You want to see it again? You don't just pull out your disk or digital copy, you pay for it again if the service hasn't folded up or has stopped paying for that older vid or song.

And I can store things 'in the cloud' while to store something off of my phone in an organized way is more involved.

And now, where I am, an video recorder won't work and they have a 'cloud PVR' which forces you to lose content you used to be able to keep - 2 months and its gone. So the large data storage doesn't matter, because you can't see the content after 2 months.

And in some models of cars, some features that I consider safety equipment are now something you *rent*.

This same society wants you pay repeatedly for services for a service (e.g. gone to the doctor, but in order to get to see the doctor and pay his fee, I have to pay a fee for a clinic to schedule my appointment).

And we have car purchases that come with a price. Only when it arrives, they'll try to jack you up for another few thousand or else they'll give it someone else.

We've got fast food places wanting to use surge pricing! Same with delivery services for parcels.

If you've never seen it, try to find a copy of Carbon 2185. In there, your characters own nothing. They have to pay a place to sleep at an exorbitant pricing and you can guy guns or other weapons by the hour. It's literally where we seem to be heading.

If we want to worry so much over how the Traveller vehicles and power tables are not accurate to 2020+, we should all recall it was written in the 1970s and it made some guesses and then made up the rest and built an entire tiered tech tree that they knew wasn't going to match reality.

Why people want to use our current tech level to try to shoehorn the decisions made 40 years ago into a fictitious universe...... I just don't get that.
 
Because a TL8 universe is mor4e advanced then where we are now.

If at TL9 they still can't do what is done routinely with our current tech there is something lacking in the verisimilitude of the rules and setting.
 
Because a TL8 universe is mor4e advanced then where we are now.

If at TL9 they still can't do what is done routinely with our current tech there is something lacking in the verisimilitude of the rules and setting.
I have the same issue with TW2k in that I am looking at games that are 40 to almost 50 years old. The idea that the real world is not the same as what was imagined in their fictional effort back then has to be expected. I have accepted Traveller can't be 100% fit into our world now. It is what it is. I am not playing a simulation; I am playing a game. So sometimes I have to get past the nitpicky stuff and move on with the fun. :) (y)
 
When the science is no longer fiction how do describe what you are playing as science fiction?

Remember 40+ years ago when we gave the size of computers a pass because <reasons>

It go to the point that the size and game mechanics of computers was being widely ridiculed and putting people off.

Mu contention is that the real world rose of what is called AI and its use in robots and drones is going to cause another wave of taking the piss out of Traveller.

Note they changed the computer rules by MrgaTraveller...

More personally I don't like the T2k, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a limited nuclear war in Europe at the turn of the century, so my version of the backstory is it is set a few years from now (thinking of a backstory is trivial thanks to real world).

It is called 2000 because your squad starts the game with 2000 rounds of ammunition,, 2000 MRE and 2000 gallons of fuel.
 
When the science is no longer fiction how do describe what you are playing as science fiction?
How much did you pay for YOUR valet Robot?
What brand was it?
Did it have Wheels, Tracks or Hover?
How many other jobs was it programmed to perform?

Are we SURE the "Science" is no longer "Fiction"?
It reminds me a lot of FUSION and FLYING CARS ... always "just around the corner".

This is a working robot in 1975:
ABB_IRB_60.jpg


This is a working robot in 2024:
6638f50b2103220007f30c80-4_irb_7710_7720_high_accuracy_contact_application_.png


This is still a "Concept" of the FUTURE and not a real commercial product:
1200px-Honda_ASIMO_%28ver._2011%29_2011_Tokyo_Motor_Show.jpg
 
How much did you pay for YOUR valet Robot?
What brand was it?
Did it have Wheels, Tracks or Hover?
How many other jobs was it programmed to perform?
I'm not claiming they are available right now for civilian use.
The technology is there to have them in the next couple of years though.

The Ukrainians have AI drones in the air and in the water (with 2 years of training data to train future AI control), the Chinese have tracked infantry robots. Adding AI control to a tank, APC, IFV would be trivial at this point.

The AI learning tools are there now, all you need is to harvest lots of data so the AI can learn, then you need a simulated battlespace or better yet a real battlespace to test it all out and inform future learning.

Are we SURE the "Science" is no longer "Fiction"?
It reminds me a lot of FUSION and FLYING CARS ... always "just around the corner".
The science of AI learning to train to use machines is very much no longer fiction.
This is a working robot in 1975:
ABB_IRB_60.jpg


This is a working robot in 2024:
6638f50b2103220007f30c80-4_irb_7710_7720_high_accuracy_contact_application_.png


This is still a "Concept" of the FUTURE and not a real commercial product:
1200px-Honda_ASIMO_%28ver._2011%29_2011_Tokyo_Motor_Show.jpg
I think you are a bit out of date with your idea about current robot technology. :)
Tesla's Optimus will soon be produced as 1000 or so units. These will work in Tesla, X, and Space X facilities.
That huge AI centre Musk has just completed will take all the data from those units and learn from it, the software operating the robots will be improved rapidly.

All those drones on the Ukrainian battlefield, the drone F-16s, they exist right now, they are gathering data, right now, the AI is learning to operate the systems more efficiently , right now.

A few years ago a chess computer couldn't beat a chess grand master. Now they win every game. A chess AI working with a grand master can compete with a stand alone chess AI, for now...

Humanity is at a turning point, AI is about to change society in a more fundamental way than the smartphone and antisocial media did. I hope I am wrong.
 
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I think you are a bit out of date with your idea about current robot technology. Tesla's Optimus will soon be produced as 1000 or so units. These will work in Tesla, X, and Space X facilities.
That huge AI centre Musk has just completed will take all the data from those units and learn from it, the software operating the robots will be improved rapidly.

All those drones on the Ukrainian battlefield, the drone F-16s, they exist right now, they are gathering data, right now, the AI is learning to operate the systems more efficiently , right now.

A few years ago a chess computer couldn't beat a chess grand master. Now they win every game. A chess AI working with a grand master can compete with a stand alone chess AI, for now...

Humanity is at a turning point, AI is about to change society in a more fundamental way than the smartphone and antisocial media did. I hope I am wrong.
I would argue that is TL-2 Experimental, but if it comes to market, then I will eat crow.
The ROBOTS that I posted are "ubiquitous".

[I also agree that Book 8 Robots could be IMPROVED upon.]
 
Humanity is at a turning point, AI is about to change society in a more fundamental way than the smartphone and antisocial media did. I hope I am wrong.

We may disagree on some points, but on this one I am 100% in agreement. And like you, I hope my fears are wrong.
 
When the science is no longer fiction how do describe what you are playing as science fiction?
Imagination or Choice.

Since computers are a huge source of discussion on this subject... Yeah, back when Traveller came out, computers were the size of a room. Now my cheap Android phone can outperform one of those computers to the point that it might be kind of amusing if not just out right amazing.

When I got back into Traveller and came across the Threads with this subject, I couldn't help but wonder what I was going to do when I built starships. Eventually I decided that I'd use the computers as is in the Traveller rule set, and eventually thought of some home rules on the subject. Concerning the computers of today, way better than what is in Traveller, but making the change for realities sake kind of means losing some of that Traveller flavor of having a chunky & clunky computer running the ship. The space taken up by computers on a ship is frustrating, especially when you want better performance, but this is supposed to be one of the charms of playing Traveller.

Back in the day, the rare car that drove around was scaring the horses, but now I need to drive a car to a place that has horses that aren't scared of cars anymore.

Robots: Will we live in harmony with them because of something like the Three Laws of Robotics by Asimov, Like something from the Terminator movies, or something in between where we distrust each other but can only move forward by making compromises with each other?
 
Since computers are a huge source of discussion on this subject... Yeah, back when Traveller came out, computers were the size of a room. Now my cheap Android phone can outperform one of those computers to the point that it might be kind of amusing if not just out right amazing.
Since we were JUST speaking of ROBOTS, I thought an image of the computer required to run the GOOGLE AI might be worth a look ...
2020-05-20-image-22-j_1100.webp


Yeah, the very concept of a computer the size of a room at THIS TL is utterly ridiculous for something like a Starship!
I mean THIS is all you need to pass the Turing Test in 2024!
 
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Since we were JUST speaking of ROBOTS, I thought an image of the computer required to run the GOOGLE AI might be worth a look ...
2020-05-20-image-22-j_1100.webp


Yeah, the very concept of a computer the size of a room at THIS TL is utterly ridiculous for something like a Starship!
I mean THIS is all you need to pass the Turing Test in 2024!
So the progression of AI to robot brain size does actually show an early Traveller game mechanic of miniaturization.

I really like the progression of CPU to parallel which was hardly a thing by LBB8 to synaptic so I build the ship computers out of that. Of course they end up being much cheaper singly, so I make 12+ of them as redundant failover nodes and implant them all over the ship, and they have the resilience of the CT computer damage mechanic rather then -1 model per HG.

Such a multinode arrangement also makes it tougher to take over the ships computer except by master console/root account access.

The other IMTU mechanic is that the ship computers have INT equal to their model number. By TL10 they are 4 so not going to do well problem solving on their own but good enough for the explicit command and having adaptive engineering.

The rest of the computer budget/space/power goes to sensors.
 
When the science is no longer fiction how do describe what you are playing as science fiction?

Remember 40+ years ago when we gave the size of computers a pass because <reasons>

It go to the point that the size and game mechanics of computers was being widely ridiculed and putting people off.

Mu contention is that the real world rose of what is called AI and its use in robots and drones is going to cause another wave of taking the piss out of Traveller.

Note they changed the computer rules by MrgaTraveller...

More personally I don't like the T2k, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a limited nuclear war in Europe at the turn of the century, so my version of the backstory is it is set a few years from now (thinking of a backstory is trivial thanks to real world).

It is called 2000 because your squad starts the game with 2000 rounds of ammunition,, 2000 MRE and 2000 gallons of fuel.
I expect to see a hostile nuclear detonation somewhere on a major city.

2000 MREs? 2000 gallons of fuel? May, your setup is very generous. I'm sure we had 2000 rounds (more likely 5000k+ if you were with vehicles), but I don't recall having more than about 500-600 gallons of fuel and MREs were probably a few hundred.
 
I expect to see a hostile nuclear detonation somewhere on a major city.

2000 MREs? 2000 gallons of fuel? May, your setup is very generous. I'm sure we had 2000 rounds (more likely 5000k+ if you were with vehicles), but I don't recall having more than about 500-600 gallons of fuel and MREs were probably a few hundred.
We were playing the recent version and we were scrabbling for food day to day. Ended up going crazy missions just to get some chow.

Stealing fuel and rides is big.
 
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